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Crimson2005
02-15-2009, 03:11 AM
I hope you're happy Master Storm and co. You've had 4 years to make progress and it's actually gone backwards. How did you do it? I didn't even know that was possible, it really is astonishing. Abysmal playercount, awful hit detection and clueless staff are just a few of the hundreds problems on Classic right now, I can't list them all as Christmas is coming.

Classic could literally be weeks away from being removed, yet it's getting even worse. I hope you're pleased with it, Storm. It's pretty much all your fault in my opinion and probably not mine alone. You've had 4 years, tell us your excuse and how you can justify 4 years of nothing.

On Classic we have a Hit Detection which can't detect hits. We have had more movement systems than quests. The quests that have been released have been sub-par at best and redone a few times I think too. Really don't deserve any players, can you blame us for playing elsewhere?

Some of us have expressed how we feel already yet it seems it just falls on deaf ears. This thread is going to be for people to write in how they feel about Classic and the direction it's going in. Staff and Developers of Classic take note.

xnervNATx
02-15-2009, 03:14 AM
ive been hiding this for some time but, i honestly think master storm want classic to die . no matter what we say , he doesnt give a sht. And i really think the staff there are not even giving their 100% to make classic update , wtf is this joke releasing a dumb npc called love , all its does is put heart on top of your head , were you working on that for past months?

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 03:39 AM
Of course Storm doesn't want the server to die. I'll agree that he has been partly to blame for its current state due to his indecisiveness, but you can't put all the fault on his shoulders. Look at the LAT team, they've spent the last years trying to one up their predecessors, erasing some good work and potential quests. Add to that the whole division was in complete chaos, there was no communication with any other person so it took weeks instead of days to complete simple projects. I'll even take part of the blame, I spent all these years criticizing the teams without really offering my abilities to help out (the times I held a position, I was in it merely to work on my own projects, and I'd submit my scraps as work).

Right now they've got someone in place who is actually doing something for a change. I've talked to Thor on a few issues, and he and whoever is on his team seems to be willing to reach a middle ground between the newbies asking for new content, and the oldbies demanding everything be left how it was. Hell, he is even open to player created quests (or thats what I was lead to believe) which I'm willing to do. If you feel Classic has been wronged, why don't you get off your collective asses and work on something to help redeem the server?

Kill
02-15-2009, 04:04 AM
The "new" HD is appauling.
I get flawed in some spars and cannot hit anyone in CTF.
It is an absolute joke and I hope it gets removed as soon as possible. This is not a HD, it is a mockery of Classic and everything about the server.

The HD is supposed to be the most important part of Classic; since that is what you predominantly do on the server: Spar, PK, and events. Clearly this is not the case as it is not taking into account the majority feeling of the change, (90% are not happy with the new HD. Click source: HERE (http://gc.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=958&page=1))

If pretty much everyone (excluding who made it) hates the HD, then they won't play the server. Simple. That explains why Classic's playercount has decreased all of a sudden, and won't get back up until this HD is sorted out because without the HD the server is virtually unplayable.

I agree with Xaphan's post entirely. Along with Xaphan (although a bit earlier) I started Graal/Classic 4-5 years ago, and I've seen the changes it's gone through, and I've seen the failures that have come and gone, but Storm has been the center of it all and has focussed on his "life" more than Classic, his care factor wasn't there or else he would've left his position long ago - someone else which was more active would have taken his spot and fixed things, made better decisions, hired people who aren't idiots and make Classic go in the right direction.

Over the past 5 years I've seen virtually no change in Classic, there have been no quests or anything major. It's always been tiny minor releases which have made the players angry, frustrated and made them realise that over the past half-decade there has been nothing major added. So what have they been doing all this time?! created a crappy unplayable HD, that's what.

The problem with Classic is that it's stuck between it being unable to go back in time and be the same as the successful Graal2001 version it was back in the day but also not with the current times. It's stuck inbetween those two eras and failing at being either one.

Rufus
02-15-2009, 04:09 AM
I'll agree that he has been partly to blame for its current state due to his indecisiveness, but you can't put all the fault on his shoulders. Look at the LAT team, they've spent the last years trying to one up their predecessors, erasing some good work and potential quests. Add to that the whole division was in complete chaos, there was no communication with any other person so it took weeks instead of days to complete simple projects. I'll even take part of the blame, I spent all these years criticizing the teams without really offering my abilities to help out (the times I held a position, I was in it merely to work on my own projects, and I'd submit my scraps as work).

Right now they've got someone in place who is actually doing something for a change. I've talked to Thor on a few issues, and he and whoever is on his team seems to be willing to reach a middle ground between the newbies asking for new content, and the oldbies demanding everything be left how it was. Hell, he is even open to player created quests (or thats what I was lead to believe) which I'm willing to do. If you feel Classic has been wronged, why don't you get off your collective asses and work on something to help redeem the server?

You have got to be kidding. The two people who have posted in this thread above you are players of the server and have been regular and consistent players for years. They have stuck through the crap, unlike the rest of you older players who come in every couple of months and decide to give your opinion. These people are players, not developers and as far as I know they have no development capabilities nor should they need them. The point of the thread was pretty obviously outlining the regression within recent years alone. It really has little to do with Massokre or Hell Raven, because these players played through those times and it isn't built up angst originating from those ex staff members. They've got someone in who is doing something? Yeah, regressing it more and adding crappy replacements or incentives to log on.

Within nearly a year we've had two quests, bowling, a new hit detection, and the recently added map system. We had the hearts already, we had the Knife of Fiends already, so all we really gained out of the exhausting content was the hammer, which was scripted back when Massokre was around. We had a hit detection, but now because it has completely changed the regulars can't enjoy the regular activities they did and it really is not a case of adjusting. Bowling was terribly made and I've already explained that, and the map system is something that is terribly easy to do, so really what is positively coming out of this? It's pretty much all regression of content like what was said in the opening post.

Players should not have to develop to enjoy the activities they were doing for years while the staff teams ****ed around, they should be playing with consistency.

DustyPorViva
02-15-2009, 04:18 AM
If you feel Classic has been wronged, why don't you get off your collective asses and work on something to help redeem the server?
Sorry, but Graal is advertised as a game, and to the average player, they should never have to worry about 'helping' a server be fun.

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 04:38 AM
Sorry, but Graal is advertised as a game, and to the average player, they should never have to worry about 'helping' a server be fun.if they want to have fun they shouldn't be playing a server under development. Complaining about this is only a waste of energy, if you truely want something done, you can lend a hand.

DustyPorViva
02-15-2009, 04:41 AM
if they want to have fun they shouldn't be playing a server under development. Complaining about this is only a waste of energy, if you truely want something done, you can lend a hand.
What are you talking about? Server under development? Any server on the Cclassic list is not 'under development'. It's there as a representative server of Graal and should be treated as such. People have to pay for access to the classic servers, so they're paying for Classic as well. If it's under development it should be an UC server that's not on the main list.

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 04:50 AM
What are you talking about? Server under development? Any server on the Cclassic list is not 'under development'. It's there as a representative server of Graal and should be treated as such. People have to pay for access to the classic servers, so they're paying for Classic as well. If it's under development it should be an UC server that's not on the main list.You're just arguing semantics. You and I both know the server is under development. If you're arguing that it should be hidden while it is in development, then you'll have no objections from me, but trying to argue its current status based on where it is listed seems stupid, and I won't accept that as an arguement.

DustyPorViva
02-15-2009, 04:58 AM
You're just arguing semantics. You and I both know the server is under development. If you're arguing that it should be hidden while it is in development, then you'll have no objections from me, but trying to argue its current status based on where it is listed seems stupid, and I won't accept that as an arguement.
Online servers are always being developed. Always additions, always fixes, that does not mean they are 'under development'. Now, I agree, Classic seems to be more under development than being a live developing server... but that is no players responsibility. As long as it is on the classic server list it should not be recognized as under development. So you can especially not claim that to players who are paying for access to it. You have to think about how a new player, who has never browsed the forums or ever heard of Graal is going to see things. They try out Graal, see a list of servers to try out and log on Classic. It does not mention 'under development' anywhere. Oh no, their 4 whole ****ing hours of observer time has ran out, but they want to see more so they pay for an upgrade. They have no idea they're paying for a server that is under development until they really start getting into things and seeing how much of a true mess Classic is.

Sorry, but Graal is a game foremost as well as a business. If people are having to pay for access to this game, they should never have to worry about needing to develop to actually have fun on it. As far as it appears now, Classic is one of the servers that represents the Graal business model, and will be treated as such until someone wises up and removes it.

Luda
02-15-2009, 08:43 AM
Hey Stefan, just curious..do you ever read these threads?

Ares
02-15-2009, 09:06 AM
i cant imagine how fun classic events would be with the default hd

Crono
02-15-2009, 02:23 PM
Hey Stefan, just curious..do you ever read these threads?

Why would he care?

Mighty
02-15-2009, 02:24 PM
I'd hate to see this but I think Classic needs to be moved from the server list to UC but still being accessible by non gold members (wich I'm sure is possible) so it doesn't prevent players and those who want to develop from logging in. Although I'm afraid if it were to be moved that it wouldn't come back + that it would take a lot of time and I'm not refering to quality but haven't you noticed we've only had two developers for a long time. Those of you with development skill who complain or really want to see something happend to Classic why don't you help them. As far as I know pretty much all the latest releases has been made by Thor alone who actually deserves credit. He didn't give up like many other, he keeps going even though many of you give him a lot of crap. Sure some releases are to be argueable and wrong if you believe so but what do you really expect from a two-man/one man team.

Back to the moving part. Once there is enough new good content, announce it and then move it back. I believe this would bring a far much bigger playercount than there has been lately.

Imagine the server being "gone" for a while and then brought back, once back you read about it and would of course log on to check it out. Then you notice a major release like for example a full player-reset wich would make events etc more competetive, a start with level1 sword, 3 hearts and your the way to quest up to what we currently have.

I don't know about you but I'd find it very interesting. A release like what I stated as an example might not need the server being removed though, I don't know, but it's important that it all gets released together.

xnervNATx
02-15-2009, 03:33 PM
I'd hate to see this but I think Classic needs to be moved from the server list to UC but still being accessible by non gold members (wich I'm sure is possible) so it doesn't prevent players and those who want to develop from logging in. Although I'm afraid if it were to be moved that it wouldn't come back + that it would take a lot of time and I'm not refering to quality but haven't you noticed we've only had two developers for a long time. Those of you with development skill who complain or really want to see something happend to Classic why don't you help them. As far as I know pretty much all the latest releases has been made by Thor alone who actually deserves credit. He didn't give up like many other, he keeps going even though many of you give him a lot of crap. Sure some releases are to be argueable and wrong if you believe so but what do you really expect from a two-man/one man team.

Back to the moving part. Once there is enough new good content, announce it and then move it back. I believe this would bring a far much bigger playercount than there has been lately.

Imagine the server being "gone" for a while and then brought back, once back you read about it and would of course log on to check it out. Then you notice a major release like for example a full player-reset wich would make events etc more competetive, a start with level1 sword, 3 hearts and your the way to quest up to what we currently have.

I don't know about you but I'd find it very interesting. A release like what I stated as an example might not need the server being removed though, I don't know, but it's important that it all gets released together.


id find it interesting too but you know that if the server is moved to UC its will still be dead even after its come back . yet i dont think its would come back. Still the level 1 sword and 3hp is a good idea. And to answer maximus first post , why dont YOU go and help the server? i never saw you help it , all you do is shttalk about us sitting on ours a**. if i had any experience i would go and help classic dev , but i have none , surprising? i dont thing so. and for someone that log on classic once in a month , i dont think you have right to say anything about us.

about the hd , i think your right kill , even in ctf sumo people can hardly hit me in the water , ask mystic i turned around him for about 10 seconds before he hit me in the water. And about all these polls , 90% are just useless.

Crimson2005
02-15-2009, 05:13 PM
i cant imagine how fun classic events would be with the default hd

Have you tried this new HD in events? Fun is the last thing that comes from it.

DustyPorViva
02-15-2009, 06:13 PM
The only problem I have with Classic going UC is that it might not ever come back.

Rufus
02-15-2009, 06:15 PM
The only problem I have with Classic going UC is that it might not ever come back.

That is not a problem, someone capable will pick it up some day.

xnervNATx
02-15-2009, 07:26 PM
That is not a problem, someone capable will pick it up some day.


i hope that person is not named thor or whitedragon

Rufus
02-15-2009, 07:31 PM
i hope that person is not named thor or whitedragon

I said someone capable.

Ares
02-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Have you tried this new HD in events? Fun is the last thing that comes from it.

i dont think i have, there's usually 5-6 people on the server so there's no events being held

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 08:01 PM
just like someone capable will eventually pick up Graal2001 :(

Rufus
02-15-2009, 08:11 PM
just like someone capable will eventually pick up Graal2001 :(

Yeah, like the day when you start posting unpredictable responses.

Bell
02-15-2009, 09:21 PM
I'm trying very hard to keep an unbiased and impersonal attitude towards Classic but after 8 years and over 10,000 hours of actual play time there, you'll forgive me my slip, I hope. If it weren't for Thor, Classic would of been gone a long time ago. I often wonder why he still tries as hard as he does to please all of you when he gets nothing but grief. To be totally honest with you all, Rufus and Thor would make a great team but I can't even begin to imagine that being a team that could work together without killing each other. Hence killing Classic even more.

I'm currently trying my best to find a good solution for Classic but I will readily admit, I don't forsee a good outcome in the future as long as Thor tries to continue to please the oldbies as well as try to draw in new people to build a new community.

xnervNATx
02-15-2009, 09:28 PM
how can he please us with npc such as Love* idont think new players will just stay because you can throw hearts in 4 directions . he had the chance to please everyone when he became dev admin , he failed and now classic is at his lowest

DarkCloud_PK
02-15-2009, 09:35 PM
the love npc has been around way longer than thor has been in staff.
i think storm made it a very long time ago.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 09:41 PM
hey guys, i know i don't post here often but for those of you who don't know me, i'm Ranger, i recently came back to classic as FAQ Admin, and i've been playing for roughly 7 or 8 years now.

i've watched and supported each development team that has passed through for the past few years. Thor is surprisingly doing the best, but that can mostly be contributed to the loudest voices being silenced via inactivity. i've always been of the opinion that storm should be removed and honestly, i'm wondering why PWA hasn't done it yet. his gross negligence is causing extreme duress amongst many and he has done nothing good that i can recall. any progress has come out of the Dev Admins, and THAT progress is always criticized by the community that it is given to. i'm not saying that that criticism isn't deserved but it sure as hell effects server morale. and right now, morale is at it's all-time lowest.

i left classic because i was frustrated with the tatsumi's handling of the FAQ team. i have heard several theories about why i came back, but the truth is i wanted to come back to see if i could make a difference somehow. what classic REALLY needs is a revamp of it's staff divisions. if the staff divisions can coordinate and compromise between each other then there would be no need for a manager. first of all, we would have to get at least 1 new administrator, i know nighty always comes around when things pick up. some people would like to see him removed but i don't see him as an extreme problem.

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 09:55 PM
Yeah, like the day when you start posting unpredictable responses.I just find it funny how you have pretty much the same track record running Graal2001 as Storm has had with Classic (yours is probably slightly better) and you're here criticizing him. When is Graal2001's release date?

xnervNATx
02-15-2009, 09:56 PM
lol ranger ur right when you say storm need to be removed.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 10:02 PM
imo they should unban mog and get him to create a classic gscript tutorial

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:02 PM
OK im just furious.
For 1, i dont care if maximus asinus knows me, doesnt knows me, cares or doesnt care. All i know is he doesnt have room to post because HE DOESNT PLAY CLASSIC ANYMORE.

Classic is bullsh** PERIOD. You have a manager who is ALL TALK AND NO SHOW (and his talk is even bullsh!t). HE HAS DONE NOTHING. Thor has done quadruple the ammount MASTER STORM HAS EVEN THOUGHT OF DOING.

THOR ISNT THE PROBLEM. MASTER STORM IS. Give us a new god damn manager NOW!. Why does UN, ERA, Zodiac, and even NPULSE get new Managers to give a go @ the server. ANYONE, and i meen, ANYONE would be better then master storm. He doesnt do jack ****, but watch the server die. I dont care if you guys dont know a suitable replacement, GET ONE.

THOR ill admit, is one of the hardest working devs. The only problem with Thor is, HE DOESNT KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE RELEAED AT WHAT TIME. He has the skill and work ethic, but honestly has no idea what he should be doing. He needs a manager and others, to tell his ass what to do becasue what hes doing isnt helping anyhting.

Im dead serious, im not playing this server anymore until you lazy globals get off your @#!# and fire master storm and give us the manager (or at least try) that we deserve.

And if you dont care that a player like me, or other players like me are quitting? Then !$# you and gtfo because you should.

ASINUS SHUT UP!!! U - HAV - NO - IDEA , go back to ugcc

Crimson2005
02-15-2009, 10:05 PM
I am going to repeat myself: 4 years of nothing.

Let's look at what has has released so far in the Thor/Storm era. Bowling which was fun for a couple of days then everyone lost interest, A gimped hit detection that doesnt detect hits, 2 quests that we had to do to get the hearts we already had back, a map system where we already had the maps. Thor released the hammer, which he himself didn't make, just released. Our most recent addition was the Love NPC that's going to last for a couple of days which again, he apparently didn't even make, just released. All that has done is make Classic regress, not progress. I think it's also safe to say that the whole development team does not have a clue.

Why can't everyone see that Classic can not seriously move forward with Master Storm and Thor at the core of it? Master Storm is seriously spineless with his developers and always has been for as long as I've played.

I'd also like to hear from Thor himself in this thread, not the people he's getting to post for him. :)

maximus_asinus
02-15-2009, 10:09 PM
stupidityWhile you were typing this post I was PKing in level14 and winning an LMS. Where were you?

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:12 PM
not playing classics trash HD, i havent seen you in months if not years, just shut up dude. Has your way of thinking improved classic? NO! Your just like a washed up republican who still wants to dump money into the iraqi war, gtfo.
WE WANT CHANGE WE WANT CHANGE WE WANT CHANGE WE WANT CHANGE WE WANT CHANGE

Remonq
02-15-2009, 10:17 PM
ya know oni, if you were actually able to calm down, make sense and act mature people might actually listen to you. you are pointing out all the problems but offering no solutions whatsoever. okay, we get rid of storm, then what? you are not thinking ahead sufficiently enough

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:30 PM
You want a decision? You cant handle it but here it goes.

Make Rufus Dev Admin(Do u see what him and dusty do with bomy?!). Make Zip manager (his ideas are actually good but i dont kno if hes joking) Ranger your fine as a Faq admin. Get all the staff together, talk about what we want and what we need. Release, work, release, work, Motivate the people, get everyone involved, AND ATTEMPT A TRUE REVIVAL.

thor can stick around, but he's not the type to be making decisions, he just needs to be told what to do.

DarkCloud_PK
02-15-2009, 10:33 PM
You want a decision? You cant handle it but here it goes.

Make Rufus Dev Admin(Do u see what him and dusty do with bomy?!).

No. Rufus isnt a developer, and while maximus attacks him for it, he's right. No, I dont see what he and dusty do with bomy island, because it isnt done, theres no expected release, and its been like that for awhile. Is that what you want? Things to be stagnant some more like that?

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:40 PM
Bomy is kind of a UC SERVER?
maybe if the server was live such as Classic, there would be more motivation to put out work.

DarkCloud_PK
02-15-2009, 10:43 PM
Bomy is kind of a UC SERVER?
maybe if the server was live such as Classic, there would be more motivation to put out work.

There isnt very much more motiviation left. Until recently anyway.
Bottom line is, things really don't matter until they're completed and released.

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:46 PM
Trust me i bet Rufus would much rather manage classic over bomy island if he got the chance.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 10:46 PM
rufus has a very destructive nature about him. classic would suffer more under him and that's not what we need

Oni
02-15-2009, 10:51 PM
ranger get real

Rufus
02-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I just find it funny how you have pretty much the same track record running Graal2001 as Storm has had with Classic (yours is probably slightly better) and you're here criticizing him. When is Graal2001's release date?

Yeah, it really is hilarious. Some guy who got pushed into a position he never really wanted criticizing someone else who is supposed to be doing the same job for the server the guy played on for years? Real funny. The thing is though, I am not comparable to Storm at all and Graal2001 is not comparable to Classic either. If I asked for manager of Graal2001 and it was up on the Classic serverlist and instead of working on it I let the players slowly fade away, sure I'd accept that as a dig. Unlike Storm however, I haven't been manager for 4 years, not even half, and Graal2001 isn't on the serverlist, isn't open to the public, and hasn't received an abundance of complaints from players that have fell on deaf ears. I haven't gone for the last resort in terms of staffing, haven't disappeared for months on end, and I don't log on once a month to catch up on things to then do nothing. Hey you're totally right, holy crap I have the same track record as Master Storm!!

As I haven't directly criticized Storm in this thread, I don't see how what you said was relevant to begin with. I did suggest that both WhiteDragon and Thor were incapable of managing the server though, and I stand by it and apparently I'm not the only person who thinks that. When Stefan decided he wanted to port Classic to the iPhone, why is it that instead of going to the Classic staff he asked the Graal2001 staff to work on it? Why is it that before Thor became Dev Admin, I was asked if I was interested in the position, but declined because I had just became LAT on Graal2001 while Thor had to suck up and provide a design document to Storm to get his position? Perhaps they would make great managers, but I can imagine McDonalds is filled with staff in these current economic times.

Classic wasn't a revival project until very recently, Graal2001 is a complete revival remake of the original server. The amount of work that needs doing on Bomy Island is massive compared to the work that is needed on Classic. If it was a case of releasing two quests and a few NPCs a year, the server would be out and thriving, but that is not the case for Graal2001. You think that I can't say my opinion on the deterioration of Classic because I'm working on a server that is taking a large amount of time to get released? Your own track record is pretty weak (where is Graal2000?) yet you still feel the need to criticize others material, then criticize people who have projects that are actually alive and criticize others? That is funny.

Luda
02-15-2009, 10:56 PM
Why would he care?

Well..isn't he the one who made Master Storm Manager?

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:03 PM
ranger get real

i don't mean he likes to delete files randomly off servers oni. it's his nature that i'm talking about. Rufus is very good at controlling people and telling them what to do. however, he is somewhat of a manipulator and people see through it eventually. those people that do, he ends up hindering and through that hindrance comes very little progress and a loss of support overall.

Rufus
02-15-2009, 11:05 PM
i don't mean he likes to delete files randomly off servers oni. it's his nature that i'm talking about. Rufus is very good at controlling people and telling them what to do. however, he is somewhat of a manipulator and people see through it eventually. those people that do, he ends up hindering and through that hindrance comes very little progress and a loss of support overall.

He's right you do need to get real, unless you're going to throw some examples. I don't want to work on Classic, but I'm glad someone finally posted this comment for Thor so it can be addressed nicely :)

Oni
02-15-2009, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Remonq
i don't mean he likes to delete files randomly off servers oni. it's his nature that i'm talking about. Rufus is very good at controlling people and telling them what to do. however, he is somewhat of a manipulator and people see through it eventually. those people that do, he ends up hindering and through that hindrance comes very little progress and a loss of support overall.

(no idea how to quote)

Ranger maybe he is a manipulator and all. But doesnt meen thats always a bad thing, all of you who hate him think ANYONE WHO REMOTELY likes him or is his friend, is just under some kind of mind control.
Seriously some people just agree with rufus, and im partly one of them. I dont 100% agree with everything rufus has to say, but I would sure as hell put him as DEv admin or even manager. I would see progress and a fresh classic.
Your oldbie mentality is what got classic to were it is AFTER npc server

Rufus
02-15-2009, 11:13 PM
Ranger maybe he is a manipulator and all. But doesnt meen thats always a bad thing, all of you who hate him think ANYONE WHO REMOTELY likes him or is his friend, is just under some kind of mind control.
Seriously some people just agree with rufus, and im partly one of them. I dont 100 percent agree with everything rufus has to say, but I would sure as hell put him as DEv admin or even manager. I would see progress and a fresh classic.
Your oldbie mentality is what got classic to were it is AFTER npc server
No no you changed completely when you met me. We don't argue all of the time on AIM about ideas, you listen to everything I have to say, and you act to how I want you to act now. You don't have a brain of your own anymore Oni, so your comments are pretty much void.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:18 PM
precisely what i was talking about

Rufus
02-15-2009, 11:18 PM
precisely what i was talking about

LMAO. caps

Oni
02-15-2009, 11:21 PM
please globals, please get rid of master storm, please.
I have had so many conversations with him, and it seems that he doesnt even want to be classics manager, hes just full of excuses and has other things to do.
Just help classic out please.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:22 PM
no i'm serious, anyone who disagrees or threatens you, you break down and discredit. and then of course, you get your lackeys to back you up

Rufus
02-15-2009, 11:22 PM
no i'm serious, anyone who disagrees or threatens you, you break down and discredit. and then of course, you get your lackeys to back you up

Example? Oh and why did you suddenly find this forum again and start posting?

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:25 PM
suddenly? because i'm concerned about classic. please, i'm far too concerned with more important things than you.

DarkCloud_PK
02-15-2009, 11:29 PM
lets try to concentrate on the issues concerning classic and not rufus.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:31 PM
thank you dc, you're right

Rufus
02-15-2009, 11:32 PM
suddenly? because i'm concerned about classic. please, i'm far too concerned with more important things than you.

You have the audacity to come onto these forums out of nowhere and claim that I manipulate breakdown and discredit people while getting my friends to back me up, while you were given the link to this thread for a reason and can't even support what you're saying? It is pretty obvious that you were told to post, and the content that you are posting has been sent to me quite a few times and they've all come from one person who has been saying it. It is ironic that you make a claim that I am the one who manipulates people into supporting me, while you're doing exactly the same for someone else. The hilarious thing about it is I've never asked anyone to post something for me, because I am very capable of supporting myself.

Cut the crap because what you're posting is far too obvious, and if you actually do care about Classic then post about it.

Remonq
02-15-2009, 11:35 PM
i was given a link, shown the thread, and that's all. i wasn't told to post, i wasn't fed any lines like you would like to think. i do care about classic, and you NOT being manager or admin is critical. that's all i was posting about

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 01:41 AM
Master Storm is a huge problem for Classic. I hated working under him, and I really wanted to help Classic but after working under him I gave that up.

Thor is a hard-working developer, but he has a hard time taking criticism, and his stuff shows it.

-Ramirez-
02-16-2009, 02:01 AM
I hated working under him, and I really wanted to help Classic but after working under him I gave that up.
I'm pretty sure this was a huge part of what made me stop a long time ago as well.

maximus_asinus
02-16-2009, 02:12 AM
What exactly did Storm do to make you feel that way?

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 02:27 AM
Well first off he was NEVER there. He gave me NO assignments, NO rights. I wanted to rescript the default map for him, he told me it wasn't needed. So he didn't even give me the needed rights(I couldn't upload images, I had only access to one NPC to script). After a couple months of getting help from BELL, I finally just quit with nothing accomplished. I couldn't do anything and he was never around nor told me anything to do. Months later, lo and behold he allowed someone else to rescript the map.

maximus_asinus
02-16-2009, 02:28 AM
Well first off he was NEVER there. He gave me NO assignments, NO rights. I wanted to rescript the default map for him, he told me it wasn't needed. So he didn't even give me the needed rights(I couldn't upload images, I had only access to one NPC to script). After a couple months of getting help from BELL, I finally just quit with nothing accomplished. I couldn't do anything and he was never around nor told me anything to do. Months later, lo and behold he allowed someone else to rescript the map.Don't you think these are issues the LAT Admin should be dealing with?

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 02:40 AM
Don't you think these are issues the LAT Admin should be dealing with?
What does the LAT admin have to do with anything?
And no, MS does nothing else, least he can do is actually manage the staff.

Rufus
02-16-2009, 02:42 AM
What does the LAT admin have to do with anything?
And no, MS does nothing else, least he can do is actually manage the staff.

There wasn't a LAT or Development Admin when you were staff.

-Ramirez-
02-16-2009, 03:09 AM
What exactly did Storm do to make you feel that way?
In my case, it was partially the fact that Stefan just put him there out of absolutely nowhere from my perspective. It was rather insulting. Also, I do seem to recall frequent disagreements, but it was so long ago that I don't know for sure.

maximus_asinus
02-16-2009, 04:13 AM
What does the LAT admin have to do with anything?
And no, MS does nothing else, least he can do is actually manage the staff.It seems like all the stuff you mentioned would be the responsibility of the LAT Admin, not the Manager (we must have very different thoughts on what the Manager does on a server).

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 04:18 AM
It seems like all the stuff you mentioned would be the responsibility of the LAT Admin, not the Manager (we must have very different thoughts on what the Manager does on a server).
Why would the LAT manager be in charge of assignments and rights of a scripter? What should a manager do? A manager manages the server, that includes the staff and all content on it.

maximus_asinus
02-16-2009, 04:25 AM
Why would the LAT manager be in charge of assignments and rights of a scripter? What should a manager do? A manager manages the server, that includes the staff and all content on it.I believe a Manager controls the hirings and firings of division leads, ensures the people under him/her are doing their jobs, and various other backroom activities. I believe the LAT Admin should be incharge of projects, the Manager would have to approve them first. The Manager gives the LAT Admin enough rights to do these things (or that seems to be the case on Classic).

Motherat
02-16-2009, 04:33 AM
I believe a Manager controls the hirings and firings of division leads, ensures the people under him/her are doing their jobs, and various other backroom activities. I believe the LAT Admin should be incharge of projects, the Manager would have to approve them first. The Manager gives the LAT Admin enough rights to do these things (or that seems to be the case on Classic).

NEDM
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm133/Motherat/400px-Nedm-hc.jpg

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 04:34 AM
I believe a Manager controls the hirings and firings of division leads, ensures the people under him/her are doing their jobs, and various other backroom activities. I believe the LAT Admin should be incharge of projects, the Manager would have to approve them first. The Manager gives the LAT Admin enough rights to do these things (or that seems to be the case on Classic).
Manager should be very involved in the server. This includes hirings, projects, staff and just about everything. They don't need to be able to develop, but they need to actually manage and look over everything. Just like any manager of a store would do. LAT's tend to deal strictly with levels, while developers usually look over whole projects and different areas of development.

DarkCloud_PK
02-16-2009, 04:44 AM
classic really hasnt had a LAT/Scripter divide for awhile now, probably nearly as long as storm has been around. All developers, be it levels/scripts/graphics and i think there was an audio at one point, answered to one dev admin.

Bell
02-16-2009, 05:53 AM
I think Dusty was there between dev admins but normally on Classic it would of been the dev Admin to give him rights. Thor was working there then but doing more GC related things I believe. Each staff division is under the direction of their Admin with Manager mostly just making sure everyone is doing their jobs and supporting them when needed.

And when all else failed they came to me as Dusty said. I'm a Bell of all trades.

xnervNATx
02-16-2009, 07:27 AM
Thor is a hard-working developer, but he has a hard time taking criticism, and his stuff shows it.

can you exactly tell me what you mean by "his stuffs" if we get back to xaphan post you can see he made nothing but uploaded pre-made npc made months ago.

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 07:44 AM
can you exactly tell me what you mean by "his stuffs" if we get back to xaphan post you can see he made nothing but uploaded pre-made npc made months ago.
Thor is the one doing the hit detection, the baddies and such.

Kill
02-16-2009, 01:12 PM
about the hd , i think your right kill , even in ctf sumo people can hardly hit me in the water
Funny you say that, because 2 days ago during CTF X-Sumo I was able to run rings around Gemini, some other noob and Gladius, it was so incredibly easy to just dodge their hits, even though I clearly saw them hit me - I wasn't "hit". I was eventually hit out by Darkus.

Sure, this gave me an advantage but that's my point: it's no longer a game if it's THAT easy to just grab the flag and run away. Theres no longer any need of "skills".
The disadvantage of this is that it's now incredibly hard to chase and kill a flag holder, in fact it's virtually impossible without the support of 2 or more team members.

maximus_asinus
02-16-2009, 08:02 PM
Yeah, I am going to agree about the HD. I was in a LMS a few days ago and I clearly hit two or three people but because they were moving away from me it didn't count as a hit. At one point I swung, missed my intended target, but another player walked into me midswing and I killed them.

Crimson2005
02-16-2009, 08:09 PM
Yeah, I am going to agree about the HD. I was in a LMS a few days ago and I clearly hit two or three people but because they were moving away from me it didn't count as a hit.

Yes, that is my biggest grievance about the HD. I wish they'd just use an HD that works instead of messing around with everything, I'm not really arsed about whether it is clientside or whatever. Just use something that ****ing works, this does not work. It's not a case of adjusting this either so don't think it is...

DustyPorViva
02-16-2009, 08:31 PM
Apparently they were given the original numbers(used in default) for the HD that Stefan used but they didn't implement them. I could be wrong, though.

Ares
02-16-2009, 09:02 PM
Yes, that is my biggest grievance about the HD. I wish they'd just use an HD that works instead of messing around with everything, I'm not really arsed about whether it is clientside or whatever. Just use something that ****ing works, this does not work. It's not a case of adjusting this either so don't think it is...

time to bring in the old faithful default hd

Rufus
02-16-2009, 10:39 PM
time to bring in the old faithful default hd

If the default hit detection was used then the majority of what Classic has would be wasted. A big example would be the events, which were mainly built around the serverside hit detection. People enjoyed Classic's events and their fairness, some even said they were the best on Graal at the moment, and they will always be used to keep the server alive. With a change to clientside or default hit detection however, they are never going to be as fun as they were like you've already said.

xnervNATx
02-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Thor is the one doing the hit detection, the baddies and such.

ok about the hd , no one like it but i can understand that
about the baddy , with this new hd you can clearly see baddy hit you more than before if you try to use your sword . its almost impossible to dodge them if they come 4-5 on you . on the defaulthd you could take about 10-11 at time.

Ares
02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
If the default hit detection was used then the majority of what Classic has would be wasted. A big example would be the events, which were mainly built around the serverside hit detection. People enjoyed Classic's events and their fairness, some even said they were the best on Graal at the moment, and they will always be used to keep the server alive. With a change to clientside or default hit detection however, they are never going to be as fun as they were like you've already said.

classic is doomed

Ares
02-16-2009, 11:44 PM
now that i've finally played with this HD, i actually like it.. it's a lot more accurate then the previous one imo

xnervNATx
02-17-2009, 01:16 AM
now that i've finally played with this HD, i actually like it.. it's a lot more accurate then the previous one imo

that not true , that NOT accurate at all.

Ares
02-17-2009, 02:57 AM
the only thing that's bad about the HD is it's impossible to combo, that's it..

K-Dawg
02-17-2009, 04:15 AM
Wow. Ranger is back.

There is way too much wrong with classic. MS does need to be fired I agree with that. In my opinion anyone with a heartbeat that actually is dedicated to classic would be a better fit than him.

I have a very biased opinion because I played when classic was the only server. I honestly think we should have left it how it was. Improving upon the quests, adding to the events, Improving upon levels.... All that good stuff. It would bring in more 'new' people. Hell, I only play UN because it had a decent amount of people when I started on it. The server is a peice of garbage.

HD system is absolutly ridiculous. I dont know why they continue to make that one system their 'selling point'.

Classic is dead... And Ive come to terms with that. ****, I liked the things tyhm did about 1000000000000 times more.

MysticX2X
02-17-2009, 05:13 AM
Alright, so I'm going to give my own point of view. I hope some people will actually read this.

While Storm is Manager, terribly being one as well, he can't do much to save it now. There is also not much changes you can without straying from the Classic perspective. I have told Master Storm he should probably quit if this many people are actually having serious problems with his management. He still believes he has a responsibility towards that server although nobody is asking him to have one. I will agree with him on that he can't pleasure everybody, but then again, who is he pleasuring? EDIT: I will vouch for Storm when i say he is one of the more willing managers to talk to players on Classic. Unlike any UN Manager, even the current one, who has just made me loathe UN more and more.

I also asked him about the server going UC idea, but he said that wouldn't be a good idea as well, which i can sort of agree with because of the fact nothing is happening on Classic now, and going UC would only reduce the will power of the current staff. Era's going UC and coming back was successful though so who knows, but that was back then when there were more developers. People making the argument that players shouldn't have to have the thought of trying to contribute? This game was created based around the fact that it is all player created. Everyone in this thread could contribute something to the server, if you have this much time to complain.

Yeah some things would happen with a new manager, but not much to preserve Classic. How many of you people would complain if some dramatic change happened to Classic that resulted in an old level being removed? You'd be furious even though it could be for the greater good. A **** load of people complained when Burger refuge was removed for an ice ring though that level was weird anyways. I tried suggesting a remake over of Supernicks to suit a centralized spar in Graal city since the more vital locations should be in the hot spot city, while quests and player created levels should be on the outskirts. Storm shot the idea down saying only Supernick can touch that place, which Supernick doesn't care for. I do agree for more quests, and thought about creating levels for that too,

People talk about how Graal the Adventure was so great and better and they would want that back. Yeah it was great back then, but ALL of graal was. I mentioned that in another thread.There is no surefire guarantee that Classic would even get more dedicated players if they commit to a project like GTA now. I used to love UN back then. It has a bulk of the same content it had for years, but the community fell to shreds. (Edit: Lol the whole UN line was cut out somehow) In reality, there would be thousands of levels you'd have to convert. There are a lot of people with scripting capabilities in this thread and past who are complaining about having the old content back. Why not just take a try at it yourself? I have actually talked to Storm about anybody converting the entire old content, and he said he would consider it if someone would actually present that to him. In reality, no one would want to commit their time to that and it's not virtually possible without losing interest. It's not even an idea the dev team should try focusing on since those things are in the past, and future actions should be thought about. Ziplock had some really cool ideas for Classic, with which he shared some with me,, but I don't know if he has enough will power to go on with it.

As for the other admin issue, some measures should be taken as to that. Stryker was on the verge of being removed, he comes back, hires a few GP's, then disappears again making faint appearances. Half his team isn't active, nor has logged on Classic in the past month. HELL, one of his GP's manages Era logging on Classic once every month. Staff dedication mirite?

Night, on the other hand of being a respectable and one of the only liked Admins, rarely logs on Classic. Hell, he doesn't even know who his active GC's are anymore. There are about 10 GC's including Night, and half of them haven't even logged on tag in the past month. I understand this whole people having a life thing, but usually that indicates some have to go.

I find it funny how Oni is complaining so much about Classic when he is a GC who is capable of helping the effort. He doesn't like to acknowledge himself as a GC, but he certainly hasn't came to Night that he wants to quit so Night finally figures out the GC team is suffering. Yes, events are a very important thing to Classic considering that's Classic's backbone right now for anyone's enjoyment. Classic actually averaged 20 ( Even hit a high of 33 people) people today just because the few active GC's were giving some enjoyment to people. Right now, the HD is killing that enjoyment, but serverside HD was more of an inconvenience for us American players. I actually would prefer this over the serverside HD so long as I don't get hit from 20 tiles away by european players. No HD will satisfy anybody tbh. As for people complaining about the HD, default would be even harder for you guys in events such as CTF since you all are accustomed to the s-bash tecnique, and then you would ***** again.

Most of the people here complaining gave up on Classic, and play servers like Era now instead of giving their hand to the relief effort of any sort. Xaphan, you are a GP. You have an RC on Classic. You are capable of handing suggestive ideas via RC to the active dev team as well as give critiques as well since you possess oh so much envy towards the players concerns. Hell you can even start doing your job on Classic.

I also love it how particularly you guys have to single out Thor here. While i usually don't agree with him on some stuff, he is actually doing something for Classic whether it be good or bad, rather than complaining. Rufus, maybe you of all people should be a little more considerate for his work? You don't have to like it, but you should at least acknowledge it's different from the initiative any other Dev on Classic is trying to do. People were complaining about serverside HD. He took his time to make a new one, although perfect yet people still are complaining, even giving up his advantage over the more populated American players. I thought the map idea was actually a good one, though not a dramatic change.

I'm just very tired of seeing player such as Kill and Laura complain about every thing, yet do nothing to help the effort, and instead go and play Era or try to sabotage a GC's events creating a burden on the GC team. They have done it to me several times now.

Wow, that was long.

Luda
02-17-2009, 09:03 AM
holy nerd mystic

Remonq
02-17-2009, 09:58 AM
mystics post was well thought out and constructive luda. i don't see anything wrong with that

-Ramirez-
02-17-2009, 10:44 AM
holy nerd mystic
If being a "nerd" means putting thought into what you're saying, then that's hardly an insult or anything worth pointing out. Your post shows childishness and is a waste of space, his doesn't and is not.

StrykerTFFD
02-17-2009, 12:01 PM
As for the other admin issue, some measures should be taken as to that. Stryker was on the verge of being removed, he comes back, hires a few GP's, then disappears again making faint appearances. Half his team isn't active, nor has logged on Classic in the past month. HELL, one of his GP's manages Era logging on Classic once every month. Staff dedication mirite?


This is the usual post to show you I am paying attention and I already know. Hiring new GPs is a second thought to fixing the player count since I can't really hire without players. I even read somewhere about not banning hackers right away since they boost our player count...that's just silly to me but true.

I did enjoy seeing our player count at 30+ today though. If that was the norm then I could probably hire some GPs out of that player pool.

As for everything else said in the thread I won't openly express my views. Feel free to ask me in private.

Remonq
02-17-2009, 02:40 PM
low playercount doesn't justify low GP count

Crimson2005
02-17-2009, 02:51 PM
Xaphan, you are a GP. You have an RC on Classic. You are capable of handing suggestive ideas via RC to the active dev team as well as give critiques as well since you possess oh so much envy towards the players concerns. Hell you can even start doing your job on Classic.

Hmm, maybe if there was a playercount to actually police I'd do something. However, seeing as it has an average playercount of 10, with those 5 of those being staff and the other 5 is their RCs, I really think it's not worth quite worth it.

I may be a GP but at the same time I want to play the game and have fun. I can't do this right now, infact, a lot of people can't as they feel that they have to develop to have fun. What kind of state is that? Paying to develop someone elses game so yourself can have something to do. No thanks.

I did enjoy seeing our player count at 30+ today though. If that was the norm then I could probably hire some GPs out of that player pool.

Doubt you'd need to as myself and Shimmy would probably come back from playing UN.

Rufus
02-17-2009, 03:50 PM
holy nerd rufus.

There is also not much changes you can without straying from the Classic perspective.

I don't get what you mean here, care to elaborate?

I also asked him about the server going UC idea, but he said that wouldn't be a good idea as well, which i can sort of agree with because of the fact nothing is happening on Classic now, and going UC would only reduce the will power of the current staff.

How would going under construction "reduce the will power" of the staff if it isn't there currently? Players attitudes are a large part of what kills the motivation of staff, and it has been like this for years. A lack of playercount creates a sense of wasted time in producing content. Going hidden would remove distractions, you don't have to entertain players, and you don't have to constantly develop short term where the focus should be long term content. You're not battling against two forms of development, therefore the direction should be clear and quality work should surface as you have more time to consider how it would be received, rather than just releasing it straight away as the players are bored and complaining again.

I don't really see how it is fair to the server itself in keeping it up if you don't believe that if you took it down, it would come back with no problems through the quality of your own content. If that was the case and the content is not suitable for a revival, the content should never be released to the public.

People making the argument that players shouldn't have to have the thought of trying to contribute? This game was created based around the fact that it is all player created. Everyone in this thread could contribute something to the server, if you have this much time to complain.

No, the game was created in a way that you could contribute if you wanted to. In Graal The Adventure you did not have to contribute to development in order to enjoy the game that you paid for. The Classic tab servers are not advertised as a development platform, they're advertised as game servers and like Dusty and myself have already said, should be treated as such. Not everyone in this thread has the ability nor willingness to contribute under current circumstances, and they shouldn't have to either, but that doesn't mean that they can't voice their opinions on the bad direction that the current circumstances are under.

Yeah some things would happen with a new manager, but not much to preserve Classic. How many of you people would complain if some dramatic change happened to Classic that resulted in an old level being removed? You'd be furious even though it could be for the greater good. A **** load of people complained when Burger refuge was removed for an ice ring though that level was weird anyways. I tried suggesting a remake over of Supernicks to suit a centralized spar in Graal city since the more vital locations should be in the hot spot city, while quests and player created levels should be on the outskirts. Storm shot the idea down saying only Supernick can touch that place, which Supernick doesn't care for. I do agree for more quests, and thought about creating levels for that too.

That's what happens when you listen to the older players too much and develop your content based upon their opinions. While these players only turn up once every few months, the actual players of the server get ignored. There needs to be a happy medium, but in order to do that you need developers that understand what that happy medium is. Releasing a "Love" NPC for Valentines day, because it was old content, is not a happy medium. Releasing Bowling without any changes, because it was old content, is not a happy medium. The reactions show, the content is wasted.

I find it funny how Oni is complaining so much about Classic when he is a GC who is capable of helping the effort. He doesn't like to acknowledge himself as a GC, but he certainly hasn't came to Night that he wants to quit so Night finally figures out the GC team is suffering. Yes, events are a very important thing to Classic considering that's Classic's backbone right now for anyone's enjoyment. Classic actually averaged 20 ( Even hit a high of 33 people) people today just because the few active GC's were giving some enjoyment to people.

There's only so much that the Game Coordinator team can do. When you're battling against bad development decisions, how do you expect to retain players through your events? As players as well as volunteering staff, how do you expect people to even log on?

Right now, the HD is killing that enjoyment, but serverside HD was more of an inconvenience for us American players. I actually would prefer this over the serverside HD so long as I don't get hit from 20 tiles away by european players. No HD will satisfy anybody tbh. As for people complaining about the HD, default would be even harder for you guys in events such as CTF since you all are accustomed to the s-bash tecnique, and then you would ***** again.

Oh right so when the server was based in the US it wasn't an inconvenience for European players? Well actually, it wasn't because we still sparred, PK'd and played events no problem. I was able to hold my own quite easily when the server was in the US, so why can't Americans now? If the server was in the US (which no one actually attempted to directly get back other than myself) then nobody would be complaining. Instead we were lumbered with a horrible hit detection, great attempt.

You have an RC on Classic. You are capable of handing suggestive ideas via RC to the active dev team as well as give critiques as well since you possess oh so much envy towards the players concerns. Hell you can even start doing your job on Classic.

That is not true at all. As players it is impossible to get ideas thrown in, people have tried. As staff it is the same way, and I know of a couple of developers who have had and some who still have this issue. It's not as simple as "you've got RC so go influence some things" because you don't need RC to voice your opinion, and you certainly shouldn't need to be staff. Aside from that though, what the hell is "envy towards the players concerns" about?

I also love it how particularly you guys have to single out Thor here. While i usually don't agree with him on some stuff, he is actually doing something for Classic whether it be good or bad, rather than complaining. Rufus, maybe you of all people should be a little more considerate for his work? You don't have to like it, but you should at least acknowledge it's different from the initiative any other Dev on Classic is trying to do. People were complaining about serverside HD. He took his time to make a new one, although perfect yet people still are complaining, even giving up his advantage over the more populated American players. I thought the map idea was actually a good one, though not a dramatic change.

Good content? Bad content? Who cares at least it's content right? What a stupid thing to say. Players on Classic have such low expectations of what the server could be and what potential it has. I honestly don't understand how people can say "he's trying his best" and similar comments and play for that reason. I don't play on games because the developer was trying his best when he made it, to then have a terrible game with terrible features that don't appeal to me at all. I play games because the developer tried his best and released a great end product that was fun and focused on what I wanted. That's generally the logic as to why anyone plays a game, so I don't see why the players of Classic have this watered down view of what the server can be like, but it is completely useless and gets the server nowhere.

EclipsedAngel
02-17-2009, 04:18 PM
Ok. I honestly think classic is at a pathetic low now.
It's become a cliche server that's about CTF cause that's the only thing that is good on that server, but now I'm even sick of CTF.
Is that really all classic is reduced to now? A CTF server? I rather play old classic on trial than play new classic on a gold/classic account.

About Master Storm and the dev team.. I really think he lost motivation on the server. He's a nice guy but he's not pushing the server anywhere.

Thor has potential but doesn't get the players. He doesn't listen to what the players want. He won't admit that his HD is
bad/needs to be recalled and worked on some more because HE made it.

If any HD, it should be one where you can actually hit people. I don't give a crap if I get hit far away, as long as I see I hit someone, I want it to hit someone.

I think the latest useful/cool think I've seen is Massokre's new item if anything. It's better than stupid maps and stuff.


Doubt you'd need to as myself and Shimmy would probably come back from playing UN.

Yeah, I've been checking on classic on and off to see if anyone is doing anything bad. If classic wasn't in such a terrible state then I'd be on it more, but there's barely any people on to make so much trouble.

xnervNATx
02-17-2009, 05:17 PM
Ok. I honestly think classic is at a pathetic low now.
It's become a cliche server that's about CTF cause that's the only thing that is good on that server, but now I'm even sick of CTF.
Is that really all classic is reduced to now? A CTF server? I rather play old classic on trial than play new classic on a gold/classic account.


agree , but ctf IS everything , even if its ****

MysticX2X
02-17-2009, 05:28 PM
holy nerd rufus.
I don't get what you mean here, care to elaborate?
Such as my supernicks changing idea. Supernick told me once that he created that place in 2000, and redid it in 2004 where tons of people complained about it. Supernicks being redone as a functioning spar place could be vital towards a close compact city, but would it fly with people? Particularly the oldbies who staff cater the most for. That's why they don't touch that useless place, which many things can be done for.

post about going UC

Classic does have a dev server, you know. It's where Master Storm usually creates his "systems" but if there was a need to do UC work, that's the place without any player distraction. And that server is Classic enabled. Player distraction isn't even the problem. The problem is if things can be done. Classic's current team is weak, and will power is being lost. There is no surefire Classic would even return if undergone UC. You might say that would be okay as long as Classic doesn't have to be in misery, but there are still some people who enjoy Classic and would miss it. It's also sad to see a server whom people worked so hard making content for just go like that. At the very least, if PWA cared, they would monitor what Storm is doing. Era had a very successful UC state and coming back to Classic Tab with a large amount of players. I do recall however, Graal2001 being off the list when i first came to Graal, seeing it come back and instantly dying again. As for losing will power, it's a general theory of mine. I just think most of the staff like to work on a somewhat frequented server and not UC servers, unless they're severely loyal staff. That's why you see Classic barely getting staff, and UN getting staff, and it would only hurt Classic more if they go UC.


post about content creation
Rofl, then tell me, who should be developing the content? Graal management? They haven't helped for as long as i can remember. You guys are singling out people who are just like you, but making a developmental effort. The real people you should be furious at in regards to this point is the Graal management. Not Classic Staff

That's what happens when you listen to the older players too much and develop your content based upon their opinions. While these players only turn up once every few months, the actual players of the server get ignored. There needs to be a happy medium, but in order to do that you need developers that understand what that happy medium is. Releasing a "Love" NPC for Valentines day, because it was old content, is not a happy medium. Releasing Bowling without any changes, because it was old content, is not a happy medium. The reactions show, the content is wasted.
Agreed pretty much. Love NPC would be okay if it would have any more affect than putting hearts around somebody. It isn't too much of a liability to the server anyways, but not a very useful addition.

post about GC
Right now, the only thing affecting events is the HD. Many players were dissatisfied with the previous serverside HD, and other players wouldn't dare to come on this server just because they did not like that HD at all. Even the current one was being constantly complained about. Events create player enjoyment, and events don't always have to rely on slashing your sword. But with our GC Admin being inactive, there's not much to do for the events future. I have spoken to Night and he has actually told me he is going to try and get more active so that's a positive hope towards the GC future.

post about serverside HD
Well that problem has been disestablished now, hasn't it? We have a clientside HD, which only receives damage based on if the player is hit on his/her own screen. People complained about both HD's and apparently adding the default HD in isn't as easy as it sounds.

Moving Classic to Europe was the worst move you could make in regards to player enjoyment since a bulk of the players come from the US.

I do recall their being a poll for clientside HD and everyone wanted it. It was even tested in several events and locations where people were still okay with it. Blame the players a little? It's what they wanted.

post about xaphans RC
So you are saying having RC doesn't have it's own benefits? RC is where most developers actually discuss plans/projects. Anyone with RC could throw in their fair share of criticism. And what i mean by "envy towards the players concerns" is exactly what that sentence means. Xaphan seems to agree with most of the players, and is a Staff member with RC. I know this thread was created on the reaction of players from the Monthly Spar.

Yeah players can voice their opinion. PM Master Storm, and tell him. You probably won't see action but that's the best way to voice your opinion for right now. I guess if you can emphasize your idea very brilliantly might he consider it.

Post about Thor
Well I don't recall him releasing terrible content. The HD issue is being looked at and being dealt with though. That is the only addition which might of created a negative effect on the server, but I've explained the HD issue in several other points so yeah. Bowling wasn't great, but it's always something to do on the side. The Map addition was good, and clearly has no downside rather than not being a priority right now. Right now, the Staff team is trying their best to suit the player needs. Most of the decisions made were off what the player thought on polls.

@Stryker: Maybe you should see who are some of your active GP's first. Eillen, Deo, and E26 haven't tagged up in a good month plus. GP's and FAQ's should be the two non development positions to have their staff actively tag up regardless of playercount. I was talking to Ranger about ensuring his team's activity and he told me he checks to see if his FAQ's do tag up on a consistent basis. The reason the GP and GC team falls is because of the lack of ensuring activity.

GP's dont have to do anything more than tag up, wait for player complaints, help clean up any harassment/inappropriateness on the overworld, and clean up masses. As ranger said, a low playercount doesn't justify low GP Count. GP's are always needed and I can't believe the amount of harassment/hacking that actually goes on at some points. Mind you I'm not telling you how to do your job, but showing you that GP's are not dependent off playercount.

@Xaphan: Some of the stuff if just said up above counts here too. As for your players have to develop to create content idea, that's always how Graal has been. Classic has a development team releasing things from time to time, whether it be slow or not. They are not a big team right now, but still work towards getting things done.

I think the suggestion to help Classic if you want to see more content out there was aimed at if you're impatient and want something now, or otherwise wait. Or if you want to take a shot at doing some of the things you would like to do.

xnervNATx
02-17-2009, 05:59 PM
@Mystic: Its not because you dont see staffs online that we are not active , get it right

Crimson2005
02-17-2009, 06:18 PM
So parts of Graal have been developed by players the last 10 years, so what? What are you getting at?

I am sick of feeling that I have to develop content to enjoy a game that I paid for. Tell me one other game like this, that's right, there isn't one. Graal is a game first, not a development platform. I don't have development skills and I shouldn't need them either to enjoy a game that I paid for. No one should.

MysticX2X
02-17-2009, 07:07 PM
Yes. Expect great benefits consistently from a game you paid for 4 years ago. Great thinking. :rolleyes:

TESTRETIS
02-17-2009, 07:08 PM
In the end, Graal is just one part of your current resumue that will end up not existing and become meaningless.

Crimson2005
02-17-2009, 07:09 PM
Yes. Expect great benefits consistently from a game you paid for 4 years ago. Great thinking. :rolleyes:

I expect to get what I paid for.

maximus_asinus
02-17-2009, 08:43 PM
I expect to get what I paid for.Graal's whole business model is based around players building their content. Where have you been?

And then I think to myself, you're using the whole "I am a customer, I purchased this game, I should be able to play without developing" but then you go and demand that other players (much like yourself) should be designing content for you to work on. Is that hypocrisy or irony? I forget.

DustyPorViva
02-17-2009, 08:52 PM
Graal's whole business model is based around players building their content. Where have you been?

And then I think to myself, you're using the whole "I am a customer, I purchased this game, I should be able to play without developing" but then you go and demand that other players such as yourself should be designing content for you to work on. Is that hypocrisy or irony? I forget.
It's neither. Different people have different interests in games. Some people will want to play Graal to actually enjoy the work of others, some will want to 'play' Graal to make content for others to enjoy.

Xaphan has every right to want to only enjoy Graal as a player, not as a developer. If other people want to volunteer and develop a server that represents Graal, there is some responsibility. No, they're not getting paid, but they did volunteer. Just like if you were to volunteer at a soup kitchen, people still wouldn't tolerate you spitting in their soup and pissing in their drinks. It's not the same responsibility as a job, but right now MS doesn't want to give up his spot so he's only stopping someone more capable from stepping up and improving things. Xaphan, as a player, has every right to complain when things aren't fun. If someone wants to claim to be a developer, they should be prepared to have others criticize them, whether it's volunteer or not. Especially if they're preventing others from doing better.

My point, in a nutshell: Xaphan wants to just play. MS/Thor wants to development. As a player, Xaphan has the right to criticize the staff's work, even if they're not getting paid. Why? Because it comes with the territory and any developer, paid or not, knows that. Especially when there is money involved.

Kill
02-18-2009, 01:46 AM
I'm just very tired of seeing player such as Kill and Laura complain about every thing
Since when have I "complained about everything" ?, the HD IS appauling, you even said so yourself a few weeks back, yet have suddenly changed views... I wonder why.
yet do nothing to help the effort
I have no interest in FAQ, can't do little to no work for Development, applied for GP when they were hiring.

The only way I can see myself contributing to Classic is through hosting and developing new events, or rather, a GC.

I PM'ed Night x7 at different times asking him to start hirings so I can send an app. Even before when he was active, yet got no replies. I am willing to help Classic, but my expertise is and only has been through being a GC.
I can see myself as a good GC Admin actually, much more active, constant hirings: spice everything up.

MysticX2X
02-18-2009, 02:11 AM
I'm not here to argue such points like but, but just for hells sake, how about every CTF game you play or every event someone hosts where you tell the GC in a mass that the event sucks, this HD sucks, everything sucks? I've admitted that I don't like the current Hd, and I've also said several times I'd rather this one more than the serverside though.

I also tried persuading Night to get rid of some of our more inactive GC's, but Night isn't even active himself to know who hosts or not.

@Xaphan: You payed about...what? 15-20 Euro in 2004-2005? Still expect benefits of that to this very day? You pay more for some silly adventure game for the PS2 or gamecube which doesn't even last you that long. Maybe if a new player who was constantly paying for their account complaining would sound a bit more justified.There are other servers rather than Classic, which could better suit your money if you're willing to go that far. I find it very immature to yell at current developers for doing volunteer work that they don't have to do. Someone pulled out that they are responsible now since they wanted to be development. That sounds selfish actually. Soup Kitchen Idea: Someone yells at you because the soup wasn't catered to their tastes. No one should put up with that. Blame Master Storm all you want. I agree with what Dusty said there because Master Storm has no intention of quitting and he is doing nothing along with that. This whole game is about community created stuff. No you don't have to develop to expect good things on a server, but if you want things done your way/quicker, might as well give a hand. Otherwise wait for Classic Dev to release something worth your time. I hate speaking in their defense so much but selfish comments irritate me.

Crimson2005
02-18-2009, 02:37 AM
I've paid those €20 Euros about 3 times, I didn't just pay once then stay with lifetime Classic, I was a Gold/VIP member for 3 of those 4 years. What the hell do you mean "still expecting benefits"? I'm not after benefits I'm after a game that I enjoyed for the most part of the first 3 years I started playing. I expect the game to get better, I don't expect benefits. That's what game developers do don't they? Develop games so it gets better and brings in new players. That benefits everyone, not just me, so how is that selfish?

I am complaining because they are killing what Myself and others loved. We all want to see it get better, we want to see it in capable hands. It is not in capable hands. You seem happy to settle for second best, some of us aren't. We want the Classic as we've known it, not this new one where we don't even know if it will be around for much longer.

I understand that it's voluntary but that is no excuse for low standards.

Kill
02-18-2009, 02:38 AM
how about every CTF game you play or every event someone hosts where you tell the GC in a mass that the event sucks, this HD sucks, everything sucks?
I have a right to express my opinions. Especially when they are the truth.

MysticX2X
02-18-2009, 03:06 AM
Those other 2 times were then for the VIP benefits of weekend Gold and UC playerworld access. You only payed once to experience p2p benefits on Classic.

I recall everybody complaining about everything. Serverside HD was complained about so many times, especially when the server moved to Europe. Clientside HD was replaced to placate the players on that concern.(It was actually decided by a bulk of the players to add that HD even when they were able to test it in different levels i think. Poll definately). Yeah it failed but blame the development team! Not the players who decided to have such a HD!

Yeah i agree Classic is in a worse state then what it was in the past year or so, but that really is in part with the failure of the staff team as a whole. Development isn't solely killing this server. And i do agree it needs to be in more capable hands. And the hands i think need to be replaced is Master Storm's.

@Kill: Yes, yes you do. But you're always discrediting a bunch of volunteer workers who are trying their best to give the players enjoyment. You contribute nothing to their effort by telling them they suck or their events are ****ty. Not to mention I haven't seen one thing that pleased you except CTF, which you still cry about as well if you aren't winning.

Kill
02-18-2009, 03:52 AM
@Kill: Yes, yes you do. But you're always discrediting a bunch of volunteer workers who are trying their best to give the players enjoyment. Not to mention I haven't seen one thing that pleased you except CTF, which you still cry about as well if you aren't winning.
You talk as if I'm a rebel who's sole purpose of joining events is to destroy them.
I don't join an event that I know I won't enjoy, especially with this new HD.
I am usually a sportsmanship type of person; I give credit where due, and take defeats like a man and learn from them.
You're acting as if I lose 1 game I throw a tantrum, lmao.

Anyway, this thread isn't about me it's about Classic. This new HD is disgraceful, yesterday whatever the heck that NPC Thor layed (I think it was HD V78888 or w/e) during CTF Future was SO horrific, I don't think anyone enjoyed it let alone even get right hits in. I ended up being the only one who didn't leave my team, twice.

I really don't know how Thor thinks this HD is acceptable, just because he's a sparrer and can somehow predict opposition's movements - doesn't mean we all can. It's disgraceful how I'm now supposed to hit into thin air because i'm fighting someone 0.3 seconds behind in time (on my screen).

xnervNATx
02-18-2009, 04:33 AM
You talk as if I'm a rebel who's sole purpose of joining events is to destroy them.
I don't join an event that I know I won't enjoy, especially with this new HD.
I am usually a sportsmanship type of person; I give credit where due, and take defeats like a man and learn from them.
You're acting as if I lose 1 game I throw a tantrum, lmao.

Anyway, this thread isn't about me it's about Classic. This new HD is disgraceful, yesterday whatever the heck that NPC Thor layed (I think it was HD V78888 or w/e) during CTF Future was SO horrific, I don't think anyone enjoyed it let alone even get right hits in. I ended up being the only one who didn't leave my team, twice.

I really don't know how Thor thinks this HD is acceptable, just because he's a sparrer and can somehow predict opposition's movements - doesn't mean we all can. It's disgraceful how I'm now supposed to hit into thin air because i'm fighting someone 0.3 seconds behind in time (on my screen).


the hd is v999999 and yet its was so horrible the npc didnt work on anyone . yet the bomb TOO . and at some moment thor npc got deleted and the hitdetection went WORST. i say move the server back to usa so everyone can be happy again.

what i mean by being worst is , i couldnt get hit by sword+npcs. so i left.

Remonq
02-18-2009, 03:14 PM
development just needs to find a system that works and stick with it. if there are some security loopholes or some people who are having issues with the detect or whatever, then so what? can't please everybody all at once. at this point it's all about finding something that is operable and decent. and for god's sake, if it aint broke don't fix it. seriously

Kill
02-18-2009, 03:38 PM
if it aint broke don't fix it.
It IS broke if it's not detecting ANY of our hits. How can you call a HD a Hit Detection if it doesn't detect a hit?
I don't want to play events as if i'm sparring, I don't want to PK as if i'm sparring, I don't want to be a defensive **** who's trying to do 4 things at the same time:

"Consider your upload speed"
"Consider your download speed"
"Consider that the opposite person is 0.3 seconds behind on your screen"
"Consider that the movement is too fast and/or the slash delay is too low."

How on earth is this fun?! for ****s sake, someone fix this HD, I want to play normally again where I don't have to think about everything, it's much more fun if you just PLAY instead of THINK before you do every single thing. This is supposed to be a GAME, it's anything but if you're having to constantly spar someone who isn't even there.

xnervNATx
02-18-2009, 04:08 PM
you want to spar normally? move server back in usa and use the hd they used in 03 . that it

Rufus
02-18-2009, 04:28 PM
Such as my supernicks changing idea. Supernick told me once that he created that place in 2000, and redid it in 2004 where tons of people complained about it. Supernicks being redone as a functioning spar place could be vital towards a close compact city, but would it fly with people? Particularly the oldbies who staff cater the most for. That's why they don't touch that useless place, which many things can be done for.

That's the staff attitude, not a "Classic" perspective.

Classic does have a dev server, you know. It's where Master Storm usually creates his "systems" but if there was a need to do UC work, that's the place without any player distraction. And that server is Classic enabled. Player distraction isn't even the problem. The problem is if things can be done. Classic's current team is weak, and will power is being lost. There is no surefire Classic would even return if undergone UC. You might say that would be okay as long as Classic doesn't have to be in misery, but there are still some people who enjoy Classic and would miss it. It's also sad to see a server whom people worked so hard making content for just go like that. At the very least, if PWA cared, they would monitor what Storm is doing. Era had a very successful UC state and coming back to Classic Tab with a large amount of players. I do recall however, Graal2001 being off the list when i first came to Graal, seeing it come back and instantly dying again. As for losing will power, it's a general theory of mine. I just think most of the staff like to work on a somewhat frequented server and not UC servers, unless they're severely loyal staff. That's why you see Classic barely getting staff, and UN getting staff, and it would only hurt Classic more if they go UC.

The systems Master Storm are developing are pretty much offering what is already on the server in terms of game mechanics. Master Storm's systems are arguably better in structure, but essentially it offers nothing new. I disagree with the notion that if the server is removed it couldn't promote interest, because when Konidias took over Graal2001 after it flopped again he hyped the server as much as he could, and he built up an interest for it through the content that he showed. The few developers we have left in the community like feeling as though they are working on a promising project and at current Classic isn't very promising. If the content is hyped and the hype matches the quality of the server overall, a revival is very possible and the server could be better than ever. If the server continues as it is, don't you think that it is less likely for a good revival in the future?

Well that problem has been disestablished now, hasn't it? We have a clientside HD, which only receives damage based on if the player is hit on his/her own screen. People complained about both HD's and apparently adding the default HD in isn't as easy as it sounds.

No, it has caused even more problems.

I do recall their being a poll for clientside HD and everyone wanted it. It was even tested in several events and locations where people were still okay with it. Blame the players a little? It's what they wanted.

Polling is rarely helpful in the development of a server which has little development to begin with. When I'm on my Wii and glance over at the "Everyone Votes Channel" I can go on it, vote for my opinion and predict what others are going to say. I don't feel as though I am obligated to vote for something in order to get new content, and that is how most people do feel on Classic. The polls that we get on Classic are extremely manipulative, because they play on what the players feel like they need, but don't actually produce what they do need. MoD fort for was ruined because of the opinion polls and no one has used it since. This new poll is asking players to choose which one they want -- why can't they subsequently release all of them over time? It's because if the content turns out awful, the player voted for it and the players are used as scapegoats when essentially all they ever want is something new.

RC is where most developers actually discuss plans/projects. Anyone with RC could throw in their fair share of criticism. And what i mean by "envy towards the players concerns" is exactly what that sentence means. Xaphan seems to agree with most of the players, and is a Staff member with RC. I know this thread was created on the reaction of players from the Monthly Spar. Yeah players can voice their opinion. PM Master Storm, and tell him. You probably won't see action but that's the best way to voice your opinion for right now. I guess if you can emphasize your idea very brilliantly might he consider it.

Haha how condescending, you're acting as though I'm unaware of what goes on and I'm unaware of how Master Storm acts. What you said is really not true. I guess for the developers you'll have to ask them personally as I'm not going to go naming names, but you're talking in an ideal sense instead of the actual reality. I don't see how posting on a forum is not better than speaking to Master Storm directly to receive nothing from speaking to him. In fact, posting on this forum has made him get off his ass quite a lot of times, where simple discussions with him have not, well, unless you're threatening him.

Well I don't recall him releasing terrible content. The HD issue is being looked at and being dealt with though. That is the only addition which might of created a negative effect on the server, but I've explained the HD issue in several other points so yeah. Bowling wasn't great, but it's always something to do on the side. The Map addition was good, and clearly has no downside rather than not being a priority right now. Right now, the Staff team is trying their best to suit the player needs. Most of the decisions made were off what the player thought on polls.

In a server revival quality is paramount, especially if the content is not particularly unique.
First impressions are everything, and as this current playerbase isn't all too familiar with the old content, most of the re-releases are new releases. Players are not going to feel the same sense of joy, hype, gratitude, fondness (and all those other positive feelings you get when you play on a decent game you've been waiting for) to a "better" re-release of a re-release further down the line, so these initial releases need to be of quality. More importantly we need longevity in content, so a delay in a release is totally worth it as long as the product has a more professional finish to it when it finally does release.

Crimson2005
02-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Those other 2 times were then for the VIP benefits of weekend Gold and UC playerworld access. You only payed once to experience p2p benefits on Classic.

Again, what benefits? How is requesting the server stops spiralling downwards expecting benefits?


development just needs to find a system that works and stick with it. if there are some security loopholes or some people who are having issues with the detect or whatever, then so what? can't please everybody all at once. at this point it's all about finding something that is operable and decent. and for god's sake, if it aint broke don't fix it. seriously

Was the previous one broken?

Crono
02-18-2009, 06:11 PM
I am sick of feeling that I have to develop content to enjoy a game that I paid for. Tell me one other game like this, that's right, there isn't one. Graal is a game first, not a development platform. I don't have development skills and I shouldn't need them either to enjoy a game that I paid for. No one should.

Well said.

Remonq
02-19-2009, 12:15 AM
Was the previous one broken?

there was one version that i really liked but i have no idea what happened to it or when it was changed

jorollychu
02-19-2009, 10:54 PM
weird how master storm hasnt posted but deleted a post.

hello

they should have just converted the old levels it would be done by now. good call on that one guys.

-Ramirez-
02-19-2009, 11:08 PM
they should have just converted the old levels it would be done by now. good call on that one guys.
Very. It was already decently progressing when I quit. Too bad a certain someone had to be ignorant and do it his way.

gravator
02-20-2009, 12:13 AM
Yea, whatever happened to all the old levels? Could it be possible for someone to bring back the old levels and make new scripting for them?


I'm certain many people have suggested this, but all the community of classic got in response was "it's not possible or easy to convert things" no one was asked to convert anything, just make all new scripting. and fix possible tile or level errors to the existing levels and maps, much less troublesome than having to do everything from nothing right?

-Ramirez-
02-20-2009, 12:20 AM
no one was asked to convert anything, just make all new scripting
There is no difference between "converting" and "making all new scripting" in a lot of the situations involved. Some things truthfully were impossible to update, at least in a way that had them function exactly like they did prior to the NPC Server. That's still no reason to just throw away all the work that had been done and redesign everything as it is now, however.

xnervNATx
02-20-2009, 04:55 AM
they should have just converted the old levels it would be done by now. good call on that one guys.


wow that just right .

Kill
02-20-2009, 01:50 PM
Can't really keep on looking back at wrong decisions made. It's about correcting those now, instead, focus on what there currently is. Like this god awful HD in place, it needs to be removed/changed - yet Thor still thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. :\

I showed numerous times to Thor how I had an advantage during CTF Indoor yesterday, yet he took it the wrong way and took it personally. I have nothing against him, it's just if content produced isn't good enough/not playable/fair, how or what or why on earth would I lie and say it's good or shut my mouth up like everyone else who's given up hope?

I could get passed everyone so easily because of my lag, I even had enough time to type away with paragraphs and only get hit once or twice (because I stood there), guess what? My team still won even though me and Oni spent most of the time pointing out the flaws of the HD... We clearly were hitting people and hits weren't going through... I don't know about Oni, but I was being hit yet got no HP taken off.

One of the opposition said "idk why you are complaining... i have hit you tons of times yet nothing happened" and then I replied "that's EXACTLY WHY i'm complaining, because it's no longer a game if i'm virtually cheating -- by taking advantage of this HD it has on laggers such as myself.

Edit:
Here is the February monthly. Thor versus a clear lagger taking advantage of the HD, and winning in the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRD0HTKCbo

Judge for yourself, but especially at 1:14 you see Thor hit the lagger yet nothing, but he hits Thor and it gets detected?
wtf?

MysticX2X
02-20-2009, 05:17 PM
That's the staff attitude, not a "Classic" perspective.
I'm not sure. I just think people think of Supernicks as a Classic place.

The systems Master Storm are developing are pretty much offering what is already on the server in terms of game mechanics. Master Storm's systems are arguably better in structure, but essentially it offers nothing new. I disagree with the notion that if the server is removed it couldn't promote interest, because when Konidias took over Graal2001 after it flopped again he hyped the server as much as he could, and he built up an interest for it through the content that he showed. The few developers we have left in the community like feeling as though they are working on a promising project and at current Classic isn't very promising. If the content is hyped and the hype matches the quality of the server overall, a revival is very possible and the server could be better than ever. If the server continues as it is, don't you think that it is less likely for a good revival in the future?
I'm not even sure if Master Storm's systems on there are meant for Classic. He was making a new HD in regards to Classic, but then Clientside was released so i don't know what he's doing with it now. Konidias hyped up Graal2001 in 2006, where there were more developers. Since more people wanted to see Graal2001 come back, they helped him. But now it's 2009 and you guys can get a very few limited developers, as well as any server. Even comes to the point where many are multistaffing because they have to. Classic is in the same boat, especially when they rarely hire people with no scripting or graphic ability. You're right if they could hype it up, it could come back as something good, but I don't think they'll be able to even do it.

No, it has caused even more problems.
It just came out, nobody will get instantly good at it. It's kind of a bad HD, I'll agree with that though. But not so much on having serverside back.

Polling is rarely helpful in the development of a server which has little development to begin with. When I'm on my Wii and glance over at the "Everyone Votes Channel" I can go on it, vote for my opinion and predict what others are going to say. I don't feel as though I am obligated to vote for something in order to get new content, and that is how most people do feel on Classic. The polls that we get on Classic are extremely manipulative, because they play on what the players feel like they need, but don't actually produce what they do need. MoD fort for was ruined because of the opinion polls and no one has used it since. This new poll is asking players to choose which one they want -- why can't they subsequently release all of them over time? It's because if the content turns out awful, the player voted for it and the players are used as scapegoats when essentially all they ever want is something new.
I know a lot of people were complaining for a new HD right around the time the server went to Europe. Even I was. It was a suggestion from many players to change the HD to clientside because of getting hit from such a far range. It was tested in several spots as far as I know. But i guess you're right on that somewhat that the players would just agree for anything. But from the several CTF's i hosted on Clientside HD (when it was a droppable, and the server was serverside hd), nobody complained o.O. MoD change was terrible, true, but only because of the short time limit. UN relies on polls and look how terrible that server came out to be. You can't sit peacefully in towncenter without getting blown up by 1000 NPCW's

Haha how condescending, you're acting as though I'm unaware of what goes on and I'm unaware of how Master Storm acts. What you said is really not true. I guess for the developers you'll have to ask them personally as I'm not going to go naming names, but you're talking in an ideal sense instead of the actual reality. I don't see how posting on a forum is not better than speaking to Master Storm directly to receive nothing from speaking to him. In fact, posting on this forum has made him get off his ass quite a lot of times, where simple discussions with him have not, well, unless you're threatening him.
Well he's been supposedly reading this thread and gathering down the ideas. Will he act? I don't know I gave him a few ideas which we discussed but in the end wasn't right.


@GTA Idea: If anyone wanted to covert thousands of levels in all this time lol. Seems like a pain.

@Kill: Blobz wins most of the spar tourneys/monthly spar tourneys on Unholy Nation. It's ridiculous and many people complain because he lags 10 times worse than any Classic person you've seen. It's just reality that the lagger will dominate Graal sparring.

xnervNATx
02-20-2009, 05:31 PM
@Kill: Blobz wins most of the spar tourneys/monthly spar tourneys on Unholy Nation. It's ridiculous and many people complain because he lags 10 times worse than any Classic person you've seen. It's just reality that the lagger will dominate Graal sparring.


i kinda agree on that , even tought i lagged once as bad as blobz i got kicked , but i was vs meryl(if you know her you know what i meant) but both didnt get kick.

Ares
02-20-2009, 11:04 PM
@Kill: Blobz wins most of the spar tourneys/monthly spar tourneys on Unholy Nation. It's ridiculous and many people complain because he lags 10 times worse than any Classic person you've seen. It's just reality that the lagger will dominate Graal sparring.

uhhhhh he's won what, 2 utc's in the past 2 years? his lag doesn't dominate graal sparring at all, just lil scrubs who have no idea what they're doing

xnervNATx
02-21-2009, 04:11 AM
uhhhhh he's won what, 2 utc's in the past 2 years? his lag doesn't dominate graal sparring at all, just lil scrubs who have no idea what they're doing

[email protected] lil scrubs.
anyway , ares your online like.....some hours a day or not even one hour , why would you talk statistics when you dont know ****. blobz has been tagteam champ for over some weeks now.

Ares
02-21-2009, 05:06 AM
[email protected] lil scrubs.
anyway , ares your online like.....some hours a day or not even one hour , why would you talk statistics when you dont know ****. blobz has been tagteam champ for over some weeks now.

first of all, i hope you realize that blobz and i won the utctt.. second, i was there, watching him win some and losing some.. lag doesn't dominate graal sparring

xnervNATx
02-21-2009, 05:30 AM
yes its does. and yes i realised that was your statue. and blobz lag is way too hard.

Darklux
02-21-2009, 02:32 PM
From what I heard, peopel have offered two times for help to convert the old levels to new gscript and twice, nothign real was done.
So stop to argue and help instead on wasting time with this thread.

xnervNATx
02-21-2009, 05:31 PM
From what I heard, peopel have offered two times for help to convert the old levels to new gscript and twice, nothign real was done.
So stop to argue and help instead on wasting time with this thread.

and you are?

Darklux
02-21-2009, 05:57 PM
and you are?

A friend of classic - while you only seem to be able to comment in a destructive way.

MysticX2X
02-21-2009, 06:17 PM
uhhhhh he's won what, 2 utc's in the past 2 years? his lag doesn't dominate graal sparring at all, just lil scrubs who have no idea what they're doing
I've seen him win the past 2 ttutcs. I've seen him win 3 utc's in the past few months. I've seen him win many freeze tag doubles. I've seen him win many MST's/TTMST's. Fact is, he wins a majority of his spars with no skill at all. Yeah, he's beatable. I beat him a couple times in the past before....

Anyway, we're straying from Classic.

Crimson2005
02-21-2009, 06:47 PM
From what I heard, peopel have offered two times for help to convert the old levels to new gscript and twice, nothign real was done.
So stop to argue and help instead on wasting time with this thread.

Classic now has about 12 developers. I'm willing to bet 80 percent of them have no clue. I don't think it's a case of getting even more developers, you'd think that that many developers would be more than enough to work on a project, right? Then again giving any random player who can "develop" a staff position and giving them an RC is their way of maintaining a playercount above 20 afterall :rolleyes:

Why can no one see that their current methods are no way going to help the server?

Kill
02-22-2009, 01:29 PM
It would be nice to see the Developmental side of Classic being posted somewhere: preferably on these official forums. It would help as it not only tells us the direction of where the Development team are going; but we can also give feedback and invaluable suggestions and recommendations as to how the current [or future] content could be improved upon or whether some things may not be as... shall we say, wise to make?

Rufus
02-22-2009, 05:26 PM
It would be nice to see the Developmental side of Classic being posted somewhere: preferably on these official forums. It would help as it not only tells us the direction of where the Development team are going; but we can also give feedback and invaluable suggestions and recommendations as to how the current [or future] content could be improved upon or whether some things may not be as... shall we say, wise to make?

Why do you think WhiteDragon is "Assistant Developer Administrator" now? So he can be used as a proxy to post for people like Thor most likely :rolleyes:

jacob_bald6225
02-22-2009, 09:21 PM
It would be nice to see the Developmental side of Classic being posted somewhere: preferably on these official forums. It would help as it not only tells us the direction of where the Development team are going; but we can also give feedback and invaluable suggestions and recommendations as to how the current [or future] content could be improved upon or whether some things may not be as... shall we say, wise to make?

Want me to log my progress on the ice quest whenever I get back into the groove of school and start working on it again?

maximus_asinus
02-23-2009, 02:30 AM
Next event I am going to post video on how terrible the hit detection is now. Just played a CTF where I could walk through arrows and slash people so clearly but they just walk through it.

Kill
02-23-2009, 03:15 AM
Why do you think WhiteDragon is "Assistant Developer Administrator" now? So he can be used as a proxy to post for people like Thor most likely :rolleyes:
Don't really see him post any updates or future ideas/plans about Development stuff...
Want me to log my progress on the ice quest whenever I get back into the groove of school and start working on it again?
Would be nice, yes.
Next event I am going to post video on how terrible the hit detection is now. Just played a CTF where I could walk through arrows and slash people so clearly but they just walk through it.
It seems like it's the only way of proving a point as the Admins don't believe in anything unless they see it for themselves; ofcourse, you can expect Thor to be ignorant and deluded by still thinking that there's nothing wrong with the HD (only because he made it). Today, once again, I see people hit me yet nothing. It's gone beyond a joke now, this HD is no longer a mockery; it is a complete and utter failure.

jorollychu
02-23-2009, 03:33 AM
whitedragon makes cool npcs that will never get released so he's really only a dev for fun and luda's probably the best dev but he gets no respect so he never knows what to do but at least he works unlike the other devs

Kill
02-23-2009, 03:54 AM
Do you know what? that's actually pretty accurate. WhiteDragon i've seen only make fancy laggy NPCs so that he can sparkle away running around the overworld with boots and lag up the server to make everyone annoyed. Perhaps he's just showing off. I don't really know what the point in making fancy laggy NPCs is... if it's to do with future quests, then honestly... How can you say they're trying to keep things 'Classic' when things like that produced is a total contradiction in itself.

jacob_bald6225
02-23-2009, 04:09 AM
whitedragon makes cool npcs that will never get released so he's really only a dev for fun and luda's probably the best dev but he gets no respect so he never knows what to do but at least he works unlike the other devs

Didn't luda quit?

MysticX2X
02-23-2009, 04:16 AM
Yes, Luda's the best Dev when he breaks every staff rule and summons the server. :rolleyes:

Crimson2005
02-23-2009, 06:02 PM
Just put the previous HD back until there is a better one developed than the one that Thor made atleast. So we can go back to enjoying CTF and PK/Spars in the mean time until something better comes along. Yes, I know it wouldn't solve all of Classic's problems but it would atleast be tolerable...

Kill
02-23-2009, 08:02 PM
Agreed.

soulwazza
02-24-2009, 05:33 AM
Classic needs a vision. A vision of what the server should be. Should it continue using the current levels, should it revert back to the levels used in 2000 etc. At present there is no consensus as to what classic should be. Here in lies the problem. There is at present a myriad of projects all heading in different directions. This effort is important and of fundamental importance but needs to be redirected into constructive projects that will aid into a classic vision.

Classic needs to redefine itself. It needs to focus on its core competencies, that is, things it is (was) good at. This would serve as a basis as to the re-establishment of the classic community. The introduction of bowling was a move in the right direction. Yes, it proved entertainment for a few days. However, slowly, as more beneficial projects are introduced the offering to new players is enhanced (this is needed for playercount growth).

The manager of the server should be driving the change needed.

And yes although the HD might need reworking dont just say 'OMG THIS HD SUCKS LULZ YOUR ****' perhaps no one is listening to your claims because all your offering is criticism not a resolution. Well, what is wrong with the HD, list the problems ie.
1)
2)
3)
and perhaps the issues will be resolved - although unlikely.

This is like the 83409384 thread complaining about the same problems and issues. This should register with the development staff and it hasn't <PROBLEM HERE. So im not really expecting anyone to read this and act upon my viewpoint :)! Peace :D <3

MysticX2X
02-24-2009, 05:44 AM
Just put the previous HD back until there is a better one developed than the one that Thor made atleast. So we can go back to enjoying CTF and PK/Spars in the mean time until something better comes along. Yes, I know it wouldn't solve all of Classic's problems but it would atleast be tolerable...
For the Europeans, yes.

Anyways, why don't they just script a HD geared towards the default HD with the movement as well? I'm not sure how much that process would be strayed from the amount of time it took to convert to Clientside HD.

maximus_asinus
02-24-2009, 06:06 AM
I've talked to Thor and WhiteDragon on HD, and I recieved very different answers on why they've decided to change the system from Serverside to Clientside. To me, serverside is the most secure because lag didn't play such a major role. The server decided what was considered a hit, not the client. For the most part if it looked like it should hit, it would count as a hit. Now if it looks like a hit, you're wrong because your faster connection hasn't been refreshed with the new client's information and coordinates; they have been two steps ahead the whole time.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 08:07 AM
The manager of the server should be driving the change needed.
Everyone please laugh at this. You know you want to. ...and it's completely justified.



Anyways, why don't they just script a HD geared towards the default HD
If the system NPCs weren't the biggest collection of random additions all calling each other back and forth a few hundred times for each minor thing you could possibly want to do, you'd have this wish already. I've duplicated the default, with all the positives and negatives that come with it. This is, as I understand it, what the majority want, and with good reason. The only reason it isn't implemented yet is because I have no desire to spend the time it takes to sift through the ridiculous mess of system NPCs that have no organization whatsoever. It's not surprising that things don't get done.




To me, serverside is the most secure
because lag didn't play such a major role
I wouldn't really consider lag "security", but I guess I can see how it might be viewed that way. If someone is intentionally making themselves lag to get an advantage, it can still be accomplished with serverside hit detection, although not in the same way.

Now if it looks like a hit, you're wrong because your faster connection hasn't been refreshed with the new client's information and coordinates; they have been two steps ahead the whole time.
This is essentially how it was before NPC servers existed. Did you feel the same about it then?

DustyPorViva
02-24-2009, 08:58 AM
People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).

Serverside HD is quite the opposite. Instead you must hit where the server knows the player is instead of where you see. That is counter-intuitive to what a game should be trying to accomplish. Responsiveness is very important to good controls and presentation.

maximus_asinus
02-24-2009, 09:33 AM
People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).We do not get this with the current clientside hit detection. Why is that?
I wouldn't really consider lag "security", but I guess I can see how it might be viewed that way. If someone is intentionally making themselves lag to get an advantage, it can still be accomplished with serverside hit detection, although not in the same way.Woops, I was rewording a paragraph, two sentences became one and I forgot to proof read. That wasn't supposed to be in my post at all.
This is essentially how it was before NPC servers existed. Did you feel the same about it then?The old system worked pretty much the opposite way, or atleast it did to me. They've created a system to cater to the laggiest player.

DustyPorViva
02-24-2009, 09:35 AM
We do not get this with the current clientside hit detection. Why is that?
Like I said, reflects the script itself. Good clientside HD accomplishes the feeling of responsiveness.

Thor apparently has the numbers needed to replicate the default HD, why he didn't use it is beyond me.

Rufus
02-24-2009, 10:45 AM
Anyways, why don't they just script a HD geared towards the default HD with the movement as well? I'm not sure how much that process would be strayed from the amount of time it took to convert to Clientside HD.

Do you not think that the current hit detection was intended to be like that?

People like to feel that the game they are playing is responsive. Clientside HD provides just that -- when you see a player and you hit them, they are hurt. It responds(though this reflects the script itself).

Serverside HD is quite the opposite. Instead you must hit where the server knows the player is instead of where you see. That is counter-intuitive to what a game should be trying to accomplish. Responsiveness is very important to good controls and presentation.

With our serverside hit detection you seen players when you hit them, and they seen you hit them in return. The player did not require to be walking towards you in order for them to get hit, which they do in default hit detection unless your pings, region and UDP are matched well. Lag did not provide an unfair advantage and it couldn't be as abused as it is with clientside hit detection. There was the odd duff hit, but it was never a case of hitting where the server seen the player in order to get a hit, which would be just as bad as hitting invisible laggers on any clientside hit detection anyway.

In this regard, I don't see how clientside hit detection provides good responsiveness or presentation when compared to serverside at all.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:22 AM
Lag did not provide an unfair advantage and it couldn't be as abused as it is with clientside hit detection.
All systems can be abused. It's still perfectly possible for someone to throttle their connection to where they're moving erratically, even if it's not substantial. This would affect serverside hit detection. It's still a potential advantage, and abuse.

Rufus
02-24-2009, 11:24 AM
All systems can be abused. It's still perfectly possible for someone to throttle their connection to where they're moving erratically, even if it's not substantial. It's still a potential advantage, and abuse.

In sparring and in PKing this did not provide an advantage. In events such as CTF this was dealt with by the Game Coordinators.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:27 AM
In sparring and in PKing this did not provide an advantage.
I would find someone moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location (granted, within limited range) difficult to deal with, and as a result, it would be a disadvantage to me. I don't see how this would be any different for anyone else. Ultimately, the point is that serverside isn't perfect either.

In events such as CTF this was dealt with by the Game Coordinators.
Just as any issues from using clientside hit detection will be dealt with by appropriate staff members. I'm not saying one is better than the other (hit detection methods), but clientside is what I know a lot of people want.

DustyPorViva
02-24-2009, 11:32 AM
In this regard, I don't see how clientside hit detection provides good responsiveness or presentation when compared to serverside at all.
Because clientside is well... clientside. It's all calculated on what is going on on your side, so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you. This does not happen with serverside if there is lag because there is a delay between what's going on on your side, and what's going on on the server, then there's the delay between me and the server as well. Many times in my experience with the serverside HD on Classic I had to predict my opponents moves and hit ahead rather than being able to hit them.

Rufus
02-24-2009, 11:44 AM
I would find someone moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location (granted, within limited range) difficult to deal with, and as a result, it would be a disadvantage to me. I don't see how this would be any different for anyone else.

With serverside hit detection have the ability to hit their player directly, which includes when the player freezes and jumps around. With clientside hit detection you are required to hit a lot of steps ahead in order for them to receive a hit and outside of sparring it is neither predictable nor appropriate.

Just as any issues from using clientside hit detection will be dealt with by appropriate staff members. I'm not saying one is better than the other (hit detection methods), but clientside is what I know a lot of people want.

That is hardly the same. It is way easier to abuse your connection with clientside hit detection. In events such as CTF you can't really just "deal" with people abusing lag with a clientside hit detection, because not every lagger has choppy movements yet is placed at an advantage. With serverside hit detection laggers are evident because your opposition does not need to be walking towards your sword in order to take a hit. I don't see how the staff members can deal with abuse that responds differently to different people, nor should they really be expected to judge it.

Because clientside is well... clientside. It's all calculated on what is going on on your side, so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you. This does not happen with serverside if there is lag because there is a delay between what's going on on your side, and what's going on on the server, then there's the delay between me and the server as well. Many times in my experience with the serverside HD on Classic I had to predict my opponents moves and hit ahead rather than being able to hit them.

When I hit a player on serverside there were very few instances where they did not see the hit on their side as well. On clientside hit detection there is the same issue, but aesthetically I'd probably say it was even worse because you're not hitting the player on either screens if they lag. Scripted hit detection is always going to have a greater delay than the hard coded default (which I assume is what most players are looking for when they campaign for clientside hit detection) and this includes clientside as well. Triggeractions seem to appear earlier in the data than player movement. On your screen you can turn and swing the sword, which on your screen is the turning first, and then the trigger to send the sword data to the server. The serverside hit detection on Classic was originally working out where the player was slashing at using player x/y/dir on serverside only. It was then changed so that the position/diretion was recorded on the client and then sent to the server, so that the server uses the data that was specified.

I think you need to go and spar with default hit detection, because you need to predict your opponents move every single time in nearly every single spar.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:46 AM
so if I hit where I SEE you, I actually hit you.
This is not true for the default hit detection, and therefore for mine as well. The default operates by the client checking everyone around them for hits. Not by "sending" a hit directly to someone from the attacker. This results in you swinging and potentially missing someone, despite visibly seeing the opposite.



With serverside hit detection have the ability to hit their player directly, which includes when the player freezes and jumps around.
Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.


That is hardly the same. It is way easier to abuse your connection with clientside hit detection. In events such as CTF you can't really just "deal" with people abusing lag with a clientside hit detection, because not every lagger has choppy movements yet is placed at an advantage. With serverside hit detection laggers are evident because your opposition does not need to be walking towards your sword in order to take a hit. I don't see how the staff members can deal with abuse that responds differently to different people, nor should they really be expected to judge it.
I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

Rufus
02-24-2009, 12:10 PM
Hitting what you see (although this isn't accurate, the amount of time it takes you to upload the data to the server is still relevant) isn't being disputed. The fact is that the jumpy movement is still possible and still provides an advantage because it's unpredictable by the opponent, and it can be generated at will.

If hitting the player is unrelated, I don't see how jumpy movement is related to anything we've been talking about at all.

I'm pretty sure you've been around for quite a while. If so, you know that these very things had to be dealt with in the past. Why is it suddenly so different now? Anyway, I'm not after opinions at this point anyway, so if you're trying to convince me that doing it clientside is a bad choice, you might as well save yourself the time.

Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current. An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have. In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection. That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 12:26 PM
If hitting the player is unrelated
Where did this come from?


Even if the server went to default hit detection, the serverside hit detection was provided as the basis for fairness in many of the game mechanics we have on the server at current.
Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have.
This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place, but:
If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we have.
This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

In addition to this the actual players of Classic over the last 3-4 years are used to the hit detection.
It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all. I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

That is why it is different now, because I'm not living in the past.
Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

I don't see where you thought I was offering you an opinion either, because you're the one that responded to a post I made.
It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not the one who even decides if server or clientside detection is used. I'm simply providing a perfect replacement for what currently exists, so that it functions as it was intended, rather than this horribly inaccurate mess that exists now.

Crono
02-24-2009, 04:05 PM
That's not Classic.


And a custom HD and movement system is?

Rufus
02-24-2009, 05:38 PM
Where did this come from?

Given that I quoted what you said when I replied, I'll assume where it "came from" was obvious and you're looking for clarity. There are very few instances where "moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location" can provide "difficulty" for other players. The relevant one here is hit detection, which is the current dispute.

Where is the basis for this supposed fact? It seems more like an assumption to me.

What's your point? Assumptions are beliefs and I neither stated it was a fact, nor tried to make it appear as one. My claim was based upon Stefan suggesting that I used a serverside hit detection on Graal2001 when discussing the default hit detection with him quite recently -- A suggestion from a somewhat credible source. It is my understanding that Stefan also made that same suggestion to Storm, but you should already be aware of this since you've parroted it quite a bit.

Objection! This implies that you think clientside hit detection is already in place. This contradicts that. Clarification? Considering you prefer it all to be serverside, this doesn't make sense, because it isn't serverside right now.

Might wanna slow down there ace attorney, jumping on a simple slip up in time lapse that is easily interpreted in the statement I made is far too weak. To correct and reiterate my point however:

An example of this would be a large portion of the events, which are going to feel a reduction in quality and overall fun like they already have. Classic boasts the quality of events, and there are going to be many instances where the server will be relying upon them to retain players. If you took Classic's events, changed them to work with the default hit detection and placed them onto a server that has the default hit detection, I can almost guarantee the responses would not be as positive as they are with what we had.

It's funny, considering there was supposedly a poll that showed the majority wanted it changed not too long ago. Obviously being accustomed to the serverside method wasn't very important, if at all.

The validity of the poll results and the nature in which people vote has already been addressed several times in this thread alone.

I'm betting a lot remember the default even MORE, and want it MORE. I know that's the case for myself and several others that I've directly spoken to.

How often do you play Classic? Additionally, nobody ever mentioned bringing back the default hit detection as a viable alternative.

Great, you go live in the "present" on another server. That's not Classic. This is also more like an insult than anything else, and it has the potential to take us off topic.

Something is telling me you didn't really think that one through, but again it has already been addressed.

It was assumed that the purpose of you even going into detail about why you think (yes, like it or not, a lot of these things are opinions, not facts) clientside detection is bad was to prevent me from trying to get it put in place. I don't see a point if that isn't the case.

To be fair I wasn't aware that you are important enough to provide a case for, nor did I think you actually did anything for the server. Then again I'm still not convinced, but I do know Master Storm reads this thread on a regular basis. Although he may provide nothing himself, he still ultimately decides what goes on the server.

xnervNATx
02-24-2009, 06:40 PM
And a custom HD and movement system is?

yes it is!!!!! :D

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 10:45 PM
And a custom HD and movement system is?
When it functions no differently than what you experienced before the NPC server? Yes. That's the point.



There are very few instances where "moving in larger increments and to a potentially random location" can provide "difficulty" for other players. The relevant one here is hit detection, which is the current dispute.
So you care nothing about the comparison between the flaws of the two systems? These flaws are completely unrelated to the topic of the validity of the two? I guess that would be irrelevant to someone who isn't interested in discussing them, and is so clearly biased toward a serverside-only system.


nor tried to make it appear as one
Your wording gave no indication of doubt, possibility of being wrong, or an indication that it was an opinion. The only conclusion I can come to is that you think it is a fact. I don't know how that isn't trying to make it appear as one.


My claim was based upon Stefan suggesting that I used a serverside hit detection on Graal2001 when discussing the default hit detection with him quite recently -- A suggestion from a somewhat credible source. It is my understanding that Stefan also made that same suggestion to Storm, but you should already be aware of this since you've parroted it quite a bit.
He did. That doesn't make the "claim" any more factual, however. I think you're assuming that everything is currently only designed to function properly with serverside hit detection, which isn't necessarily the case.


Might wanna slow down there ace attorney, jumping on a simple slip up in time lapse that is easily interpreted in the statement I made is far too weak.
Weak? As difficult as it may be for you to believe, there was no negative aspect to the question. It simply didn't make sense, and, obviously, I wanted you to explain.
Let me ask you something, are you completely aware that there are two hit detections to refer to right now? One of which is obviously already up, and the serverside hit detection from before. This is making your wording seem a bit odd.


The validity of the poll results and the nature in which people vote has already been addressed several times in this thread alone.
Considering I have no interest in going back to read it, why don't you give me your version of it? I'm sure it'll be colored by your views.


How often do you play Classic? Additionally, nobody ever mentioned bringing back the default hit detection as a viable alternative.
I played a lot in the past. There's been no reason to actually PLAY for quite a while though, so I couldn't give you an exact answer, but this should give you a pretty good idea.
There you go again saying things definitively (as in, fact) when you simply can't know. I've already said that I've talked to a few people directly and they DO agree that a replication of the default hit detection would be preferable. This was only a FEW people.


Something is telling me you didn't really think that one through, but again it has already been addressed.
Then don't bring it up, especially as an insult.


he still ultimately decides what goes on the server.
I don't think you're very aware of the staff situation at all.

Crimson2005
02-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Ok, the previous HD has now been added back to events. What does that tell you? The current HD caused major problems in events and it's now been removed from events. The current HD is not good enough, yet it still remains in general on the overworld? Why exactly? It's been deemed unfit and a pain in the arse for events but somehow remains on the overworld. I don't get it. It's not really good enough. Whatever though, carry on living in blissful ignorance, Thor and the rest. There is absolutely no convincing you what is good for the server as long as you can convince yourself, right?

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Ok, the previous HD has now been added back to events.
I can't say for sure if this is true or not, but I don't recall seeing anything in the various scripts to indicate it.

Crimson2005
02-24-2009, 11:16 PM
I can't say for sure if this is true or not, but I don't recall seeing anything in the various scripts to indicate it.

Apparently DC applied this change last night after he experienced the annoyances it causes as it was being tested.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:21 PM
Apparently DC applied this change last night after he experienced the annoyances it causes as it was being tested.
That's certainly possible.

Oh, and for the record, Thor hasn't opposed the idea of changing the hit detection at all. (At least not to me.) I think that's a pretty good indication that he knows it's bad.

Crimson2005
02-24-2009, 11:24 PM
That's certainly possible.

Oh, and for the record, Thor hasn't opposed the idea of changing the hit detection at all. (At least not to me.) I think that's a pretty good indication that he knows it's bad.

Changing, yes. Absolutely. Adjusting? It's not a case of adjusting really.

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:27 PM
Adjusting? It's not a case of adjusting really.
I'm not sure where this came from. Adjustment wasn't even mentioned. Am I missing something?

Crono
02-24-2009, 11:49 PM
When it functions no differently than what you experienced before the NPC server? Yes. That's the point.


LOL? Do you even play Classic let alone Graal? The current HD is nothing like the default one that, say, UN has. I play both so I'd actually know. :rolleyes:

-Ramirez-
02-24-2009, 11:58 PM
LOL? Do you even play Classic let alone Graal? The current HD is nothing like the default one that, say, UN has. I play both so I'd actually know. :rolleyes:
Did you read the thread? I'm not referring to what currently exists. I know the current one sucks, as well as all the others, in terms of similarity to pre-NPC server functionality.

DarkCloud_PK
02-25-2009, 12:08 AM
i havent even switched it yet wow

Crono
02-25-2009, 12:10 AM
Did you read the thread? I'm not referring to what currently exists. I know the current one sucks, as well as all the others, in terms of similarity to pre-NPC server functionality.

Yes I did. If the all of the past scripted hit detections have sucked and haven't been like the default hit detection, how is yours is going to be any different?

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 12:14 AM
If the all of the past scripted hit detections have sucked and haven't been like the default hit detection, how is yours is going to be any different?
As I said, it's identical to the default. None of the previous ones have done this.

Crono
02-25-2009, 12:15 AM
As I said, it's identical to the default. None of the previous ones have done this.

How is it identical?

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 12:20 AM
How is it identical?
I've also explained this. Please go back and read, as I don't want to type it again.

Crono
02-25-2009, 12:25 AM
I've also explained this. Please go back and read, as I don't want to type it again.

I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 12:31 AM
I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.
It makes no difference to me whether or not you believe me. If you're truly interested in the information, you'll go back and look for it on your own.

Crono
02-25-2009, 12:36 AM
It makes no difference to me whether or not you believe me. If you're truly interested in the information, you'll go back and look for it on your own.

Haha, that's what I thought.

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 12:38 AM
Haha, that's what I thought.
That's very typical of someone who's throwing emotion and ego into their posts. You're clearly not interested in the information that you claim to want.

Crono
02-25-2009, 12:41 AM
That's very typical of someone who's throwing emotion and ego into their posts. You're clearly not interested in the information that you claim to want.

How is it identical?

I've read the thread, but I haven't seen any mention of how your hit detection is "identical" to the default hit detection. If you can script a hit detection I'm sure you have the ability to copy and paste or even quote what you've apparently explained.

:asleep:

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 12:49 AM
:asleep:
You're assuming that you've read it properly and the information doesn't exist. Clearly you haven't, because you're wrong. I'm not doing the work for you.

MysticX2X
02-25-2009, 01:28 AM
Do you not think that the current hit detection was intended to be like that?
No, not really otherwise they would of scripted a HD geared towards default and this HD is far from it other than the fact of more fairer hits.

@Kat: Good to hear that somewhat of an attempt is currently being made.

Crono
02-25-2009, 01:51 AM
You're assuming that you've read it properly and the information doesn't exist. Clearly you haven't, because you're wrong. I'm not doing the work for you.

If I'm apparently wrong then why can't you support your claim? I have read through your posts and you have not explained it at all. Stop being a child and either quote what you've apparently explained or stop 'bsing' all together.

MysticX2X
02-25-2009, 02:20 AM
Apparently all event levels are set back to serverside hd. :(

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 02:27 AM
why can't you support your claim?
I can, but I told you why I'm not.

I have read through your posts and you have not explained it at all.
Then perhaps your original question didn't even ask what you're wanting answered. I'm not going to assume what you want answered, so be specific.

Stop being a child and either quote what you've apparently explained or stop 'bsing' all together.
If you want to think of this as childish, that's your choice. I'm not an advocate of doing things for people that they can do themselves, especially with such ease. Read above for a possible solution that doesn't involve repetitive information.

DustyPorViva
02-25-2009, 02:31 AM
If you want to think of this as childish, that's your choice. I'm not an advocate of doing things for people that they can do themselves, especially with such ease. Read above for a possible solution that doesn't involve repetitive information.
What do you expect him to do? Magically read through the thread again and know what you're talking about? If you're trying to make a point, it wouldn't hurt to quote yourself to provide the specifics of the point through all the many posts you have in this thread.

-Ramirez-
02-25-2009, 03:24 AM
What do you expect him to do? Magically read through the thread again and know what you're talking about?
I expect him to truly have read it and understood what was read. I can only make an assumption that that was done.

If you're trying to make a point, it wouldn't hurt to quote yourself to provide the specifics of the point through all the many posts you have in this thread.
I'm not disagreeing that it would make it easier, but based on what was asked and what's available, he can answer his own question. If it isn't able to answer his question, then there's obviously miscommunication of what he wants to know, specifically.

BlackSolider
02-25-2009, 08:48 PM
I'm going to attempt to throw my thoughts in here about Classic:

Back in 2006 or so, Classic was a thriving server. We'd have 30-40 people online during weekends and occasionally some afternoons. GCs would host a good mix of events at a constant rate. Sparring was fun and for the most part, fair. The server was still in the US at this time and the HD was acceptable to most. Guild wars would occur occasionally. Things were pretty good, despite there being little to no content. Luckily, the time gap in between events was so small that it wasn't a major problem.

Starting around 2008 things began to change on Classic. Slowly, the "oldbie" players either stopped playing as much or moved on altogether. This was pretty normal and had been happening for years. However, the influx of new players was shriveling up dramatically. Any actual new players to graal would look at era and see guns. Then they would look at classic, only to find that all we did was host events (where they had no chance of winning and would always be targeted.) Now, which server would they chose to play? Classic just wasn't drawing in fresh blood, and it was also losing old blood at the same time. Not a good combination.

In an effort to save the server, GCs started to resort to desperate measures. Rather than hosting a good mix of events, they would host only eight or so events that the majority of the current population really liked. Even then, only three or so of the events would get hosted half the time. CTF and sumo were the biggies. As the year progressed, the playercount seemed to slowly dwindle. The GCs pressed harder to "chain host" events like they used to, and thus they started things like "CTF Madness". Temporary fun to mask the true flaws of classic. Sounds like a drug.

Now it's 2009. The playercount is doing much better now than at the start of the year + december + late november. But things are not well. GCs still find it hard to "chain host" events. Thus the gap between events is large, and there is no content to fill the void. The dev team is (hopefully) hard at work to solve this problem. It doesn't help when everything they do is criticized to no end. Perhaps the community expects too much at once. Perhaps they have a right to demand progress. These last four years, the GC team has put the server on its shoulders. Its about time the dev team helped out too. Now I'm not going to sit here and bash the devers because I realize its tough to satisfy a constantly-*****ing community. Everything the dev team released has come under fire. Theres not much motivation when everything you do just isn't good enough.

But lets be honest here. Classic needs content for in between events. Classic needs a use for gelats and tickets. Classic needs to dump the useless GC prizes and get some useful items. Classic needs a way for guilds to actually "win" a war, and get a reward out of it. Classic needs a lot of things. Perhaps most importantly, Classic needs the community to shut up and start working together. Stop bashing the dev team's works unless you can do better. Stop leaving CTF games when you requested it. Stop lagging on purpose just to win events. Stop the hatred towards certain players. But most importantly, stop reading this post. Rofl. I haven't looked how long it is yet, but its probably excessively long. Seriously though: "Classic" doesn't mean everything has to stay the same or revert to its past. Classic means we have an older look to our tileset, but the server can evolve to fit the community within that context. I've spent far too much time on classic to see it go to hell. All I know is that Classic needs to get better, and each and every classician can help in their own way. As I've believed for a while now: find your role, then know your roll, then do your roll.


In summary:
Back in 06-07 the playercount was high enough that GCs could constantly host events; thus the lack of content wasn't a problem.
In 08-09 the playercount has decreased, and thus GCs can't constantly host events anymore. Thus the lack of content is apparent, and it is hampering the server.
Classic needs to come together to fix the server. Stop *****ing at devs. Stop *****ing at GCs and leaving events. Classic needs to get better, and everyone has a roll in that process.

DustyPorViva
02-25-2009, 09:16 PM
Stop bashing the dev team's works unless you can do better.
We don't need to do it better in order to want better. Yes, this is all about volunteer, but as long as they have a staff position they assume responsibility. We shouldn't have to do better, not as long as they want to claim their position of staff.

jorollychu
02-25-2009, 10:55 PM
Hard to learn to do better when they dont give you a chance to if you dont know how to dev.

BlackSolider
02-25-2009, 11:11 PM
@ Dusty.

But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".

MysticX2X
02-25-2009, 11:16 PM
@Gladius: You're just echoing what everybody just said. Of course tickets/gralats need a purpose. Gralats have none so far due to the mass amounts people have (Hurray for Black gelat quest). Tickets are somewhat not in mass amounts so yes they need a purpose. I suggested to Night monthly auctions for like statues and stuff. I forgot what he said and i think an item auction is currently trying to be made.

Guilds are forever dead on Classic. Nobody from other servers wants to play on Serverside HD and all the Classicians either found something better to do, or just got too old for the game. Not to mention they forever screwed over MoD Fort.

Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.

Rufus
02-25-2009, 11:24 PM
But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".

The most amusing thing about this is, Dusty can do better.

Guilds are forever dead on Classic. Nobody from other servers wants to play on Serverside HD and all the Classicians either found something better to do, or just got too old for the game. Not to mention they forever screwed over MoD Fort.

So that makes guilds "forever dead" on Classic?

Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.

Ironic really.

BlackSolider
02-25-2009, 11:30 PM
If dusty can do better, why isn't he doing better work then?

Rufus
02-25-2009, 11:32 PM
If dusty can do better, why isn't he doing better work then?

That might be because of the terrible staff team :noob:

DustyPorViva
02-25-2009, 11:34 PM
@ Dusty.

But if you can't do better, then how can you tell someone how to do their job? Yes, the dev team hasn't lived up to expectations. But instead of downgrading the work they actually do put out, why not thank them for it? The quantity of their work needs improvement. I can't judge the quality because I don't pretend to know how make complex scripts. (I could script a guild door or a chair back on GS1 years ago. Anything else is beyond me.) But if you can't script a better quest than Sardons/Gnome/Graal Castle, you are in no position to tell them to "make a better quest".
You assume no one thanks anyone around here for good work. If I see something I like and is done well, I say so. Also, it doesn't take someone knowledge of scripting or such to know when something is scripted poorly. You don't need to know how to paint a pretty picture to know when something looks pretty, or when it looks ugly. These are all very basic concepts we apply daily. Can you tell a bad game from a good game? If you shell out $60 for a game and you know it sucks(you don't have know how to make a game to know it sucks!), you can expect better.


Agreed with the stop *****ing at devs statement. It sounds completely selfish to yell at them because they're not catering to your tastes. I have seen several people appreciate what the devs have done on various things. Just because they aren't catering to you, Dusty, doesn't give you the right to call them out and keep *****ing about how they're making a server die more regardless of the fact that the server would be dying far worse without any updates/changes.
It's not *****ing, it's wanting better. Many have already acknowledged that Thor is very hard working, and probably the hardest working on one Classic, but that doesn't mean we're just going to settle for less. If the server is dying, it's dying. Most management and staff can come to that realization pretty easily, and yes it sucks, but they can't avoid the truth just because they're trying. And I'm not saying this to say that Thor is the singularity of Classic's problems, as there are many things that add up into one big mess.

Felix_Xenophobe
02-26-2009, 12:01 AM
classic had its peak when it had the dictionary npc inside the bank. when it was removed classic lost it all.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 12:14 AM
You make a good point there dusty, but do remember people are paid to paint pictures (sometimes) or make video games. Devs don't get paid; they spend their free time trying to please the mostly un-please-able community. And no, I don't assume that no one gives the devs thanks or anything. But I do know that I see a lot of people just constantly ***** about what they do.

Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso. The devs dev to their ability. If you don't feel like its good enough, then make something better. Otherwise, thank them and enjoy it as best you can.

Crimson2005
02-26-2009, 12:17 AM
Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso
or M.C. Escher...the guy that actually painted it

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 12:24 AM
Oh look, an art expert.

Seriously though, thanks. Idk who did it so I just used a name I knew.

Crimson2005
02-26-2009, 12:28 AM
Oh look, an art expert.

Seriously though, thanks. Idk who did it so I just used a name I knew.

Yes, but I disagree with the whole "if you can't do better then shut up". You may be happy to settle for second best but some of us aren't. Some of us know that settling for second best isn't going to get us anywhere in the long run.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 12:31 AM
I wouldn't know what "better" would be, nor do I have the ability to make something "better" than what they have. All I know is that no matter what the GCs or Devs do, they get more **** than appreciation, whether deserved or not. If you expect a "perfect" event or a "perfect" quest or w/e, you're probably asking the wrong people.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 12:31 AM
You make a good point there dusty, but do remember people are paid to paint pictures (sometimes) or make video games. Devs don't get paid; they spend their free time trying to please the mostly un-please-able community. And no, I don't assume that no one gives the devs thanks or anything. But I do know that I see a lot of people just constantly ***** about what they do.

Yes, you expect a certain standard of work. But we shouldn't expect a 'Crazy Stairs' painting from anyone but Picasso. The devs dev to their ability. If you don't feel like its good enough, then make something better. Otherwise, thank them and enjoy it as best you can.
This I am aware of. But you have to remember that Graal, regardless of being basically built by volunteers, is still a game you have to pay for. Therefor, if I am a new person to Graal and I pay for a subscription to Graal, I should still expect some level of quality. People who take on position of staff on these servers take on that responsibility; they are, or should be, aware of that. Criticism comes with the territory.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 01:22 AM
Excessive criticism shouldn't. Look at the HD. People complained about the serverside HD when the server got moved to Euro. People voted for clientside. So thor made one. Now they continue to *****, even though they wanted it.

What motivation does a dev have, when nothing they do is ever good enough? People wanted some quests for classic. So sardons+gnomes got released. Some people complained about those. People wanted content for classic. So bowling+minigamesystem+fishing got released. Some people complained about those.

Looks like a no-win situation to me. Its impossible to please everybody. Now I don't know what each person expects quality wise from the dev team. Personally I expected more stuff to be released than what was. I don't go yelling and cursing the dev team about it. I talk to some of them about it. I post things on forums about it. But I don't go bashing the dev team all day. That just doesn't help the situation.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 01:37 AM
Excessive criticism shouldn't. Look at the HD. People complained about the serverside HD when the server got moved to Euro. People voted for clientside. So thor made one. Now they continue to *****, even though they wanted it.

Because it's not good detection. What's hard to understand about that? Just because it's clientside doesn't mean it's going to be good. It has been said a lot that Thor probably worked hard on it, hard work != good in all cases.

What motivation does a dev have, when nothing they do is ever good enough? People wanted some quests for classic. So sardons+gnomes got released. Some people complained about those. People wanted content for classic. So bowling+minigamesystem+fishing got released. Some people complained about those.
There are always going to be people who complain. If you're a dev and you don't want to hear it you're in the wrong place. Like I said it comes with the territory. Is that a good thing? Of course not, but it will never go away. This applies to all games. There will always be the people who hate and criticize.

Looks like a no-win situation to me. Its impossible to please everybody. Now I don't know what each person expects quality wise from the dev team. Personally I expected more stuff to be released than what was. I don't go yelling and cursing the dev team about it. I talk to some of them about it. I post things on forums about it. But I don't go bashing the dev team all day. That just doesn't help the situation.
There are those who bash and those who bring up rational points. You seem to not be able to tell the two apart. The former are those who bash with no just cause and don't even attempt to be constructive in it. There have been many constructive points brought up about the HD and other aspects of Classic. It's not all bashing just because people aren't settling for less.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 01:45 AM
The people asked for it. They got what they want. How can you complain about it then?

Indeed there will be.

I can tell the two apart. I simply see a lot more bashing than rational. "Oh this HD isn't what I thought it was gonna be. YOU SUCK THOR" etc etc.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 01:50 AM
The people asked for it. They got what they want. How can you complain about it then?

Indeed there will be.

I can tell the two apart. I simply see a lot more bashing than rational. "Oh this HD isn't what I thought it was gonna be. YOU SUCK THOR" etc etc.
You're not grasping it. It's akin to eating dirt, and asking for something better and getting sand. People assumed when they asked for clientside HD, it would be better HD. Now they didn't assume wrongly, because clientside HD can be a lot better than what is currently up(it can be made to replicate the default HD).

The problem is, it's not what people hoped it was gonna be. Just because Thor worked hard on it is no reason to settle for shoddy HD. Sorry, but that's not how development works.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 02:38 AM
HDs and their capabilities are beyond me. The people asked for clientside, they got clientside. If they don't like it, well then thats their problem.

One year as a kid I asked for a red power ranger toy for xmas. I got a blue one. Did I *****? Of course. I was young. Now adays, I try to be appreciative of what I get. My parents tried to get a red one but couldn't. I still got a damn power ranger toy. I should have been happy, even though the blue one wasn't as cool.

For comparison, the classicians asked for clientside HD. Thor got em one. Maybe it wasn't exactly what they were hoping for. But they still asked for it. Maybe they should be appreciative the Dev team actually listened to the people and attempted to please them. Obviously it didn't work out like everyone had hoped, but hey, he tried.

As long as thor did his best, I won't ***** about it. I dislike the HD and have stated so several times, but I'm not gonna spam hatred for something he put effort in to.

Rufus
02-26-2009, 02:42 AM
HDs and their capabilities are beyond me. The people asked for clientside, they got clientside. If they don't like it, well then thats their problem.

One year as a kid I asked for a red power ranger toy for xmas. I got a blue one. Did I *****? Of course. I was young. Now adays, I try to be appreciative of what I get. My parents tried to get a red one but couldn't. I still got a damn power ranger toy. I should have been happy, even though the blue one wasn't as cool.

For comparison, the classicians asked for clientside HD. Thor got em one. Maybe it wasn't exactly what they were hoping for. But they still asked for it. Maybe they should be appreciative the Dev team actually listened to the people and attempted to please them. Obviously it didn't work out like everyone had hoped, but hey, he tried.

As long as thor did his best, I won't ***** about it. I dislike the HD and have stated so several times, but I'm not gonna spam hatred for something he put effort in to.

When you settle for less, or in this case something completely different from what you asked for, then you are leading the server into a false sense of accomplishment and security. Nothing will improve unless you voice your true opinions on something, regardless of how much effort someone placed into it. I don't think that I have seen anyone really boast hatred, though some opinions were expressed more harshly than others. Sometimes being harsh is needed though, especially if the person believes that there isn't actually an issue when there clearly is and everyone is saying it.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 02:49 AM
So we're going to overlook the fact that Thor complied with the people's wishes just b/c it wasn't exactly what they hoped for?

Were people expecting a flawless hd?

Really, what was everyone expecting?

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 02:53 AM
So we're going to overlook the fact that Thor complied with the people's wishes just b/c it wasn't exactly what they hoped for?

Were people expecting a flawless hd?

Really, what was everyone expecting?
I give up.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 03:46 AM
Good because this was going in circles.

I see your point dawg. I was nothing but the best for classic. But you can't expect a perfect HD since there is no such thing.

xnervNATx
02-26-2009, 03:49 AM
mix them together

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 03:51 AM
Good because this was going in circles.

I see your point dawg. I was nothing but the best for classic. But you can't expect a perfect HD since there is no such thing.
We can't(or shouldn't) expect perfection, but we can expect something better. Apparently this is even worse off than the serverside, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting something better. We shouldn't have to apply 'well he worked hard so I guess I can deal with it' logic. That is not how development works. I, as a developer, wouldn't want people to patronize me.

Crono
02-26-2009, 04:43 AM
mix them together

...what?

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 04:50 AM
As a dev (or a GC) I would simply want people to actually appreciate the effort I put in, rather than never be satisfied.

Honestly choosing between serverside and clientside is like picking your poison:
with serverside, you get reached hit occasionally.
with clientside, your hits don't always count.

The change to clientside pretty much solved the reach problem (I believe this was the main reason people wanted it changed), but introduced a new problem that people hadn't considered/known about.

So thor solved one problem, only to introduce another. People complain about the new problem but forget about the old being gone. I do believe that was the reason it was changed in the first place.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 04:58 AM
As a dev (or a GC) I would simply want people to actually appreciate the effort I put in, rather than never be satisfied.
Motivation is indeed a good thing when you're a dev, but praise and no criticism is only going to stifle any developer. You need to know your flaws and you need to know when you make flaws, or else you will never learn. I, personally, prefer learning and advancing myself rather than to be showered is praise just to be praised.
with serverside, you get reached hit occasionally.
with clientside, your hits don't always count.

That's not how it works, and hence the problem. It can be better.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 05:48 AM
But what HD is better?

Rufus
02-26-2009, 05:55 AM
But what HD is better?

Whichever satisfies the majority of the current playerbase, while having openings for potential new players.

WhiteDragon
02-26-2009, 05:56 AM
Since it looks as some people are unclear as to what the technical limitations of the HD are I'll explain briefly.

There are essentially three paradigms one can take when designing an HD:
Say we have player1, player2, and the server.
1. When player1 slashes, player1 looks at his screen and sees it hits player2, so player2 is hit. (always fair to the hitter)
2. When player1 slashes, player2 looks at his screen and sees he was hit by player1, so player2 is hit. (always fair to the person getting hit)
3. The server calculates if player1 hit player2 based on their serverside positions. (can look wrong to both players sometimes)

Previously, with the serverside HD we had number 3, and now with the clientside HD we have a mix of 1 and 2.
The fact that we're mixing them is the reason why some hits aren't counted. They aren't counted if the difference between the screen of the person hitting and the person getting hit is too large (to prevent reach hits and exploitation by laggers).



The difference between our clientside HD and the default HD is just the way information is transfered between the two clients and how the players are detected. What Kat is doing now is making a new clientside HD which acts more like the default.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 06:14 AM
Good stuff to know WD, thanks.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 06:29 AM
But what HD is better?
Sometimes it's not a matter of 'what HD is better' because it isn't as simple as serverside vs clientside. It can be as different as the scripter wants. Sometimes the HD can be good, but the values(detection, range of sword for instance) are poor. Sometimes the values are right, but the HD is poorly scripted. Sometimes it's both... it can be so many matter of things that you just can't really label a HD into black and white. You just have to play and feel which one is better. Ideally, it seems people want a HD that closely mimics the default(UN uses, for instance).

-Ramirez-
02-26-2009, 06:44 AM
What Kat is doing now is making a new clientside HD which acts more like the default.
exactly like the default*

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 06:48 AM
Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.

Could be wrong but I'll check on this tomorrow.

maximus_asinus
02-26-2009, 06:52 AM
exactly like the default*Thor told me it was impossible to redo the default movement unless Classic had access to timevar3 which could be used to do checks servers AND clientside (or something along these lines).

-Ramirez-
02-26-2009, 06:57 AM
Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.
This is correct to a degree, but I imagine it would actually be possible to come pretty close to getting it to work. It'd take some pretty awkward scripting. In fact, without actually trying it, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of it working completely with the appropriate code.


Thor told me it was impossible to redo the default movement unless Classic had access to timevar3 which could be used to do checks servers AND clientside (or something along these lines).
This isn't true at all. I have no idea what he could've been thinking when you were told this. Time synchronization of any kind isn't even used in any way.


Keep in mind that default and a scripted replica of the default are two different things. That doesn't mean they have to be any different, in terms of use, to the players.

DustyPorViva
02-26-2009, 06:57 AM
Unfortunately I read that the exact default HD won't work on classic b/c it wouldn't mesh with all the scripts made in the last 4 years or so.

Could be wrong but I'll check on this tomorrow.
They could just be fixed.

BlackSolider
02-26-2009, 03:18 PM
So we're going to take two steps backwards again?

Yes, remaking all those scripts might solve the problem if the HD worked out, but it'd set the dev team back even further.

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 03:43 PM
They could just be fixed.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Yes, they could be fixed after a large amount of time.
Then we've spent another year getting back to where we were, only with a new HD and nothing new.

Great idea for a server that is in dire need for NEW content.

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 06:32 PM
Some food for thought, brought to you by classic toall system.

maximus_asinus [A]: NPC interaction should also be recorded in this thing
maximus_asinus [A]: like when I buy a ticket instead of "you bought a ticket" it should appear in this interaction thing.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: possibly but thats a lot of recoding
maximus_asinus [L]: /transfer 1 hugs darkcloud_pk
maximus_asinus [A]: okay, then the transfer system atleast
maximus_asinus [A]: "you've recieved 1 hugs from maximus_asinus" in gold text would look nice
DarkCloud_PK [A]: you'd have to make a check to see if people have the chat window enabled or disabled
DarkCloud_PK [A]: other than that, its a good idea
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah, but if you're going to make a window like this you should make it fully intergrated in all the systems, otherwise it is pointless.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: should be i agree, just a lot of development power to do it
DarkCloud_PK [A]: right now i want to see all dev power going to new content
maximus_asinus [A]: I agree completely, but he has already begun this project, I'd be very angry if he left it half finished to go to another project
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i'll suggest it and see where it goes
maximus_asinus [A]: it couldn't be too hard, he'd have to what? tokenize the this.chat variable and make a function within the player's NPC which detects this token and displays it in the bar? I am not the best scripter, but it doesn't seem too complicated.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: its mostly a matter of clientside vs serverside mishmash
DarkCloud_PK [A]: when you get your chat set by an npc, it doesnt detect it on this chat system
DarkCloud_PK [A]: so you'd have to trigger this npc clientside AND check if its even on
DarkCloud_PK [L]: for every npc that makes you chat for messages
DarkCloud_PK [L]: o
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if you get your chat editted by script, it doesnt call the function onPlayerChats(), because technically, you didnt chat
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah I get what you mean
DarkCloud_PK [A]: so if I warpto via chatting it, it will show up on this log
maximus_asinus [A]: is there no work around to maybe just check to see if your chat isn't blank and work from there?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: but if I use playerlist, it wont
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i think he'd have to retool his whole chat system for that
maximus_asinus [A]: he has to make it so toalls don't show up in this bar and on the minimap, makes it confusing.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i dont think you can disable toalls from going to minimap
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i like toalls being on a chat window
maximus_asinus [A]: I thought there was a way, like with showstats or something
DarkCloud_PK [A]: that way you can always see it, instead of it being gone forever once you click it away
DarkCloud_PK [A]: hm
DarkCloud_PK [A]: possibly
maximus_asinus [A]: again, I'm not the best scripter, so I might be mistaken
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if there is, that would be easy to implement
maximus_asinus [A]: also should be able to move this chat window around. Its a gui script right?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: time to look it up
DarkCloud_PK [A]: use
DarkCloud_PK [A]: yes
DarkCloud_PK [A]: feel free to suggest it to WD, im sure he will take it into account, as long as people stay positive on its addition
DarkCloud_PK [A]: if people start telling him it sucks and needs this, no dev is going to listen
maximus_asinus [A]: already made an attempt to talk to him, he has ignored me outright, or is taking my suggestions silently.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: about what
maximus_asinus [A]: what I'm talking to you about right now.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: the chat system?
maximus_asinus [A]: yeah
DarkCloud_PK [A]: throw in a "nice idea on the chat system, I like it, would it be possible to add "adsdasdfad" to it?"
DarkCloud_PK [A]: devs thrive on their content getting rave reviews
maximus_asinus [A]: another pro about it is that I can copy/paste text from the window, this is a great system.
DarkCloud_PK [A]: be sure to let him know
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i think thats what the last few pages of the huge classic thread is about
DarkCloud_PK [A]: devs getting bashed for their work
DarkCloud_PK [A]: when devs get bashed, it makes them more reluctant to work, not more inspired
DarkCloud_PK [A]: and the reverse is also true
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i am 100% sure that if people used that approach to suggest things to the dev team, it would ultimately yield more content
maximus_asinus [A]: I'll try
DarkCloud_PK [A]: the more compliments and positive response a dev team gets for their work, they more they will be inspired to do more
TheDae [A]: They dont do anything worth praising
DarkCloud_PK [A]: thats why i dont make events anymore, because people never gave me compliments or use the **** i made
maximus_asinus [A]: Dae, this system is a prime example of something good
DarkCloud_PK [A]: ok thedae, how about we just be stagnant for another 4 years
DarkCloud_PK [A]: by making the devs not want to work<br><b>DarkCloud_PK [A]: good idea
maximus_asinus [A]: toall is outdated and barely functioned as it was.
maximus_asinus [A]: now I can paste weblinks into a toall, and a person could copy/paste it into their browser
DarkCloud_PK [A]: i will take a bunch of content with a few flaws over none at all
DarkCloud_PK [A]: dunno about everyone else
maximus_asinus [A]: hey, if it is possible why don't make hyperlinking in the toall system?
DarkCloud_PK [A]: might be possible
DarkCloud_PK [A]: all these suggestions are good
DarkCloud_PK [L]: im going to post this toall log on the forums

Rufus
02-26-2009, 06:37 PM
DarkCloud_PK [A]: ok thedae, how about we just be stagnant for another 4 years

Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 06:43 PM
Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

Crimson2005
02-26-2009, 06:45 PM
The chat system is bollocks anyway, we now have to read messages we receive twice. Can't you just make toalls appear in the F2 window? I'm sure it used to do that when v2 was around...

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 06:47 PM
read the whole thing in there, i said, if theres a way to disable toalls with the chat window enabled, that would be easy to implement.

I personally hate how toalls work currently, and would rather have them in any sort of chat window

Rufus
02-26-2009, 06:48 PM
no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

How would the development team be more "inspired" through positive feedback of negative content?

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 06:51 PM
How would the development team be more "inspired" through positive feedback of negative content?

How is the chat system negative.
The only complaining I've heard is from you, everyone else has given positive feedback, even maximus likes it.

I never suggested to give positive feedback to crappy content, just to be less negative about it. Also to give positive feedback for good ideas and implementations, buggy or not. If there's some bugs, suggest some fixes with a positive tone, it'll end up getting a better response from your dev team.

maximus_asinus
02-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Always finding a reason to criticize, eh Rufus? Hey, does Bomy Island have a release date yet?

As for the chat system, it is a great idea in my opinion. Toall barely functioned as it was, this is a more useful system, and there is huge potential for this system. For me, it has eliminated the need to use the playerlist other than PMs (which I assume could be scripted into this system as well). I can copy/paste toall chat (useful for links), no longer will I miss messages if I accidently double-click. Down the road the system could get integrated into other systems, from interactions from NPCs, to something as big as event notification. I could go on and on about where this can go.

Rufus
02-26-2009, 07:02 PM
How is the chat system negative.
The only complaining I've heard is from you, everyone else has given positive feedback, even maximus likes it.

I never suggested to give positive feedback to crappy content, just to be less negative about it. Also to give positive feedback for good ideas and implementations, buggy or not. If there's some bugs, suggest some fixes with a positive tone, it'll end up getting a better response from your dev team.

Just because you have a good idea doesn’t mean it's a good idea to implement it. You haven't even heard any complaining from me, because I genuinely spoke to WhiteDragon about the chat system last night and suggested how it could be better implemented. I don't believe that the chat system is cohesive to the server though, it's more like adding new features which seem to be required as a baseline feature for a traditional MMO. Preexisting Graal systems do not mesh very well with it, even besides the toalls, there is nothing to account for guild messages for example.

I do give positive feedback for content that is cohesive to the server it is added, but adding something like this is like trying to be different for the sake of being different. I am pretty certain that Classic can be different and advance without undermining features which have existed for years and replacing them with generic MMO ones. By adding content that is completely different from the content which has existed for years alienates the players who feel as though Classic should be somewhat Classic. If those players who moan on for that content to return actually like this system, it's going to be pretty ironic really.

Crimson2005
02-26-2009, 07:03 PM
I just don't understand why it's there. Why has there been time spent on this npc which allows us to do what we could already? It's not exactly easier, I mean we still have to read and click the green/grey bubbles. Instead of traditional toguild: messages showing in it, why just not have /guild messages. Like what Zodiac has. After all that's what they're trying to emulate, right?

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 07:06 PM
I don't see the problem with its implimentation, it improves a lot of the problems associated with graal's current chat system.

toalls and toguilds are both horribly dated and dont work very well, honestly I don't like clicking messages every time I get one, i dont know who does.

sure there are some bugs but those can be improved. just because its a generic idea from somewhere else doesnt make it negative content. hell, graal in itself is a generic idea from another popular snes game, how it evolved since then is what matters. how this chat system evovles to adapt to classic is what matters.

-Ramirez-
02-26-2009, 07:16 PM
So we're going to take two steps backwards again?

Yes, remaking all those scripts might solve the problem if the HD worked out, but it'd set the dev team back even further.
I hope that was a response to Dusty's post and not mine. If it was about mine, I never said that myself or anyone else was going to take this route.

Rufus
02-26-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't see the problem with its implimentation, it improves a lot of the problems associated with graal's current chat system.

toalls and toguilds are both horribly dated and dont work very well, honestly I don't like clicking messages every time I get one, i dont know who does.

sure there are some bugs but those can be improved. just because its a generic idea from somewhere else doesnt make it negative content. hell, graal in itself is a generic idea from another popular snes game, how it evolved since then is what matters. how this chat system evovles to adapt to classic is what matters.

Is the system cohesive with the rest of the server? Is the system even cohesive default Graal features which have existed for years? I'm not going to stress a "it's not Classic because it didn't exist years ago!" argument because I find that an easy route to take when reviewing new content, but it isn't current adapting on what was there in a progressive nature, which is what Classic needs. The chat system is not cohesive nor consistent with Classic, especially aesthetically. It is an integrated offering of something we already had with the exception of chat logging and ease of viewing, which has many workarounds anyway.

You suggested that by releasing this half-done and inconsistent chat system it removes the stagnation of the server, but all you're really doing is leading the staff into a false sense of security with their releases. This might please a few people for a few hours, but it really isn't something that is worth logging on to see and you of all people should understand how important that is right now.

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 07:23 PM
I hope that was a response to Dusty's post and not mine. If it was about mine, I never said that myself or anyone else was going to take this route.

It was, since dusty suggested to fix all the scripts to work with default hd.

maximus_asinus
02-26-2009, 07:26 PM
Okay, so a generic chat system removes the stagnation from a server?

no, but its one element to a grander picture.
if people would praise the development team for the good things they release, with a few bugs or not, they'll end up being more inspired.

You suggested that by releasing this half-done and inconsistent chat system it removes the stagnation of the server, but all you're really doing is leading the staff into a false sense of security with their releases. This might please a few people for a few hours, but it really isn't something that is worth logging on to see and you of all people should understand how important that is right now.You suggested it. He disagreed.

This is a big picture item here, try to see past what it is now.

DarkCloud_PK
02-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Is the system cohesive with the rest of the server? Is the system even cohesive default Graal features which have existed for years? I'm not going to stress a "it's not Classic because it didn't exist years ago!" argument because I find that an easy route to take when reviewing new content, but it isn't current adapting on what was there in a progressive nature, which is what Classic needs. The chat system is not cohesive nor consistent with Classic, especially aesthetically. It is an integrated offering of something we already had with the exception of chat logging and ease of viewing, which has many workarounds anyway.

You suggested that by releasing this half-done and inconsistent chat system it removes the stagnation of the server, but all you're really doing is leading the staff into a false sense of security with their releases. This might please a few people for a few hours, but it really isn't something that is worth logging on to see and you of all people should understand how important that is right now.

Its togglable, so you can have whatever chat system you desire. old or new. The only incohesiveness is that toalls and toguilds appear twice, in the chat window and in the playerlist/minimap as a bubble.

I never suggested it removes the stagnation of the server, no one single release will please anyone for more than a few hours alone. I dont even expect cards to do that, and thats a HUGE project and a HUGE new release It's all part of a bigger picture.