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View Full Version : Do you approve of the state of Classic?(poll)


jacob_bald6225
08-14-2008, 07:18 AM
Well?

MysticX2X
08-14-2008, 07:26 AM
No. Most of the time the playercount can't reach above 15.

Umat
08-14-2008, 11:49 AM
Give me back Graal: The Adventure. Basically change the name of the server back, use the levels from 2004 and upgrade 'em

Codein
08-14-2008, 01:19 PM
Give me back Graal: The Adventure. Basically change the name of the server back, use the levels from 2004 and upgrade 'em

I'd much rather have GTA from 2002/2003

Umat
08-14-2008, 01:22 PM
Why? what's the difference?

Codein
08-14-2008, 01:52 PM
Why? what's the difference?

I don't know. I just remember it being really cool around that time. With Heras and what not.

Cow2001
08-14-2008, 02:37 PM
the levels from 2000/2001 were better

Darlene159
08-14-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't know. I just remember it being really cool around that time. With Heras and what not.Didnt most people not like the Heras?
I personally thought it was unique, and enjoyed them.

Codein
08-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Didnt most people not like the Heras?
I personally thought it was unique, and enjoyed them.

Heras were around when I first started playing. I loved them.

Umat
08-14-2008, 03:53 PM
I don't know. I just remember it being really cool around that time. With Heras and what not.

2004 also had heras until they had to switch to GS2. :(

Heras were around when I first started playing. I loved them.

I loved them too. I don't know why people disliked them. They made something extra to the quests.
"Bring back our heras and we'll give you a reward."

And it's pretty stupid to remove the levels that had been developed on in 6 years. It would most likely take another 4-5 years of the current crew to come even close to what Graal: The Adventure was in 2004.

The thing with old classic was that it had all the playermade levels that people had sent in during 1998-2001. Then when it went P2P the staff made awesome scripts and quests on that. Revamped some levels to make them better. etc. I've played all versions of the levels and I like the levels from 2001-2004 most because it felt most complete.

I remember the times you had to buy this "Ninja suit" to enter Master Li's domains to get a lvl 2 sword. This was pre 2000 and you couldn't change bodies. ;D That was a hard quest.

Darlene159
08-14-2008, 04:04 PM
Heras were around when I first started playing. I loved them.They came after I stopped playing Classic to work on N-pulse, but I went back to do the quests to get them. Quite enjoyable to me.


I remember the times you had to buy this "Ninja suit" to enter Master Li's domains to get a lvl 2 sword. This was pre 2000 and you couldn't change bodies. ;D That was a hard quest.That was awesome. :)

Sam
08-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Yeah the quests were awesome. I never got it, why they were deleted, instead of add new ones.
A server with quests isn't boring as long as you get something to improve your character. To earn heras was cool.

Codein
08-14-2008, 04:59 PM
Yeah the quests were awesome. I never got it, why they were deleted, instead of add new ones.
A server with quests isn't boring as long as you get something to improve your character. To earn heras was cool.

I agree. A project of mine, still in the design phase, will feature lots of interesting quests :) Not just dungeons and what not but you have to travel all over the overworld to complete them.

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 05:50 PM
Instead of deleting the quests(because face it, there were terrible in execution), they should just revamp and update them. The ideas for the quests are great, they just need to be fleshed out more. I'd love to see them take the basic idea of the quest, and create something totally new and interesting. That way, you can still have the nostalgic flavor, and also have something new.

Crono
08-14-2008, 06:51 PM
I don't really miss the quests, I miss the playercount.

People don't want to stay on Classic. When they log on they're in some tutorial, isolated from the rest of the server. No one wants this, and because of the already low playercount they feel there's no incentive to keep doing the tutorial.

Even those who complete it will simply quit because of the hit detection and go back to their respective servers (most likely UN).

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 06:58 PM
The new quests are terrible. This is an online game, not an offline RPG... we don't want to be FORCED and STUCK in quests and prisons and such for the first 5 hours of our experience. The WHOLE OVERWORLD should not be blocked away, either.

Now, blocking away the mountains and such is fine, but blocking the bridge, and not even letting us out of Big Brother's is a terrible way to introduce us to the world.

Umat
08-14-2008, 09:36 PM
People don't want to stay on Classic. When they log on they're in some tutorial, isolated from the rest of the server. No one wants this, and because of the already low playercount they feel there's no incentive to keep doing the tutorial.

People doesn't want to stay on Classic mainly because there's NOTHING to do. :P If there were any quests, more people would play. More quest = more items = happy crowd of people. The current staff is trying to recreate old Graal Classic but they're going to use that non-classic new worldmap to do it. Which feels as stupid as it sounds. Half of the map is covered of a big mountain where there's nothing to do at all. I miss the dull forest that used to be there (not because it was fun, just because it's nostalgic).

If Nintendo did a remake of a link to the past, I don't think they would remove the forest in the left-top corner of the map, just because it's a waste of space, to make something that's even more a waste of space. Or replace kakariko village with goron city just because "there should be gorons somewhere". Don't destroy what's already there, expand instead and make good transportation and information about the new place. Or make a good quest there that you'll need to do to continue to the next quest. Just like in Zelda, a link to the past. I don't think there's any place on that map you don't visit to finish the game, both on darkoverworld and regular overworld.

If I'd be manager of Classic I would totally remove everything on that server and replace with latest pack from 2004 and get a team willing to upgrade it to GS2. There is support for GS1 too, so it's not impossible to do at all. I hate the new movement on Classic. It sucks. Same with the camera that has a delay. awh, man I could complain all day but they'd never listen to me anyway.

I'll be going to get some coffee with my relatives.

May the :pluffy: be with you.

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 10:13 PM
To be honest, quests are just hooks. No one ever plays a server because of quests, frankly because there will never be enough to keep players actually occupied. Even on UN I could do most of the stuff in one day.

Quests hook the players, then you just have to hope a community forms that will keep players interested... at least, that's my opinion.

I'm not saying there doesn't need to be quests, but even if there were a lot of good quests, it would probably only keep players occupied for a week or so. It's more about community and content than quests that will keep a server living.

MysticX2X
08-14-2008, 10:30 PM
Post.
It was more active last year than it is now and there were less additions.

Crono
08-14-2008, 10:31 PM
People doesn't want to stay on Classic mainly because there's NOTHING to do. :P If there were any quests, more people would play. More quest = more items = happy crowd of people.

Yes and no.

There's indeed not much to do on Classic but that's because Graal revolves heavily around player interaction. how2ineract wen u hav no players????

Quests won't save a server. I probably only spent about 1-2 hours doing quests on UN and they were for hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield. Quests are just an obstacle to me. In the history of Graal there was only one quest I ever enjoyed doing and that was on Bravo Online. You had to go through some various areas to get pieces needed to make a car. It was fun as each part was different and was quite rewarding in the end (YOU GOT A CAR DUDE).

Umat
08-14-2008, 10:47 PM
To be honest, quests are just hooks. No one ever plays a server because of quests, frankly because there will never be enough to keep players actually occupied. Even on UN I could do most of the stuff in one day.
UN has quests? :S I play quests if there are any that is noticable. I didn't even notice that there was any quests at all. On any server except for Classic which has crappy ones.

A server need a story that tells you what to do next. If there isn't any noticeable story nor a noticeable path to any quests, I get bored. And UN looks like crap and works like crap. Day/night system was on a fritz for me. :S

Zodiac sucks. It's just newbie mashing and exping in some random dungeon you have to look for or ask a FAQ for. You shouldn't need to ask a FAQ how to start. Every server should have a optional tutorial and if they choose not to do it they could ask somebody about directions.

When I connect to Zone for the first time I have NO CLUE of what to do. Really. Graal Kingdoms is straight forward and tells you what to do in the beginning, but I don't like that server-style at all.

I really don't see any point of playing Graal at the moment really other than chatting with people while looking at pixelart. That's what you do mostly. I'm currently learning to script GS2 on a server a internet friend bought, just for the fun of it. I hope I'll learn enough to maybe be a part of Classic team and convert scripts from GS1 to GS2. etc.

EDIT:
Yes and no.

There's indeed not much to do on Classic but that's because Graal revolves heavily around player interaction. how2ineract wen u hav no players????

Quests won't save a server. I probably only spent about 1-2 hours doing quests on UN and they were for hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield. Quests are just an obstacle to me. In the history of Graal there was only one quest I ever enjoyed doing and that was on Bravo Online. You had to go through some various areas to get pieces needed to make a car. It was fun as each part was different and was quite rewarding in the end (YOU GOT A CAR DUDE).
We're obviously different from eachother. I don't care much for the interacting stuff other than it makes me feel not alone. I care more for the quests and receiving new items/tools/weapons to be able to complete another quest. Then when you got all stuff that is available you'll have a bunch of stuff that you're able to interact with. So while being busy at completing quests you're online at the time, people join and notice that there are people on the server. Those that doesn't do quests will obviously just disconnect, but if the quests on the server is rewarding and has a good story there'll be people stuck doing quests. Sooner or later it'll build up it's players. BUT nothing will happen if you just have levels to interact on and no quests. Quests/Missions/Stories do much for a game.

Would you play tetris if you weren't able to add or remove blocks but only chat? :P Yeah, I know, bad symbolic, but I hope you see my point. Nothing to do = No people interested.

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 10:54 PM
UN has quests? :S I play quests if there are any that is noticable. I didn't even notice that there was any quests at all. On any server except for Classic which has crappy ones.

A server need a story that tells you what to do next. If there isn't any noticeable story nor a noticeable path to any quests, I get bored. And UN looks like crap and works like crap. Day/night system was on a fritz for me. :S

Zodiac sucks. It's just newbie mashing and exping in some random dungeon you have to look for or ask a FAQ for. You shouldn't need to ask a FAQ how to start. Every server should have a optional tutorial and if they choose not to do it they could ask somebody about directions.

When I connect to Zone for the first time I have NO CLUE of what to do. Really. Graal Kingdoms is straight forward and tells you what to do in the beginning, but I don't like that server-style at all.

I really don't see any point of playing Graal at the moment really other than chatting with people while looking at pixelart. That's what you do mostly. I'm currently learning to script GS2 on a server a internet friend bought, just for the fun of it. I hope I'll learn enough to maybe be a part of Classic team and convert scripts from GS1 to GS2. etc.

You're not going to find 'good' quests on Graal. EVER.
There may be one or two that are okay, but you're not gonna find quests on the level of Zelda... this is an online game, so you're going to have a lot of online elements involved. Other players and such. Now, you could have quests that involve multiple players, but that takes a lot of planning and a cunning mind to come up with a great quest. Even quests just involving you... is a pain to set up in an online environment. You need to lower your standards for Graal, honestly.

The best you're going to get are probably push a block here and there, kill a baddy, and go fetch this. This is okay though, because with a good mind and a little originality, you can mold these things into something interesting and fun. Classic has the right idea with their quests, and the one with the changing water levels is okay, but I'd have enjoyed it a lot more if I wasn't FORCED to do it. More is possible, but just don't expect it. Great quests like Zelda dungeons take a lot of planning and thinking, and all kinds of other elements that I just don't think anyone around here is capable of. They could be capable of it, but for whatever reasons, you probably never going to see it done.

Rufus
08-14-2008, 10:57 PM
Quests are only entertaining for the short amount of time you're doing them for. It's annoying to see the vast majority of developers giving themselves a false sense of security with quests, but maybe people haven't thought about it all too much or have a rosy view of what Classic used to be like. Graal The Adventure was dying before the NPC Server came anyway.

I disagree what Dusty said above however.

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 11:03 PM
I disagree what Dusty said above however.
I knew you would :P

Tyhm
08-14-2008, 11:05 PM
I liked the old quests...

And yes, they're just hooks, exactly. The point is if you're new to the game, you can play the quests; it's a good way to figure out if it's worth keeping this game or not. IDEALLY the point would be if you're Old to the game you can play some quality quests when nobody else is online, but sadly they've never had much replay value...and what's the Point if you start out with all the goodies?

The argument is frequently made that people should have the option of skipping all the quests and starting with all the hearts and swords and shields they could ever want...I think the oft-revised Spar Zones does that nicely, as you can spar from the get-go, the only thing you can't do is PK.
(But I've always discouraged PKing, so there's my bias speaking again)

Maybe all the Cool Stuff should be quests, and all the PKing/Sparring/Simple Interaction stuff should be free...actually, that wouldn't be too hard to code, would it? All PvP using a different Sword and HP variableset; you quest to get more hearts and better baddy-killing swords, but in PvP it's [3] strikes, you're out, regardless. Or 5, simulate the Blood Axe And 10 Hearts days. You don't have to quest to get stronger at PvP, and you can't anyway, so everyone's even.

jacob_bald6225
08-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Graal The Adventure was dying before the NPC Server came anyway.

Thats because of the resources being put in to preparing for the npcserver and the abandonment of ideas. I still want nations and all those cool powers.

Tyhm
08-14-2008, 11:09 PM
Thats because of the resources being put in to preparing for the npcserver and the abandonment of ideas. I still want nations and all those cool powers.

Dood, I totally want to be able to replace my sword with the Zorbi wand. That **** was hillarious, I don't care if I'm being prideful or whatever, it was. And the hammer throw? Walking through Graal and this guy's on fire, that guy's smashed down, that baddy's bouncing around trapped in a bubble...

Umat
08-14-2008, 11:10 PM
You're not going to find 'good' quests on Graal. EVER.
There may be one or two that are okay, but you're not gonna find quests on the level of Zelda... this is an online game, so you're going to have a lot of online elements involved. Other players and such. Now, you could have quests that involve multiple players, but that takes a lot of planning and a cunning mind to come up with a great quest. Even quests just involving you... is a pain to set up in an online environment. You need to lower your standards for Graal, honestly.

The best you're going to get are probably push a block here and there, kill a baddy, and go fetch this. This is okay though, because with a good mind and a little originality, you can mold these things into something interesting and fun. Classic has the right idea with their quests, and the one with the changing water levels is okay, but I'd have enjoyed it a lot more if I wasn't FORCED to do it. More is possible, but just don't expect it. Great quests like Zelda dungeons take a lot of planning and thinking, and all kinds of other elements that I just don't think anyone around here is capable of. They could be capable of it, but for whatever reasons, you probably never going to see it done.
My expectations isn't too high at all. I liked the old Graal: The Adventure Quests, they were simple, yes. My point wasn't to make BETTER quests, I just want staff to have some quests at all or good directions to where to find them without asking staff where to find them.

jacob_bald6225
08-14-2008, 11:11 PM
Dood, I totally want to be able to replace my sword with the Zorbi wand. That **** was hillarious, I don't care if I'm being prideful or whatever, it was. And the hammer throw? Walking through Graal and this guy's on fire, that guy's smashed down, that baddy's bouncing around trapped in a bubble...

And the Lunaris nukes that shot fire everywhere:(

Umat
08-14-2008, 11:15 PM
Dood, I totally want to be able to replace my sword with the Zorbi wand. That **** was hillarious, I don't care if I'm being prideful or whatever, it was. And the hammer throw? Walking through Graal and this guy's on fire, that guy's smashed down, that baddy's bouncing around trapped in a bubble...
I really liked YOUR work on the server. I recollect that it was you that did most of the fun stuff on Graal Classic.

Anyway I'm slipping away from the subject. I'd just like graal classic to go back to being Graal: The Adventure and take back all the old levels. Now there isn't even an reason for oldbies to stick around on classic. :(

jacob_bald6225
08-14-2008, 11:18 PM
I think the most appeal was that it was an online world where anything (within reason) could get uploaded. The fact that there were large websites online chronicling walkthroughs for quests, secret hiding places online, and every little NPC helped things out a bundle too... there was just a ton of content put in to a small world.

Now they've started their new world by building the overworld first and content later. This means that content will be a lot more scarce than it was before. Like all of the empty houses on the world.

excaliber7388
08-14-2008, 11:20 PM
The world seems smaller and there's less to do. Nothing but sitting around and playing the occasional quest. Of course 96/o of people disapprove.

Umat
08-14-2008, 11:22 PM
I think the most appeal was that it was an online world where anything (within reason) could get uploaded.
Why not take that back? Let people send an email to [email protected] with a homemade head, level, gani, weapon, whatever and put some staff to look the stuff through and see if it's worth to add. I think it would be a great idea. Get the people to interact.

The problem with todays developers is that they know too much about the scripting language and overdoes it.

jacob_bald6225
08-14-2008, 11:32 PM
Why not take that back? Let people send an email to [email protected] with a homemade head, level, gani, weapon, whatever and put some staff to look the stuff through and see if it's worth to add. I think it would be a great idea. Get the people to interact.

The problem with todays developers is that they know too much about the scripting language and overdoes it.

:( I think I suggested this to the people in charge before and was turned down.

That is a huge problem with todays developers too... everything has to "work right" which triples dev time and raises standards too high for the average player. I remember being GC and having to constantly update levels of the quests to get them to work... but people still played them even though they worked like 50 percent of the time.

Tyhm
08-14-2008, 11:39 PM
Smaller World isn't such a bad thing. One of my biggest mistakes was making the world too big - 300ish levels on the overworld, another 300 underwater, another 300 or so Inside levels, and 200 players, you're not likely to run into anyone for a while.

DustyPorViva
08-14-2008, 11:53 PM
House uploading was a very big part of Classic... it should still be. Remove all old unimportant playerhouses and let the new players fill them in. I mean, let's face it, playerhouses molded the classic overworld back in the day.

farte6
08-15-2008, 12:30 AM
Make it a good online video game....

Demisis_P2P
08-15-2008, 06:10 AM
who voted yes? u ruined everything.

jorollychu
08-15-2008, 07:26 AM
over the 4 years since classic got an NPC server instead of converting all the old content master storm decided to create a new movement system and serverside HD (both useless and the serverside HD is actually extremely frustrating). I have heard he is now developing a new movement system. Over those 4 years most quests and items could have been updated to gs2. Instead, we have nothing, and nothing is done about the ever so invisible management.

Mark Sir Link
08-15-2008, 07:53 AM
I disapprov

Polo
08-15-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm not really sure who voted that they approve; I think the vast majority of us agree that Classic is far from perfect right now. Let me comment on some of the things you have said in turn.


The overworld
With the current player count, the large map simply means you spend most of the time wandering around without any interaction with other players, ultimately making things feel lonely and boring. A smaller map would be preferable. I also feel that the map itself is too 'open'. By this I mean that it feels like a large open space which can be walked through in anyway the player chooses, rather than having a serious of set routes and paths. The overworld should be fun to explore, not just an open sea of trees. For example, rather than simply telling a player that town X is to the east, the player should instead have to be told that to reach town X the must travel slightly north and then take the path through the mountains. Those pathways should be almost like mini quests in themselves; once the player progresses faster ways to traverse the map become available such as boats, the warp ring etc.

Using the old levels
When I first became Manage, the plan was to finish up Tyhm's conversion of the existing levels as soon as possible and release them alongside the NPC server. Unfortunately, I only had a short period of time to do this and it soon became very clear that the level of work still required was far greater that the amount of resources I had to achieve it. For what it's worth, at the point I took over, it was not even possible to complete the starting training quest on the development server. For about a month I worked tirelessly with Selflon to make things work, but ultimately we were just fixing things with short term hacks/solutions and still not progressing fast enough. It was after discussing the situation with Stefan that he suggested starting from scratch with a core set of levels, getting them to work perfectly and building up from there. With the time available, the only other solution would have been to take Classic down until everything was converted (and few servers that go hidden ever return). Note that I agreed to allow a group of players convert the old overworld but they 'lost' the levels halfway through the task and never completed things. Also note that as mentioned previously we were losing players with the content immediately before the switch, and so whilst it may be better, it's still not going to help us.

Quests
Quests are not a good use of development time. Making an interesting and enjoyable quests is quite difficult, requires coordination of multiple development staff and ultimately leads to maybe an hour or two of content at the end, with no replay value. By contrast, something like an event prize can be made with much less effort but probably keeps a player entertained for longer. Of course, this does not mean that we should have no quests at all; they serve as a good way of forcing the player to explore and can be useful for capturing new players. When a server so desperately requires new content, it's hard not to argue that the time can be better spent elsewhere. As for making quests optional, I cannot agree. A player should always have to do a quest to get the reward from it; I guess core things such as swords and hearts can be put in shorter/easier quests, leaving the larger quests for non-essential items (which the player can then choose to avoid). The suggestion that quests should be easy to find, with each quest leading from one to the next is a good one, and is something we are already working towards achieving.

Hit detection/systems
When the decision was made to build up from just a core set of levels, one of the first problems encountered was that bombs and arrows did not work of GMaps, and the default built-in enemies seemed extremely buggy under the NPC server. I originally only wanted to use scripted bombs/arrows, but from discussion with Stefan it soon became clear that to get things working smoothly I'd have to make the entire thing serverside. I'm not sure how bombs/arrows behave under NPC server now, but there's certainly now the possibility to make dual clientside/serverside hit detection which would massively improve things. Unfortunately, we now have a ton of scripts that rely on the current systems, making it hard to add the functionality. This is one of the reasons I want to build new systems up from scratch.

Player submissions
Because of the systems now being used, a number of minor things in scripts have to be done slightly differently, and this ultimately makes the checking process longer for player submissions. Because of the need to focus on getting quests or other content up, it was initially decided to restrict submissions to guild houses or other large structures (such as spar arenas). I'd be happy to reopen full submissions if I could ensure that it wouldn't overwhelm the development team. Certainly, if anyone wants to convert some major old landmarks or even modernize some of the old quests they are more than welcome to.

Heras, health restriction etc.
Hera's and the restricting of health at low AP were two things which I was never really sure of personally. Hera's worked at first, but suddenly you were required to do 7 or 8 quests just to get a heart, and that could be quite frustrating. Health restriction made sparring and PKing awkward, as I much prefer a longer fight that a series of deaths in quick succession. When I launched the NPC server, these were two of the major thing I asked players about, and the general decision seemed to be to remove them. Ultimately the players have since changed their minds, as they have now voted them both back in. As with all these minor things we just need to decide one way or another whether to have them and then stick with the decision. It's not good to continuously make fundamental changes to a server.

Nations
Nations in itself was quite a good idea, but as a player it always concerned me that Classic was moving away from it's 'core values'. I certainly remember that many players complained when races were introduced. Whilst I think it'd be interesting to see the ideas implemented as a new server, I still cant help but feel that if implemented on Classic, much of what originally appealed about Classic would be lost. I guess everyone has their own ideas on this though, and it's certainly possible to try and design some best middle ground that has the variety and flavour of nations, but still retains the same old Classic charm.

I know this has been a long post, but I hope that some of you will actually bother to read it and perhaps understand why certain decisions were made and why certain things have been done. As I said at the start of the post, we're a long way away from the position we want to be in, and a lot of work still needs to be done to rectify that. I'm always happy to take suggestions on what to do with Classic, but you have to remember that I have to balance both what the oldbies and nostalgic few amongst us want, alongside things which are going to appeal to and bring in new players.

Thanks for reading. :)

Umat
08-15-2008, 03:24 PM
Using the old levels
When I first became Manage, the plan was to finish up Tyhm's conversion of the existing levels as soon as possible and release them alongside the NPC server. Unfortunately, I only had a short period of time to do this and it soon became very clear that the level of work still required was far greater that the amount of resources I had to achieve it. For what it's worth, at the point I took over, it was not even possible to complete the starting training quest on the development server. For about a month I worked tirelessly with Selflon to make things work, but ultimately we were just fixing things with short term hacks/solutions and still not progressing fast enough. It was after discussing the situation with Stefan that he suggested starting from scratch with a core set of levels, getting them to work perfectly and building up from there. With the time available, the only other solution would have been to take Classic down until everything was converted (and few servers that go hidden ever return). Note that I agreed to allow a group of players convert the old overworld but they 'lost' the levels halfway through the task and never completed things. Also note that as mentioned previously we were losing players with the content immediately before the switch, and so whilst it may be better, it's still not going to help us.

Instead of making new levels and remove all old you could've just removed all npcs and put blocking-NPC's where there were quests etc until it's done. One question though, do you plan to revert the upper part of the map to the way it was instead of those mountains?

DrakilorP2P
08-15-2008, 03:35 PM
I approve with the current state of Graal Classic. It's not out of spite or any personal vendetta, I just genuinely enjoy playing it.
For instance, I made friends with this grey guy in a dark room. Many friendly hugs were distributed. He enjoyed my company so much he wouldn't let me out. ;)

WhiteDragon
08-16-2008, 05:11 AM
Storm, I am sure everyone appreciates your writeup, but maybe you should come on and manage.

I really never thought bureaucracy could leak into Graal.

jorollychu
08-16-2008, 06:05 AM
whitedragon maybe he should manage your ctf hammers

WhiteDragon
08-16-2008, 06:15 AM
whitedragon maybe he should manage your ctf hammers
The humor is appreciated, but don't you think he could be doing something more useful if he was actually on the server? Perhaps managing your ability to see and also your ability to loose 7-0 flawless and blame it on something no one thinks I did.

Tyhm
08-16-2008, 06:35 AM
Psh, bureaucracy has always been a part of Graal. It's inescapable.

Say you wanna script a quest. Well, if you want it online, you gotta join the LAT. But as a LAT member, all you can do is MAKE the quest, to UPLOAD or APPROVE or PLACE it, you gotta be the LAT Admin. So you work your way up to LAT Admin. But LAT Admins gotta handle Hiring, and Firing, and Corruption, and Coordinate with the other Admins, and fight for Stefan's attention, and take player submissions...and really, it's the Server Manager who decides what should go where, so you gotta work your way up further...

Here's the problem; the most talented, tenacious and dedicated workers are rewarded by being pulled into a desk job where they can't use their skills. They get bogged down with secretarial responsibilities. And the alternative is let someone Else be in charge of Them who Doesn't know how, say, the movement system works.

No escaping bureaucracy.

('course, if it was up to me there'd be an executive wing that handles hirings, firings, etc., and Accepts That It Doesn't Have Any Business Meddling With Levels - and a Dev wing that did all the actual worldbuilding...)

jacob_bald6225
08-16-2008, 07:05 AM
Psh, bureaucracy has always been a part of Graal. It's inescapable.

Say you wanna script a quest. Well, if you want it online, you gotta join the LAT. But as a LAT member, all you can do is MAKE the quest, to UPLOAD or APPROVE or PLACE it, you gotta be the LAT Admin. So you work your way up to LAT Admin. But LAT Admins gotta handle Hiring, and Firing, and Corruption, and Coordinate with the other Admins, and fight for Stefan's attention, and take player submissions...and really, it's the Server Manager who decides what should go where, so you gotta work your way up further...

Here's the problem; the most talented, tenacious and dedicated workers are rewarded by being pulled into a desk job where they can't use their skills. They get bogged down with secretarial responsibilities. And the alternative is let someone Else be in charge of Them who Doesn't know how, say, the movement system works.

No escaping bureaucracy.

('course, if it was up to me there'd be an executive wing that handles hirings, firings, etc., and Accepts That It Doesn't Have Any Business Meddling With Levels - and a Dev wing that did all the actual worldbuilding...)
Perhaps if there were someone managing all of this hiring and firing. Who could manage a job like that though? I can't imanage a position that would be fit doing that.

Tyhm
08-16-2008, 03:21 PM
Exactly. It'd mean giving All the power to someone who doesn't code or GP or FAQ, and Trusting them not to arbitrarily fire the head of the LAT and reverse all his decisions.
In a sense, having an admin who wants the world to do well, but has no strong opinions on how to do that and doesn't care if the admins seem to be going the opposite direction for an indefinite time.
So the Dev Head says "I need more guys who can code", and the Admin hires them; the players say "Guy A's corrupt", and the Admin investigates, (consults with that Guy A's superiors) and fires Guy A...
It's the kind of thing one generally has to pay someone for. I don't wanna do it, I'd wanna tell the LAT to do things my way, and I'd wanna spend my time developing, not gerrymandering...

Thrashsoul3
08-16-2008, 08:22 PM
I don't know what your talking about Dusty, the quests in classic gave me weeks of entertainment. The desert dungeon was awesome, and I've yet to see something as impressive as it on graal.

DustyPorViva
08-16-2008, 09:17 PM
I don't know what your talking about Dusty, the quests in classic gave me weeks of entertainment. The desert dungeon was awesome, and I've yet to see something as impressive as it on graal.
I finished many quests on Classic in a few hours. Of course, this is all subjective.

DarkCloud_PK
08-16-2008, 11:17 PM
Oh my god I do not see why people are putting such an emphasis on quests.
Quests are a small piece to such a big puzzle that is a successful server, and compared to the other pieces, quests are quite small.

The biggest importance quests play is that of trying to hook newbies into playing long enough to build their character and get into the game, make some friends, play some events or whatever else your server has to offer.

Most people who continue playing this game grow tired of quests eventually, specially single player ones where theres no player interaction. Multiplayer quests might be a different story and peak some old interests but the fact remains the same.

Quests are there to build up your character and provide a few hours of fun, mostly to newbies trying to get into the game or people new to that server. They won't, however, give you days/weeks/months of entertainment unless you're some weirdo that would make new accounts for the sake of replaying the same quests over and over. Even with the amount of quests in GTA, it would take maybe two days tops on average to get those done. What do you have after that? Well, that's whats going to make or break the server.

With that said, the old GTA levels arent a large part of what made the old days fun. They contributed to the fun but they did not make that server what it was, why it was fun. If you think that, you're blind or just really had some creepy love affair for some levels and are probably the same people who raise **** fits when the path in level14 gets some sort of minute tile change.

If you released a fully functional GTA from 2004/2002/2000 or WHATEVER year. It would initally get a ton of players because of the hype, and once that hype died down in a week, maybe a month tops, the server would implode on itself and become a ghosttown. It's happened with Graal 2001 when they tried to bring that back a few years ago, it happened with "Graal 2000" when they tried to bring back pre GTA classic. It would either stagnate with the old levels and eventually bore everyone away with nothing new ever happening, or you'd have to appoint a LAT Admin to progress GTA further, which would end up being a huge mess since that LAT Admin would end up doing something awful in the players eyes, either by reshaping the old into something new or making something that doesnt fit in GTA. Unless you find some LAT Admin that mindlessly follows in the footsteps of the last LAT Admin and doesnt even think for a second to mold or remold something in their vision of how things should be done. Good luck with that, because that LAT Admin doesnt exist.

What makes a server successful? Community, and something constantly fun that hooks people to stay around, to log back in instead of somewhere else, if even at all.

The community is what made the old days fun, that and the fact that there was something being released all the time, always something new. That old community isnt coming back. Not for a GTA rerelease, nothing, those old days aren't coming back, they're dead in the past. As for something new, noone debates that Classic needs a torrent of new content on a constant basis, but its gotta be more of a hook than a new quest or even a bunch of new quests, Classic doesnt have the luxury of having a big playercount anymore,that playercount was a big part of what brought people in and kept them playing.
It's going to be hard for Classic to come back, it is hard to make a new community without there already being one. Some new quests aren't going to cut it on creating a community, you need a lot bigger hooks than that, something ADDICTING that makes people log back on, makes people bring their friends to play because its so damn fun/addicting.

I won't go into specifics on what to hook players with because the options are only limited by the willpower to work, the imagination, and knowledge of what would work vs what won't of Classic's dev team. Or you could be like Zodiac and just rehash whats proved to work.

Freudian_slip
10-19-2008, 02:02 AM
I honestly loved the quests on Graal the Adeventure. It was the only reason i even played that server, honestly. Ever since that server went down quests in general sucked balls, other than Bravo's. I kinda wish someone would make quests similar to Zeldas. it may take a LOT of work (scripting, GFX, LAT, etc), but it'd be worth it.


...or mayeb a sports server. Graal Baseball, football and bowling ftw.