PDA

View Full Version : Massokre's Classic Discussion (split from Warning about graalians.com)


Pages : [1] 2

jake13jake
11-19-2005, 12:30 AM
hey galen, want to make a nice house for classic and put it in stefan's house, since he apparently isn't interested in remaking his house?

Minoc
11-19-2005, 01:01 AM
hey galen, want to make a nice house for classic and put it in stefan's house, since he apparently isn't interested in remaking his house?
Can't you use his old one?

jake13jake
11-19-2005, 06:15 PM
it doesn't really fit into all of the other new houses we're putting in.

Minoc
11-19-2005, 06:19 PM
it doesn't really fit into all of the other new houses we're putting in.
Why?
I thought Classic houses are supposed to be in an old classic style.

jake13jake
11-20-2005, 12:58 AM
Why?
I thought Classic houses are supposed to be in an old classic style.
They're supposed to be eye-appealing and use tiles in ways they don't look error-ish, which is why I hate house bricks.

Minoc
11-20-2005, 06:59 AM
They're supposed to be eye-appealing and use tiles in ways they don't look error-ish, which is why I hate house bricks.
You could easily fix the tile errors in his old house.

jake13jake
11-20-2005, 07:23 AM
You could easily fix the tile errors in his old house.
It's the layout, not the tile errors. It's a shame that Stefan has better judgment than anyone he hires to make judgment.

Minoc
11-20-2005, 07:25 AM
It's the layout, not the tile errors.
But Classic houses are supposed to be using that layout.

jake13jake
11-20-2005, 07:36 AM
But Classic houses are supposed to be using that layout.
Onnet Town's old houses are just bland, that's a fact.

James205
11-20-2005, 08:39 AM
Onnet Town's old houses are just bland, that's a fact.

There is meaning to the level and why it's bland. It's a good example of how much general levels on graal have evolved. Why improve the originals? They are more valuble than most levels currently on graal.

You say you hate those bricks? I like them and im sure many other oldbies from graal do too. Leave the levels how they are.

sage_scooby
11-20-2005, 06:45 PM
There is meaning to the level and why it's bland. It's a good example of how much general levels on graal have evolved. Why improve the originals? They are more valuble than most levels currently on graal.

You say you hate those bricks? I like them and im sure many other oldbies from graal do too. Leave the levels how they are.


I agree I think classic houses should have the simple classic style. I still wish the old classic was back so meh...

jake13jake
11-20-2005, 07:21 PM
There is meaning to the level and why it's bland. It's a good example of how much general levels on graal have evolved. Why improve the originals? They are more valuble than most levels currently on graal.

You say you hate those bricks? I like them and im sure many other oldbies from graal do too. Leave the levels how they are.

The bricks, you just can't go without ever having the colors not line up in the bricks. By the way, you're pretty active on Classic to really care about what happens to it anyway.

James205
11-21-2005, 04:08 AM
The bricks, you just can't go without ever having the colors not line up in the bricks. By the way, you're pretty active on Classic to really care about what happens to it anyway.

Great sarcasm but... what the hell does me being ACTIVE have anything to do with this? I've been around graal for a while and so have many people.

You're completely forgetting about the concept of CLASSIC, there is a reason for the title.

Minoc
11-21-2005, 07:04 PM
It's a shame that Stefan has better judgment than anyone he hires to make judgment.
Who are you talking about? :|

Minoc
11-21-2005, 07:08 PM
Onnet Town's old houses are just bland, that's a fact.
I like them.
Classic should have classic levels, otherwise it's not worthy of its name.

jake13jake
11-21-2005, 08:54 PM
I like them.
Classic should have classic levels, otherwise it's not worthy of its name.
Classic should have classic elements, not necessarily classic levels.

James205
11-21-2005, 09:57 PM
Classic should have classic elements, not necessarily classic levels.

And when the hell did you decide what CLASSIC should have? Classic is CLASSIC, not what jake13jake wants it to be.

Stop being ignorant.

Minoc
11-21-2005, 10:00 PM
Classic should have classic elements, not necessarily classic levels.
And what are classic elements?
You're changing both the levels and the style.

ApothiX
11-21-2005, 10:59 PM
Wow, you guys certainly changed the topic fast. jake13jake, why didn't you just PM galen and ask him that, instead of going completely off topic?

jake13jake
11-22-2005, 04:37 AM
Wow, you guys certainly changed the topic fast. jake13jake, why didn't you just PM galen and ask him that, instead of going completely off topic?
Going off topic is funnier.

Minoc
11-23-2005, 01:00 AM
Wow, you guys certainly changed the topic fast. jake13jake, why didn't you just PM galen and ask him that, instead of going completely off topic?
The topic is dead anyway.

Corp1
11-23-2005, 07:57 AM
Yeah, he is gonna remake Zol's into a nightclub....and put lava in level13 as well.

Minoc
11-23-2005, 09:38 AM
Yeah, he is gonna remake Zol's into a nightclub....and put lava in level13 as well.
I hope you're kidding. :|

jake13jake
11-23-2005, 09:49 AM
I hope you're kidding. :|
Nah, Zol's is great. I would probably add beer to all of those places and that's about it. Actually, it's Galen's house I'm turning into a nightclub, and Stefan's house into a fishing place. Mwaahahahaaha... Although, right now I'm banned and I don't know why. It's quite the confusing situation, so I can't really do any of that right now, and my LATs are going to running out of their 50 gajillion assignments, so I might have to reassign the less active LAT's works. I mean, Racil's made some really good levels that nobody's going to see for a while. Like 80% of everything is going to be releasable with clientside GS2, and everyone's going to be so whiney that the first few quests are easy... but they're supposed to be easy. A lot of the scripting that needs to happen is system stuff, which Storm is supposed to take care of. We will want to see
1. improved movement system
2. improved HD system
3. save points and a better warp ring system (largely for security reasons)
4. improved carry object system (which I hope takes advantage of updateboard on gmaps)
5. improved bomb system (extending mostly from carry object system).
6. an actual projectile system (the default one is driving me insane).

And then it's mostly me working on baddies, but I've been putting them off trying to focus on getting levels done. Just need trolls and turtles for gnome caves, then the leafy guy and spiders etc for kull's.

syltburk
11-23-2005, 04:45 PM
man ur not gonna add anything..

jacob_bald6225
11-24-2005, 02:18 AM
The whole Classic idea to me was not a paticular style, but adding on to what there was already and making it better and better as it went, but with all of the old levels gone it would make sense to bring back some things and build from where we are... Yah!

jake13jake
11-24-2005, 03:30 AM
man ur not gonna add anything..
man, u were assigned that forest island that Mighty had started for SO LONG. I wouldn't be assigning all of this work if I wasn't going to use it.

haunter
11-24-2005, 06:13 AM
Stop trying to destroy history.

jake13jake
11-24-2005, 06:30 AM
Stop trying to destroy history.
I also want to put the otherworlders on the desert island quest, and I want to replace Supernick's with a slightly upgraded NLs. Latter is less likely to happen.

So I like to use history, just make it more functional.

syltburk
11-26-2005, 01:13 PM
man, u were assigned that forest island that Mighty had started for SO LONG. I wouldn't be assigning all of this work if I wasn't going to use it.
You don't understand, I don't want an modernized classic.

Crono
11-26-2005, 02:35 PM
Classic needs updating but it needs "old skool" updates that are not influenced by today's style.

Clash
11-26-2005, 04:28 PM
Stop trying to destroy history.

It's 1984 all over again! :\

StrykerTFFD
11-26-2005, 07:07 PM
Stop trying to destroy history.

Classic needs updating but it needs "old skool" updates that are not influenced by today's style.


Agreed.

jake13jake
11-27-2005, 12:34 AM
Classic needs updating but it needs "old skool" updates that are not influenced by today's style.
I don't even know what today's style looks like because I've never played any other server besides Classic, except for like a months run on Shaded Legend before it went to hell graphically.

Minoc
11-27-2005, 05:17 PM
I don't even know what today's style looks like because I've never played any other server besides Classic, except for like a months run on Shaded Legend before it went to hell graphically.
Today's style = your style.

jake13jake
11-27-2005, 10:56 PM
Today's style = your style.
I honestly just want things to blend together. A horse barn made out of brick, for instance, wouldn't make sense at all.

Minoc
11-30-2005, 12:57 AM
A horse barn made out of brick, for instance, wouldn't make sense at all.
How is that related to remaking old houses?

StrykerTFFD
11-30-2005, 01:37 AM
Minoc for Mayor of Classic gogogo

jake13jake
11-30-2005, 08:31 AM
How is that related to remaking old houses?
uhh.. I'm bringing back Miser's house and adventurers pub, and hopefully some babord houses. I brought back Stefan's house, recently added a welcome mat and got rid of the side room where there used to be a warp to wherever. I might put the pub under the bridge in that house by the bridge.

Minoc
11-30-2005, 11:25 PM
uhh.. I'm bringing back Miser's house and adventurers pub, and hopefully some babord houses. I brought back Stefan's house, recently added a welcome mat and got rid of the side room where there used to be a warp to wherever. I might put the pub under the bridge in that house by the bridge.
Bringing back or remaking?
Regardless, these houses are not enough.

jake13jake
12-01-2005, 02:42 AM
I'm bringing back the houses that I can use quest-wise. Pretty much anything I'm changing is going to be for quest purposes, and anything I'm keeping is going to be for quest purposes. The only cases I can't argue for are the Onnet Bar and the shape of the overworld, which will be similar, but Destiny won't exist (yet anyway), Babord will be much different kindof split up into two places, Sylphia will be a bit smaller, but Sylphia was pretty empty to begin with. I'll probably see if I can bring back Nimda for the forest island, but the dungeon will be different. The water fall on Mount Sylphia is gone, and Nafet's river is going to be an actual river rather than a channel. That's going to make an interesting quest. Yea though, a lot of stuff has to be redone.

James205
12-01-2005, 03:22 PM
I'm bringing back the houses that I can use quest-wise. Pretty much anything I'm changing is going to be for quest purposes, and anything I'm keeping is going to be for quest purposes. The only cases I can't argue for are the Onnet Bar and the shape of the overworld, which will be similar, but Destiny won't exist (yet anyway), Babord will be much different kindof split up into two places, Sylphia will be a bit smaller, but Sylphia was pretty empty to begin with. I'll probably see if I can bring back Nimda for the forest island, but the dungeon will be different. The water fall on Mount Sylphia is gone, and Nafet's river is going to be an actual river rather than a channel. That's going to make an interesting quest. Yea though, a lot of stuff has to be redone.

Man why not just reupload the old levels (of course make sure there is no old conflicting scripts) and let is be CLASSIC. Nothing needs to be improved because the whole purpose of CLASSIC is to be CLASSIC and you're not understanding that. I thought the whole reason of changing classic again was to bring it back to how it used to be. It's just taking the steps of what happened before, a complete loop :(

Darlene159
12-01-2005, 04:50 PM
Man why not just reupload the old levels (of course make sure there is no old conflicting scripts) and let is be CLASSIC. Nothing needs to be improved because the whole purpose of CLASSIC is to be CLASSIC and you're not understanding that. I thought the whole reason of changing classic again was to bring it back to how it used to be. It's just taking the steps of what happened before, a complete loop :(Normally I would disagree with you about changing PW's to update to the times, but I agree when it comes to Classic.
Classic is just that....Classic
The first PW, the one that started Graal.
I think it should remain Classic, showing people how it all started, how far Graal has come.
I miss the Classic days before the Hera stuff, where I would sit on top of Deetos house (I think it was), and pk anyone who dared come on top.
No other PW has ever come close to that...no other PW ever will.
I would like it back.
No, you can't bring back the Community from back then, but you can bring back what started the Graal Revolution, and build on it again :)

Polo
12-01-2005, 06:51 PM
For me, I wan't to update Classic interms of its content - better features etc to draw in new players, but the style of the content should be going more Classicy. I already removed the notion of Hera's as I felt these we're not 'Classic', switched the start location back to Brothers House etc...

Trying to aim for the best trade off between the two - bringing back Classic's charm, whilst still appealing to new players. ^^

syltburk
12-01-2005, 06:52 PM
For me, I wan't to update Classic interms of its content - better features etc to draw in new players, but the style of the content should be going more Classicy. I already removed the notion of Hera's as I felt these we're not 'Classic', switched the start location back to Brothers House etc...

Trying to aim for the best trade off between the two - bringing back Classic's charm, whilst still appealing to new players. ^^
But the real classic were appealing :(, at least to me. I loved everything about it

Malinko
12-01-2005, 07:03 PM
Classic just needs to keep being developed rather than the few things it has right now.

StrykerTFFD
12-02-2005, 12:20 AM
Classic just needs to keep being developed rather than the few things it has right now.

Thanks, Captain Obvious. :rolleyes:

We just have a serious lack of dedication from a lot of people. Every day I'm telling an LAT to not do this and that, don't abuse this power, yada yada. People leaving left and right because of one thing or another. At this point I'm sure nobody cares. :\

jake13jake
12-02-2005, 06:48 AM
Classic just needs to keep being developed rather than the few things it has right now.
Seriously, if anyone wants to help, go right ahead, Apps to [email protected] The app should contain account:nick, and the presentation of a piece of work in the field(s) you would like to apply for. GrowlZ, Storm, Ibo, and I are the only ones that can script right now, and GrowlZ and Ibo are busier with other things, so yea, apply already!

syltburk
12-02-2005, 10:52 PM
Thanks, Captain Obvious. :rolleyes:

We just have a serious lack of dedication from a lot of people. Every day I'm telling an LAT to not do this and that, don't abuse this power, yada yada. People leaving left and right because of one thing or another. At this point I'm sure nobody cares. :\
straight up *thumsup*

jake13jake
12-03-2005, 01:59 AM
straight up *thumsup*
That's why we fired you and Luda and Doahh and Kevin and ...

Lyndzey
12-03-2005, 03:05 AM
Why are people complaining about the one guy who actually does something?

Minoc
12-03-2005, 10:42 AM
Why are people complaining about the one guy who actually does something?
Because we believe he'd doing the wrong thing. :(

syltburk
12-03-2005, 12:00 PM
That's why we fired you and Luda and Doahh and Kevin and ...
Man you have already stated the fact that you fired me, when are you going to understand sarcasm, stop making classic to a ****ty server :frown:

jake13jake
12-04-2005, 07:17 AM
Man you have already stated the fact that you fired me, when are you going to understand sarcasm, stop making classic to a ****ty server :frown:
That's where constructive suggestions help.

syltburk
12-04-2005, 11:46 AM
That's where constructive suggestions help.
Bring back the old overworld

jake13jake
12-05-2005, 01:46 AM
Bring back the old overworld
You call that constructive? I converted like half of the old overworld and now it's gone and there's nothing to do about it.

James205
12-05-2005, 04:23 AM
You call that constructive? I converted like half of the old overworld and now it's gone and there's nothing to do about it.

What is there to convert? Just bring back the OLD OVERWORLD LEVELS not the old scripts. Really what I thought what was going on was converting all the scripts so they will work with current times and no conflictions. Master Storm showed me ages ago the improvements that I thought were beneficial and I heard all the converting and so on but we are still missing a big part of classic...

The old levels.
Call me stupid but when I started on classic, the first thing I got used to was the simple levels and always finding something (a hole in the tree, kraken's great quest levels). There were also stupid things like the football field which I miss and also the big rainbow house (Might of been made by Pachuka so it was removed). The simple quests were also great, like the house you walk in and just simply get a heart or the tree maze quest and the one quest where you walk in the middle of the bushes and go to a level filled with baddies. All of that is what classic is and I am just not understanding why we feel we need to change that.

For some reason these days when people think of "improving" a playerworld they need to add a bunch of details and pointless houses so they start changing things they don't need to. Each individual house was made by someone in the past so even the pointless houses have value to them.

Look at big city, a giant big turd of nothing but people still continued to go to it. I have all the levels from the past on my old computer so if you don't have them I can supply you with them, but of course the NPCs which most likely wont work are in them... but I'm sure you guys have the old levels.

This was my interpetation of "renewing" classic again...
- Get rid of Hera's and all that stuff
- Convert all old npcs (toweapon scripts) to work perfectly with new graal script.
- Bring back all old levels
- Get all quests working (for god sake my older brothers fire cave was removed ages ago and it was one of the first quests).

Don't concentrate messing with the levels and making them look like every other boring playerworld. The levels are done, the hard stuff still needs to be done.

Lyndzey
12-05-2005, 02:07 PM
It's not Massokre's decision to bring back the old levels.

I have asked Stefan about bringing back the old levels, but he instantly declined.

maximus_asinus
12-05-2005, 03:13 PM
Boring Rant.
You seem to be forgetting what Massokre already stated. They had a great deal of the old levels converted, but a decision came from higher up to basically start from scratch. They kept a few of the original levels, and started to rebuild. Granted, I don't agree with some of the levels they decided to replace, but I am willing to wait and see if they decide to bring them back. Again, Massokre already stated that he is trying to bring back some of the old levels, and thats all I ever hoped for.

I'm not really sure what you're upset about anyway, you don't ever step foot on the server anymore (don't blame this on the fact the server has changed, you were rarely on it before that). You're just droning about, complaining because you lost that feeling of nostalgia, but bringing back those old levels won't bring that back.

Minoc
12-05-2005, 05:13 PM
I have asked Stefan about bringing back the old levels, but he instantly declined.
What about a seperate playerworld with the old (~v1.3) levels?

James205
12-06-2005, 02:49 AM
You seem to be forgetting what Massokre already stated. They had a great deal of the old levels converted, but a decision came from higher up to basically start from scratch.
My "boring rant" was a suggestion and my opinion. Stefan browses these forums and MAYBE he might see some of them?

They kept a few of the original levels, and started to rebuild. Granted, I don't agree with some of the levels they decided to replace, but I am willing to wait and see if they decide to bring them back. Again, Massokre already stated that he is trying to bring back some of the old levels, and thats all I ever hoped for.
I also heard he wanted to randomly change things that didn't need to be changed and I gave my opinion of DON'T DO IT. He doesn't HAVE to listen to me ya know.

I'm not really sure what you're upset about anyway, you don't ever step foot on the server anymore (don't blame this on the fact the server has changed, you were rarely on it before that). You're just droning about, complaining because you lost that feeling of nostalgia, but bringing back those old levels won't bring that back.

Seriously, you pulled all of that out of your ass.

I DON'T STEP ON FOOT OF A SERVER THAT IS BORING TO ME, HOW DOES THAT NOT MAKE SENSE?

YES I WAS ALWAYS ON WHEN I STARTED GRAAL TILL IT DIED, EVEN WHEN OTHER SERVERS CAME OUT. EVEN WHEN I WAS MANAGER OF SL AND GLOBAL ACCOUNT ADMIN I STILL GOT ON CLASSIC.

IF CLASSIC CAME BACK I WOULD PLAY IT AGAIN, IT'S WHAT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN WAITING FOR.

I want to know your source for this information... oh wait you made it up.

syltburk
12-06-2005, 03:33 PM
"nostalgia" bull****, I didn't play classic because I thought it would be nostalgia now... I played it because it was great, if you wanna create something new, create an mew server..

jake13jake
12-07-2005, 04:45 AM
James, every level that I'm adding is going to have a purpose to it, as opposed to all other player worlds: both the new levels AND the levels that I bring back from Graal's past, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll be using Stefan's house to hold the Fishing Rod. Miser is going to be the chair of Swamptown. To stress that, I made a golden forest next to his house, which will hold the key to Kull's Cave (on the other side of town), which will take you to Kull's Castle. I'm going to split Babord in half pretty much and salvage what I can of it. It's functionality probably won't be accessible until much later. I'm giving the Gnome Caves a map because I'm not much a fan of one dimensional quests. Yea, I won't be using any one dimensional quests. Unfortunately I can't use Kull's interior because the layout isn't functional under current scripting constraints. I hope maximus uploads his levels. I'll change the layout of a level if I think it could be more functional. I'll probably change Sardon's the least. Although, I'll probably gmap the floors.

That's the fault with almost every other server, so little content for a lot of levels content. I'd prefer a 3x3 overworld where every level had a purpose to a 64x64 overworld where 90% of the levels were just there to be shown and look pretty. I'm quite picky on level layouts. I'm having myself draw a map for every new dungeon I assign now.

jacob_bald6225
12-07-2005, 04:59 AM
James, every level that I'm adding is going to have a purpose to it, as opposed to all other player worlds:
I hope you don't mean there are going to be no "pontless" player houses.

James205
12-07-2005, 06:36 AM
James, every level that I'm adding is going to have a purpose to it, as opposed to all other player worlds: both the new levels AND the levels that I bring back from Graal's past, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll be using Stefan's house to hold the Fishing Rod. Miser is going to be the chair of Swamptown. To stress that, I made a golden forest next to his house, which will hold the key to Kull's Cave (on the other side of town), which will take you to Kull's Castle. I'm going to split Babord in half pretty much and salvage what I can of it. It's functionality probably won't be accessible until much later. I'm giving the Gnome Caves a map because I'm not much a fan of one dimensional quests. Yea, I won't be using any one dimensional quests. Unfortunately I can't use Kull's interior because the layout isn't functional under current scripting constraints. I hope maximus uploads his levels. I'll change the layout of a level if I think it could be more functional. I'll probably change Sardon's the least. Although, I'll probably gmap the floors.

That's the fault with almost every other server, so little content for a lot of levels content. I'd prefer a 3x3 overworld where every level had a purpose to a 64x64 overworld where 90% of the levels were just there to be shown and look pretty. I'm quite picky on level layouts. I'm having myself draw a map for every new dungeon I assign now.

Only if you could understand things. :\

maximus_asinus
12-08-2005, 02:13 AM
I decided to host my own 'event' using two accounts.
I massed about sending bombs to break the record of amount held by regular player. I was able to amass one hundred thousand bombs, in little over an hour. It was great fun. As a prize, I gave away my tickets. 18 went to the giver of the 100 000th bomb, and 5 as a courtesy gift for the 99 999th bomb. Blizzaro and Jub won respectively. It is possible to have fun events without the GCs, and this was an example.

Screenshot of my amount as proof:

jake13jake
12-08-2005, 02:58 AM
Only if you could understand things. :\
Oh, like how I removed the empty left side of stefan's house? Looking at old scripts, that used to host a quest. The quest is gone now so that side of the house was utterly pointless.

Rufus
12-08-2005, 01:14 PM
What is going to happen to that Lycia cow shrine?

syltburk
12-08-2005, 02:32 PM
Oh, like how I removed the empty left side of stefan's house? Looking at old scripts, that used to host a quest. The quest is gone now so that side of the house was utterly pointless.

:frown: isnt zols pointless since there are no quest there anymore?

Nightmareangel
12-08-2005, 08:21 PM
:frown: isnt zols pointless since there are no quest there anymore?

Technically there's one quest there. The warp ring quest! It's epic!

jake13jake
12-09-2005, 05:58 AM
:frown: isnt zols pointless since there are no quest there anymore?
I didn't add Zol's :P. But I still would have kept Zol's.
Like Night said: The epic warpring quest.
It will be similar to the epic fishing rod quest in Stefan's house.

Graal City is like the forest in Zelda 64. It's a friendly area where you don't have to worry about questing. Once you're done questing in other areas on the mainland, they will become friendly as well. Although I defiinitely wouldn't have had Scavengers, and I would have wanted to redo Dozer's house if I were to have redone it. I would want to put a modified version of the old Northern Limits in place of Supernicks', and so on. However, those were Storm's decisions and not mine. I'm thinking about remaking the MoD haunted house quest. I'd just need to find some way of having it fit, rather than it being so random.

DarkCloud_PK
12-09-2005, 12:16 PM
Haha, all this new stuff you're supposedly adding sounds fantastic on paper, too bad you're too retarded to see the reality of things. Anyone can say they're going to add a bunch of crap, but all I've seen you do in the past few months that you've been admin of LAT is add some silly tiny little miniquest that you get a lamp for, and add a bunch of empty levels to the overworld 2 months ago that
noone can access anyway.

Other than that, all I see you do is preach about the 100,000 different projects you have underway, run around the overworld like an idiot, and play with whatever toys you may be messing around with at the time. None of these are content, the only content I've seen is that beer quest from you. You have potential to pull it around as an admin, but you need to listen and stop starting project after project and spreading yourself as thin as humanly possible. I don't know what LAT Admin school you came from, but successful ones don't focus on all these projects at once, but instead focus on one or two at a time and actually get them done and added into the world for players to access. You are at an advantage with classic, it is supposed to be a simplistic server, which is easy to produce for, but simple isn't good enough for you apparently, sure complex things are very nice to have, but once you balance simplicity and complexity, you'll be better off. You also have no method of taking in player opinon, granted a lot of them are idiots, but if you don't add something the majority wants or add something everyone hates, people will eventually leave.

I can honestly say without the GC team, classic would be completely boned at the moment, they have added more enjoyable content to the server through events and events levels in a month than the LAT team has done since the NPC server was added. Past events, what do you really have to do besides the generic PKing and chatting which you can do anywhere? Nothing, there is nothing else to do on the server, there hasn't been for over a year, and the way things continue, I see that continuing down the same path. Don't you find GC adding in a vast amount more content than the LAT team just a tad retarded?

I'm not even going to go into the nostalgia and keeping Classic "classic" issue, you already screwed the pooch on that aspect.

syltburk
12-09-2005, 06:31 PM
I didn't add Zol's :P. But I still would have kept Zol's.
Like Night said: The epic warpring quest.
It will be similar to the epic fishing rod quest in Stefan's house.

Graal City is like the forest in Zelda 64. It's a friendly area where you don't have to worry about questing. Once you're done questing in other areas on the mainland, they will become friendly as well. Although I defiinitely wouldn't have had Scavengers, and I would have wanted to redo Dozer's house if I were to have redone it. I would want to put a modified version of the old Northern Limits in place of Supernicks', and so on. However, those were Storm's decisions and not mine. I'm thinking about remaking the MoD haunted house quest. I'd just need to find some way of having it fit, rather than it being so random.
you're just an idiot, most of the classic players would disagree with you, but you fail to see it. Too much of an idiot

DarkCloud_PK
12-09-2005, 08:26 PM
Shut up, this is Massokre's and Storm's playerworld now, not Classic.

jake13jake
12-10-2005, 12:26 AM
I can say that I waited too long in vain for Exodus to come back with the castle he had supposedly completed. I've assigned at least 5 LATs to the Gnome Caves (2nd Quest), and none of them have done a single level. Floydian came up with a decent gnome house idea and then he disappeared. Hopefully Maximus will get it done. I know he got the Kull's cave system done.

What's left with the castle? Well, I had finished the class scripting for it back in September-October. Exodus had done some of the sewers part, I took that and made it more implementable, Racil helped with some levels. I'm hoping I can catch him online so he can make the rest of the outlines. Pretty much now just the castle's basement and King's chamber. Yet before you can do the castle quest, I have to convince Storm to upgrade his warp ring system, because he has some random idea of how the quest should be initialized.

Once we get past initial run of mainland quests, things will go a lot smoother for a little while. And then all of a sudden, kabaam, more mainland quests. It will be a nightmare.

Minoc
12-10-2005, 12:29 AM
Shut up, this is Massokre's and Storm's playerworld now, not Classic.
I agree, Classic is dead.
The server should be renamed.

Luda
12-10-2005, 03:28 AM
Long live Luda Land!

StrykerTFFD
12-10-2005, 03:31 AM
Shut up, this is Massokre's and Storm's playerworld now, not Classic.

As much as I dislike Dark Cloud, I have to agree with this.

DarkCloud_PK
12-10-2005, 07:28 AM
I can say that I waited too long in vain for Exodus to come back with the castle he had supposedly completed. I've assigned at least 5 LATs to the Gnome Caves (2nd Quest), and none of them have done a single level. Floydian came up with a decent gnome house idea and then he disappeared. Hopefully Maximus will get it done. I know he got the Kull's cave system done.

What's left with the castle? Well, I had finished the class scripting for it back in September-October. Exodus had done some of the sewers part, I took that and made it more implementable, Racil helped with some levels. I'm hoping I can catch him online so he can make the rest of the outlines. Pretty much now just the castle's basement and King's chamber. Yet before you can do the castle quest, I have to convince Storm to upgrade his warp ring system, because he has some random idea of how the quest should be initialized.

Once we get past initial run of mainland quests, things will go a lot smoother for a little while. And then all of a sudden, kabaam, more mainland quests. It will be a nightmare.

Well then, as LAT Admin and a developer, maybe you should get rid of those LATs. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need a team of 8-9 LATs, you can produce well with 2-3 people, that combined have somewhat decent tiling ability, decent scripting ability, and somewhat decent image editing. There was never that big of an active LAT team, a majority of stuff while I was Admin was made by one or two tilers and Tyhm, the filler made by the players. You don't need extremely skilled tilers here.

This is classic, the style is supposed to be somewhat simple, it doesn't matter what
your preference may be. It doesn't matter that you don't like useless levels that you can't use for quests. Part of the big picture of Classic is that it was made by the players, sure the playerhouses didn't attribute much as far as purpose or quests go, but it was filler, it was content, it gave something newbies to explore. What do you have for newbies to explore now, after 1+ years of having the NPC server? Close to nothing, and a lot of empty houses with no links to go with it.

You have lost the fact that this is not a playerworld, but the Classic server, the what used to be the orginal server. You treat it as a playerworld though, both you and Storm. If this was a playerworld, it would have been shut down a long time ago, because it is by far the biggest joke of a playerworld anyone has seen. I think someone posted in the last classic needs reform thread, comparing Classic as it was to the requirements for a playerworld to go up, and it met what, a fourth of them? Its been pretty much stagnant since then, so I doubt we meet a 1/3 of them yet still.

The Manager is by far one of the worst I've seen, in the beginning, yes, Storm did a few things, like the now still very rough HD system and moment system, the bombs, bushes, etc. What does he do now, all I hear from you is how he does close to nothing for the server, and yes, I'd have to agree, when I was with GC, it was hard as hell to get him to approve anything major, all I got was a "hmm", pretty nice PR from the managerm eh? I had to go through Ibonic to get things done, which I really shouldn't have had to do.

The FAQ team, well, does it even exist anymore? Does it even have a use? You have one heart quest on the server now, one, which is a goddamn warp maze that looks like some 10 year old did in 20 minutes, and a small mini quest which while higher in quality by leaps and bounds(which still doesn't say much, that heart quest is downright awful), is short and yields close to no reward(yay a lamp and a graal). The admin of FAQ is
awful. He oversteps his bounds with FAQ regularly, and doesn't even do his own job. As the former admin of the division, the state the division is in now is an embarassment. Thermo doesn't push any sort of hiring, even though his team is nonexistant, and he does his own FAQ time by idling on tag at 5AM when noone is on, and got pissed when I questioned him on it.

The GP team is fine, as much as I like to mess with Stryker, he's a decent admin, doesn't step over his position like some of the former admins into other divisions(hello Chronos). While the GP team coverage is light, thats exactly where it needs to be. There is barely a need for the team in the first place.
There are no script kiddies anymore, no trainers around classic, the only thing I see the GP team able to actually enforce is profanity. The only thing I have a problem with is some of the questionable uses of the gag tool(toy).

GC team? As strong as it ever was. If you compare Classic to a dying patient in a hospital, GC would be the respirator keeping it alive. Without the constant events GC puts out, there would be a lot fewer players than there are now, there is no content or anything else to do on the server besides PK or chat otherwise.

LAT, well I pointed out most of it before, but it needs to pull off what Massokre wants, and turn into actual content, somewhat dedicated to Classic and not a playerworld, and also what the general consenus of players want, open up a goddamn voting booth, accept playerhouses to fill up some of the empty houses all over the place, and focus on producing one piece of content at a time instead of everything, don't pass the buck off on an inactive team, dump the inactive idiots and put some more pressure on yourself, you have very decent scripting abilities, and I'd imagine you could tile to some degree, thats all you need besides a graphics guy every once and awhile. Unlike most developers who you barely see online besides to test content because they are actually producing content, Massokre, you are pretty much the opposite.

Sometimes I wish Tyhm would return, and at least set things up for the better, but I doubt that would happen.

jacob_bald6225
12-10-2005, 08:02 AM
Classic Tab Requirements
How to apply to become public:
Any news about how to apply will be placed in the main playerworld forum section. Read that information first, do not just e-mail us.


Levels:
-A good amount of outside levels (Lowest around 50)
-If it’s a small leveled overworld there shouldn’t be any empty houses/caves etc.
-Levels should be linked correctly and to a good standard
-No level should trap a player; there should always be a way out (Exception to jails)
-Levels should look good and be of a reasonable standard of detail and quality

Quests:
-Some way to develop the character such as quests
-Player should have fun (Not just kill everything, or carry a pot/bush)
-Each quest should be some what different


Events/Fun:
-Some way to amuse the players:
*Events
*Auctions
*Collectable Items
*Limited Items

Gameplay:

-Lots to do
-Not all over in the first 5mins
-Updates for players frequently

Some original ideas:
-Something new to please the players

Jobs:
-Some way to make/get the currency (e.g: Jobs)
-Give the player a choice in which way to make money
-Make it fun (Not all D-Bashing)

Updates:
-Updates for the server need to be ready upon release (if small)

User Friendly:
-Players starting your playerworld should know where to go and what to do straight away, and shouldn’t have to walk around for a long period of time before finding some sort of place with content.
-All Jobs/Events/Weapons etc should be well documented (e.g: Signs) so that the user knows how to use it. If it’s the basic controls, still have something stating them.(I just recently learned how perma clothes works...)

Staff:

-Staff should be able to answer the player comments or PMs.(FAQs never on)
-Staff should not be abusive or violent towards and Graal player.
-Some staff should monitor the mass messages and punish those who go against the Graal user agreement.
-All staff should be trained in their area, and know how to do their job (e.g: GPs)
-Staff do not need staff weapons therefore all staff do not need some. If you do make these they should be secure to work with staff-tags and disable sword etc.. so the weapon can not be abused.

When I posted this on July 16th I found we met 38%... re-evaluating now 5 months later I got 34%

Tyhm
12-10-2005, 02:44 PM
Someone invoked my name.
*glance*
So the new team's using the wrong version of everything; "Supernicks shouldn't be there, but neither should NL, it should be Onnett town, bring back the old castle I remember" - I went over this, it was Graal1999. Two versions, one where nothing ever changed and one where everything always changed, and nobody liked either. It's not going to be the exact version you want, deal with it.

It is the humble opinion of this emeritus administrator that if you're going to renovate something, you should try to renovate it exactly so it has the minimum impact. It is also the experience of this rampant renovator that it's always more fun to take a wrecking ball to an old dead quest and remake it from scratch, not to mention less work. But what do I know? I tried to introduce Heras so we could have more than 17 "Fullheart Quests!1!!1!1", and we all saw how well that went.

I'd say for major sweeping changes hold a poll, but it won't change anything. You'll get 13 votes for Supernicks, 12 votes for NL, then someone'll call foul. Eventually you'll wind up with the world most enjoyed by the largest minority or, more to the point, bits and pieces that nobody agrees on, all stapled together haphazardly.

It's a thankless job, people will be after your neck, and you'll be lucky to see a profit when all's said and done. Enjoy it best you can, try and leave it a little better than you found it. I have neither the time to manage nor fix this poor forsaken server, whatever your various opinions of its proper name - this is not a new argument, it's been going on since the mines were initially retiled, probably a ways before that.

I like the idea of the town being peaceful, but also of the peaceful town being the quest hub. That was the point of the castle, in any eventuality, and all the scripting the King had. I was going to name him Hassenpheffer, you know, but Ragnarok insisted on Tristam. Probably for the best - Hassenpheffer's a horrid name - but Tristam's a little shady too. That would be a good NPC spot to auction off, as I did on the old trivia contests on the Level Updates page, back when we had one and people could track my progress.

Yes, I'm sure it still doesn't meet your approval for a standard issue playerworld. If it still hasn't when they release v4, then congratulations, Classic will officially have outlived its usefulness and you can dance on its grave until you start missing it. Then you'll release your version, someone else will release their version, and nothing will get done. Same as it ever was.

Don't much care for reports of how small the world is now. I suppose that'll happen when you have to start from scratch...wouldn't have had that problem if the G2K1 people let us borrow their system for a starting point. Then again, wouldn't have been a problem if the PW Control Panel had basic scripts for converting movement, baddies, etc. to serverside in the least invasive way possible, but that never happened either. So everyone makes their own homebrew movement and wastes a few hundred hours perfecting it instead of working together. Brave new world.

Oh well, do try to have fun.

jake13jake
12-10-2005, 04:16 PM
Yea, Tyhm, you almost sum it up.

Yes, I'm sure it still doesn't meet your approval for a standard issue playerworld. If it still hasn't when they release v4, then congratulations, Classic will officially have outlived its usefulness and you can dance on its grave until you start missing it. Then you'll release your version, someone else will release their version, and nothing will get done. Same as it ever was.

I've put too much time and effort into this server to let that happen. Make a basic movement system, a few weapons, a few half-done quests, a few baddies, while Storm has hardly been doddling on his own overcomplicated movement system since the NPC Server. I think that Stefan should be Manager of Classic and devote a little bit of time to it.

syltburk
12-10-2005, 06:40 PM
Yea, Tyhm, you almost sum it up.

I've put too much time and effort into this server to let that happen. Make a basic movement system, a few weapons, a few half-done quests, a few baddies, while Storm has hardly been doddling on his own overcomplicated movement system since the NPC Server. I think that Stefan should be Manager of Classic and devote a little bit of time to it.
You crossed the line, I rather see Storm still being manager then having you as LAT Admin, storms managing everything. He understands what classic is about, you crossed the line.

Someone else 4 lat admin.

James205
12-10-2005, 07:33 PM
Someone invoked my name.
*glance*
I brought up your name, because it's a great example of what's going on. Let me explain...

I remember when you started adding a lot of great things to classic, in some ways it made it much better. You reshaped the whole island to make sense, you added somewhat of a storyline, added great weapons, tons of complicated things that were really good quality.

After a while I started noticing something different about classic that it started to feel like a completely different playerworld and leave it's old meaning. I also felt that you should of made your own playerworld because with your skills you could of made something amazing and people would appreciate it, but since it was classic you took in a lot of crap from people... and it wasn't really your fault.

You can make the highest quality of content on classic (example: Tyhm's amazing scripting/managing), you can update it and redo everything but it has already been proven that it doesn't work because that's not what classic is. I agree with most of DC said (except a good amount of the stuff he said about master storm) and what Tyhm said.

In reality all of us are waiting for the real version of classic to come back out, not a watered down version. Trying to improve everything and change things based off your opinion will NOT work, so start giving the players what they want again.

start listening...

Tyhm
12-11-2005, 01:19 AM
I'll applaud you if you ever find out what the players want, as it's unlikely two will ever agree completely on all points. Sure, you can get a majority that want Voluran's back the way it was, but you can't get that same majority to decide which version of Destiny should exist, and they'll all want the gold sword but that doesn't mean they should have it.

DarkCloud_PK
12-11-2005, 01:43 AM
I think you misinterpreted what I said, James.
In all honesty, I don't really want the pre 1.39 classic back, the levels did not make what was fun about Graal then, sure they helped, but it was the community that made Graal fun, for almost everyone, and that community isn't coming back, a majority have long long moved on. Proof of this was the Graal2000 projects, level for level they were the old graal, both failed miserably. Everyone has a different idea for the "perfect" Classic, quite frankly, there is none.

I do want the server to at least somewhat resemble classic, and fit the by the players for the players theme of Classic, with a majority of the key elements of Classic intact. Not a playerworld in which there is no player input, no player houses, and just a server driven on what Storm and Massokre want to do. I want the landscape to somewhat resemble what Classic used to look like, with the key areas and towns somewhat intact. Keep Classic to some degree "Classic". I'm not going to have a complete fit though if that isn't what happens however.

For the most part, I would like some form of content, something to do, something new to explore. There has been next to nothing added, that has been accessible, for over a year to the server(All those empty levels that came with the small overworld expansion a few months ago are still not even accessible. The LAT continue to attempt to focus their attention on every single project at once, instead of concentrating on one or two things and releasing them one at a time, and handing projects to inactive LATs instead of Massokre steping up to the plate and getting stuff done. My main gripe is content, in any players eyes, the LAT do close to nothing for the server except run around on tag on buildings and watch events. I don't care what you say is in the works, Massokre. Frankly, the LAT have been talking about what they're going to be doing for months upon months, talk is cheap, where are the results?

jake13jake
12-11-2005, 06:29 AM
You crossed the line, I rather see Storm still being manager then having you as LAT Admin, storms managing everything. He understands what classic is about, you crossed the line.

Someone else 4 lat admin.
Yea, but if Stefan came into manage, I think it would be Storm 4 LAT Admin and me for Asst. LAT Admin.

You shouldn't really make assumptions on the unspoken :P.

syltburk
12-11-2005, 12:33 PM
Yea, but if Stefan came into manage, I think it would be Storm 4 LAT Admin and me for Asst. LAT Admin.

You shouldn't really make assumptions on the unspoken :P.
Mate, if stefan would be manager Storm would be manager because stefans managing a whole game, :( so...


Massokre - Out

Someone else - in :cool:

DarkCloud_PK
12-11-2005, 02:39 PM
Any suggestions for Stefan to manage Classic are way off base.
It will never happen again, ever.

Polo
12-11-2005, 03:39 PM
The main thing that made Classic 'so' is the community, and regardless of the levels we have, without that community we will never have that same feeling. Now, of course I want to keep a certain ammount of Classic just so, tha main central city area, gonna maybe readd modtown, that sort of thing, but at the end of the day, old players will always leave, either out growing Graal, or following friends to other servers. Before we switched to NPC Server and started rebuilding from scratch, we were still losing those players. I can revert back to those levels, given a reasonable time to convert them all etc., but I can see no reason why that loss of players would not simply continue.

For me, it's more important to try and bring in new players, and build the community of the future.

Tyhm
12-11-2005, 09:51 PM
It'd be nice to have the community back, but rebuilding Classic's a lot like rebuilding Woodstock - you need unique social pressures for it to develop. Things like, loathe though I am to yield shockedfrog's point, it has to be the only Graal server, one of very few free online games, with a corrupt and absent staff to give players the sense that they could do a better job of things, horridly attached levels uploaded on the basis of who's the admin's friend, and most importantly, the final word has to be the guy we all trust to do what's best for his baby, Stefan. Since we can't get pretty much any of these points and are unwilling to create the rest, yeah, I'm afraid we're stuck with trying to make it newbie friendly enough to offer to Unixmad as The Newbie Server. That'd bring back community, get everyone started there learning the controls before they run off to Zone or whatnot.

Yen
12-11-2005, 09:57 PM
Zzz.. Too much reading.

Just wondering.. What's wrong with Classic and how did it happen?
I haven't played in 3-4 years, since a certain GP banned me for quitting LAT. I had gone through quests with staff boots to find out how they were supposed to function, so I knew they were working properly when I rescripted them. So my flags didn't correspond to my stats. x-x'

nikomi946
12-11-2005, 10:00 PM
A series of events happened to classic over the past several years. If you want details it would take a few pages to explain.

jake13jake
12-12-2005, 10:45 PM
Just so you know, I started in September as LAT Admin, not January. I recently got permission from Storm to rescript the warp ring, so once I do that I will be able to put up the Castle's (first) quest.

The lantern isn't pointless, although I might want to rescript the corresponding class. I just forgot to ask Master Storm if he could add one of my functions to the public functions that would make it easier to do a lot of things. You'll see use of the lantern once in the castle. Gnome Caves, I want to make use of it 2-3 times. I'll probably use it in the boss room.

But, right now I'm in the middle of final exams, and my Macroeconomics one is about to start, so I must leave you. for the time being.

Inspiration
12-13-2005, 06:52 PM
It's really funny just how long this has been going on for, and yet nothing is done about it.


There IS a way to keep most of the people on classic happy. None of you are going to find it like this, though.

Tyhm
12-14-2005, 02:55 AM
There IS a way to keep most of the people on classic happy. None of you are going to find it like this, though.

You seem rather certain of that. Do you intend to put your money where your mouth is, or do you just run it because you're afraid it'll burst in this winter weather?

Yen
12-14-2005, 03:53 AM
From asking around, I've surmised that the main reason behind Classic's decline is the lack of quest content.
There's not much that could have been done about that.. The server had so many levels, it'd take an extremely long time for a group of dedicated scripters to convert or rescript everything.

Oyah, I love Tyhm. <3

Mark Sir Link
12-14-2005, 04:08 AM
That's why we fired you and Luda and Doahh and Kevin and ...
LOLOL I was fired? I remember having to plead with you guys to remove me from the staff roster!


Edit:

I commend Stryker on his brilliance.

StrykerTFFD
12-14-2005, 04:11 AM
Kevin4partiallyblindseizuremanagerwithgodmode

maximus_asinus
12-14-2005, 05:56 AM
LOLOL I was fired? I remember having to plead with you guys to remove me from the staff roster!


Edit:

I commend Stryker on his brilliance.
Speaking of account sharing, I can swear another person uses this account on Classic. I just can't put my finger on who.

jake13jake
12-14-2005, 12:02 PM
Did somebody mention something about this level?

Mark Sir Link
12-15-2005, 01:28 AM
Speaking of account sharing, I can swear another person uses this account on Classic. I just can't put my finger on who.

a.) Who said anything about account sharing
and
b.) why accuse me in a shaky fashion that's completly unfounded?

jake13jake
12-15-2005, 01:51 AM
a.) Who said anything about account sharing
and
b.) why accuse me in a shaky fashion that's completly unfounded?
That's right fake seizure king!!!! THIS THREAD IS FOR BASHING ME!!!! NOT KEVIN!!!!!! DON'T TAKE MY GLORY AWAY!!!!

Tyhm
12-15-2005, 02:47 AM
Did somebody mention something about this level?

It's beautiful! It predates me! It...was removed for a reason!

jake13jake
12-15-2005, 03:15 AM
Yea, this thread motivated me to explore Java Graal, which led me to find the strangest places, and also this one guys playerhouse had a URL to a website that had the original Zelda Online client, the original Tile Editor, all the original source code, the New World levels, and the first Graal 3D. I also found that Zorbi Castle that you and Chimp had contemplated using in Old Graal. I also found a graphic that said "Spider was here! <whoever made the site> is 1337!"

Unfortunately I couldn't find any PACHUKA NPCs. Tyhm, do you know if the current head# for the head that PACHUKA had was head22.png or head4.png? Old Graal has head22.png, and the level under the brdge in CC has head4.png. I decided to make a paigan statue/memorial to him in the first quest as the boss. It wouldn't really feel like Classic without a PACHUKA joke.

Inspiration
12-15-2005, 05:19 AM
You seem rather certain of that. Do you intend to put your money where your mouth is, or do you just run it because you're afraid it'll burst in this winter weather?


Well obviously the chance for me to "put my money where my mouth is" is not currently existent, but yes, I am fairly sure I could make THE MAJORITY of the players of classic happy.


I did it with N-Pulse when I managed there. Mostly, I understand what the average player likes, wants, and enjoys. Being that I played classic for over 2000 hours from 99 to now, I have a fairly good idea of how to put everything together in a package that most players would enjoy.

Of course you can think I'm just talking out of my rear, and I'm sure that you would hold yourself as more of an expert on the situation, having tried it yourself, but hey, every time I talk to someone that plays/played classic about my ideas, they seem to agree that I have a fairly good idea of how the server should be set up.


Maybe I couldnt do a better job, but I'd be damned suprised if that was the case.

StrykerTFFD
12-15-2005, 05:31 AM
stuff


No.

iownu
12-15-2005, 05:51 AM
No.

"No" is not really a good responce to anything written there.

Care to elaborate?

jake13jake
12-15-2005, 08:21 AM
Inspiration, if you want to come join LAT and help, with a good app I'd love to have you.
The GC Team seems to really enjoy my castle quest from testing. I'm trying to get all of the rooms linked, lost where I put the throne room and dining hall though :(. Then comes getting the boss done, rescripting the warp ring, fixing the weak statue class, and making it ridiculously hard to sneak into the throne room without defeating the boss. Then make sure the guards handle the individual clients correctly.


If anyone has some advise, why isn't strcontains(#s(clientr.quest_dungeon_statues),#s(t his.statueID)) returning true as

clientr.quest_dungeon_statues=ab
this.statueID=a
??
I can do it in gs2, clientr.quest_dungeon_statues.pos(this.statueID) != -1.
However, the pos string attribute function isn't in old gscript.

I just want v4 to be released so I stop having gscript1 nightmares :'(.

Tyhm
12-15-2005, 11:36 AM
Really oughtn't. He was rather...succinct in his request that his own likeness not be used anymore.

Deophite18
12-16-2005, 12:44 AM
Well obviously the chance for me to "put my money where my mouth is" is not currently existent, but yes, I am fairly sure I could make THE MAJORITY of the players of classic happy.


I did it with N-Pulse when I managed there. Mostly, I understand what the average player likes, wants, and enjoys. Being that I played classic for over 2000 hours from 99 to now, I have a fairly good idea of how to put everything together in a package that most players would enjoy.

Of course you can think I'm just talking out of my rear, and I'm sure that you would hold yourself as more of an expert on the situation, having tried it yourself, but hey, every time I talk to someone that plays/played classic about my ideas, they seem to agree that I have a fairly good idea of how the server should be set up.


Maybe I couldnt do a better job, but I'd be damned suprised if that was the case.


I agree with Inspiration. Pleasing the majority of classic players wouldnt be all that difficult. I havent seen a Admin on Classic since back when it was the only server who actually listened to the players instead of doing there own thing. That is the key but no one ever follows it. For starters get rid of this ridiculous new hit detection and quit turning the server into some anti lamer playground. Why dont you try asking players if they like the new 0 hit detection instead of just ASSUMING it would go over well with them. Because the MAJORITY would say otherwise. But the admins wouldnt know that because like i said they do whatever they want. Why must this single server be different from ALL the rest. It shouldnt and it takes away from gameplay. Another thing is the Admin needs to be and remain neutral and treat all staff equally. Also they need to know when to be sturn so that things get done when they are supposed to. The GC is the best thing on clasisc mainly because Nightmareangel runs the show. He keeps all the GC's active and there are always events going on. The last person i ever Recall Massing and asking what the players would like was Com13. And that involved races. He actually removed the races from the server because the players didnt want them. That is the kind of leadership we need. An admin who talks to people and accepts feedback and suggestions.

Lance
12-16-2005, 01:10 AM
I can do it in gs2, clientr.quest_dungeon_statues.pos(this.statueID) != -1.
However, the pos string attribute function isn't in old gscript.

I just want v4 to be released so I stop having gscript1 nightmares :'(.

indexof()

Luda
12-16-2005, 05:46 AM
I agree with Inspiration.

METOO :cool:

jake13jake
12-16-2005, 06:03 AM
Really oughtn't. He was rather...succinct in his request that his own likeness not be used anymore.
lol... I can respect that. But why in the world did you use him?

Inspiration
12-16-2005, 06:15 AM
Classic shouldnt be about any manager or admins "Vision" of classic.

Classic should be just that. Classic. It's not a player world, nor should it be treated like one.



It's really quite simple.

Restore all old levels. Keep it around 1.38, possibly a few versions later. That was the point where the server functioned best level wise.

Rescript everything, keep functionality the same, improve quality. Update supernicks with some new more functional scripting to allow better sparring.

Focus on events and new areas.

Why will this work?

Simple!

A) People are happy that the old levels are back. They will also be happy that new areas to explore are now being added.

B) What do people do on a normal player world? Spar, PK, Chat, Events. Supernicks, Level 14/13, and we have a huge event house. Looks good to me.

C) Kill the Hera system, bring back old heart quests. Not only will it give the server a more classic feel, it will add to the playability. Hera's just were too time consuming. No one wants to quest for 10 hours just to be able to spar and PK normally.



What people want when they log on classic is a playable server that looks and feels fairly the same as it did years ago, along with added new content to keep them entertained.

Instead you all focus on remaking, reorganizing, rethinking, ect.

If you want your own player world with your own ideas, go make one. Leave classic as classic.

Luda
12-16-2005, 06:52 AM
One time to get the wedding chapels up just below the main bridge I had to convert the bushes etc and send in the levels for storm to upload, I was supposed to do the more major scripting but I cannot script at all so storm did it.. anyways in order to get the not so major stuff up we have to rescript them ourselves and send them in.. why? are you just too lazy? If I could script i would be doing all this stuff :\

Edit:
Here is my list of what should be done

1) Atleast bring back the old overworld, Avalon, Big City Volcano etc

2)Original movement system

3)new or old quests NOT that crappy maze one

4)more updates a trusthworthy LAT team that WILL be able to update the warptex

jacob_bald6225
12-16-2005, 07:27 AM
2)Original movement system

Amen!

Tyhm
12-16-2005, 10:45 AM
lol... I can respect that. But why in the world did you use him?

Because it was funny, duh. ^_~

Hillarious. This late in the development, people still seem to think throwing fullhearts at players is better than the stupid Hera system. Spoiled...

Warcaptain
12-16-2005, 10:56 AM
<what Tyhm said at the top of this page>


I ran into the same problems with Enigma. (I know it's not a popular topic.. anywhere.. because people seemed to hate it.)

The original world I released was horrible.. really really horrible. When the playerworld went up half of the things didn't work and I had no idea that things were different online than offline. I struggled daily to keep things running. (This was, mind you, back when there were only like 5 playerworlds. So don't go saying things like, "Well you should have worked on other playerworlds before you made one, then you would have known.") And then I released a whole new overworld to try and start from scratch.. this made everyone mad of course. Enigma at that time had around 100 players daily and everyone liked it (for who knows what reason) Then once I was forced to change the new overworld (years later) to comply with NPC-Server.. everyone got mad again. You can never please the players of Graal. I can empathize with them, I think back to 'Graal Online' (before it became called 'classic') and I love it. Everything was so fun, and the simple things that seem so complicated now.. like guilds, staff, and level rights.. didn't matter. Everyone pitched in to help a struggling game that was really fun. But I guess thats just a side effect of getting older, you look back on the way things used to be and wish they were that way again. The fools journey is trying to make those things back the way they were.

Tyhm
12-16-2005, 02:13 PM
Yeah, that's the joke about nostalgia - you guys look back to the 138 levelset and say it was perfect. I say it looked like a psychopath with a staplegun assembled a collage of levels that often didn't even match up pathwise (one path would go from 15 to 19 y, another from 23y to 27y, and in the next level they'd be 14-20y and 40-44y, ish), the treetops looked awful when the levels connected on the overworld map, if you were lucky a warp that was supposed to have been removed would still be buried in the wall and you could chance upon a free heart and goldsword (in more than one location), there were minigames that would do nothing more than take your money and lock you in place, it was only a matter of time before the copyright lawyers caught up with us - it was a travesty.
So I upload it to see if anyone will agree with me under the name of Old Graal, or Graal 1999, or whatever, and everyone says "Hey Tyhm, you dumas, you uploaded the wrong version! I didn't want this copy, I wanted the one right before it, when everything was perfect!" It's not a question of failing to get it quite right, it's a question of missing the point entirely - no matter what version I put up, it's not going to be the one where everything was perfect.
The downside of running Classic is it requires a really minimalist touch. It is the nature of every LAT to want to build New and Better things, not to simply preserve and repair, thus it is the dillema of every LAT to go against their own nature for the enjoyment of the game. I introduced Heras because we were already out of fullhearts (all 20 being placed somewhere on the server outside of "quests", unless you count "find Armageddon's house" a quest, or "Pay 10,000g" a quest) and everyone hated it. Rag and I reworked the dungeon because the tiling was awful and the continuity based entirely on an admin manually resetting the level, and everyone hated it. I had Ange and honds (I think, my logs are in a zip file somewhere) redo the entire frelling coast so Graal Continent would no longer be a vast black shadow with the occasional patch of water, and everyone hated it. I added the moon and nobody liked it. I added the underwater and actually people enjoyed that for reasons I'll never understand - if there are so few people, doubling the playable area ought to be a bad thing.
Maybe that's the problem. Adding quests stretches people out, as newbies will be in Quest areas rather than Level13. But then, I never saw PKing as a particularly positive thing, mostly as my queries for WHERE I GET YING YANG IN BOX?!? were met by three quick axeswings to the back.

Darlene159
12-16-2005, 05:19 PM
It's not a question of failing to get it quite right, it's a question of missing the point entirely - no matter what version I put up, it's not going to be the one where everything was perfect.No truer words were ever said. Been there, done that.

I don't know, in my opinion, I think it is better to update pw's to draw in new players, then to keep a pw the same for oldbies (even though I loved old classic, and miss it).
New players join every day, oldbies eventually move on.

*shrugs*
Graal is moving forward, the pw's should also move forward.
Just my opinion...

jake13jake
12-16-2005, 07:06 PM
The original social environment of Classic was that everyone was just there to have fun and nobody cared about cheaters because everyone was able to cheat and everyone was able to upload their houses. They were just there to talk about things and freely enjoy themselves in a world of mostly anarchy. Euhh... also.. the level editor wasn't the greatest so you would be more likely to see tile errors and a lot more predefined objects in older levels. If you look at Zol's bedroom (which I just restored to its former fashion) and Stefan's House in Onnet Town, they are really similar. There were probably predefined levels too. Like for bedrooms, you know?

The quest structure in old really sucked, though, which is why I'm devoting a lot of time and space on the overworld to quests. Once the overworld is an island, and before we start adding the other islands we've (already) made and some of the old islands, I'm going to start taking player houses rather than trying to use the warptex. The warptex is good for a larger group of player levels, but it wouldn't share the environment of the other player levels.

Oh yea, and the other thing that made Classic Classic in the first place is that people didn't ***** about changes in the original level set. They were rather embraced. Let's say we reverted level14 to Yoshi's house and the Dark World Entrance... that probably wouldn't go over well...

Inspiration
12-16-2005, 07:34 PM
Yeah, that's the joke about nostalgia - you guys look back to the 138 levelset and say it was perfect.


You're missing my point. I never said it was perfect, nor did anyone else.

That level set, I believe, is ideal, not perfect. It is ideal because it is the level set most people remember, and because it had the most content.


I say it looked like a psychopath with a staplegun assembled a collage of levels that often didn't even match up

This sort of stuff can be fixed without any real problem. Is it tedious to do so, yeah. But very simple.

everyone says "Hey Tyhm, you dumas, you uploaded the wrong version! I didn't want this copy, I wanted the one right before it, when everything was perfect!"

Then simply ask them exactly what is in the version they want that the uploaded one does not have. If they have valid requests, work on adding them.

Chances are it will just be people complaining for the sake of it.


It's not a question of failing to get it quite right, it's a question of missing the point entirely - no matter what version I put up, it's not going to be the one where everything was perfect.

And no matter how many times you rework and remake classic, it will not be perfect.

Why would you be aiming for perfection?


The downside of running Classic is it requires a really minimalist touch. It is the nature of every LAT to want to build New and Better things, not to simply preserve and repair, thus it is the dillema of every LAT to go against their own nature for the enjoyment of the game.

There are 100 other player worlds where they can create and build new and better things all day.

When you work on classic, your goal should not be to bring your own vision of classic in. Classic is not just a playerworld.


I introduced Heras because we were already out of fullhearts (all 20 being placed somewhere on the server outside of "quests", unless you count "find Armageddon's house" a quest, or "Pay 10,000g" a quest) and everyone hated it.

Back in the day when there were 5 servers and over 200 people on classic, a system like Hera's would work.

Right now, let's think of this from a new players perspective.

You have a handful of servers to play. Server A, B, and C.

Server A has quests that can be completed in 3 hours. The population of server A is about 150 people.

Server B has no heart quests at all, or item quests. You simply log on with everything and can go right to PKing and sparring, and being part of the community. Server B has about 50 people.

Server C has hard to find quests that require tons and tons of walking and fighting. At best, as a new player, you can get most of them done in maybe 15 hours. Server C has about 20-30 people.


As a new player, A or B seems attractive to me. C seems like too much work for such a small community.


Adding quests stretches people out, as newbies will be in Quest areas rather than Level13.

Yeah, this is a good thing if:

A) There are any newbies
B) There is a player count of over 20


Graal no longer has the kind of playerbase it needs to stretch people out. People simply want to socialize, spar, PK, and do events. They don't want to run around a server for 10 hours doing tedious quests. Thus, they pick a server that has a larger, easier community to get into.

maximus_asinus
12-16-2005, 09:54 PM
I think we're still ignoring a critical point here. Does reverting back to the older level set lure players back onto the server? Will they stay? What will happen? Sure there will be tons more room to explore for the newbies, but will they stay? I don't think they would. If we cannot expand to meet the ever changing demand for quality, who would continue to play? I'm sure we'd satisfy the 'oldbie' population, but we aren't thinking about anyone else. What is more appealing to a player when they first log onto graal? Half detailed levels with nothing useful inside? Or what Massokre is doing (trying to give each level something useful, trying to intertwining each level, updating but not overrighting each level's style). If you say the former rather then the latter, you are lying to yourself.

You people make it sound so easy when you say that reverting back to the old levels would solve all our problems, but that is simply not true. You want to satisfy one party, and completely ignore the other. I think Massokre's vision is going to be very close to what we'd all expect Classic to be, you just need to give him some time; I will beat you with a sack of patatoes if you say something about NPC Server being up for however long, Massokre was only made LAT Admin this September and there has been tons of progress with him leading LAT, I doubt anyone else is as qualified as him to replace him either.

Now I am half awake when I wrote this, but if you can actually see what I'm saying and you wish to refute something I say, do not ignore my points and drone on about old levels, actually try and defend your position on reverting.

iownu
12-17-2005, 03:30 AM
I think we're still ignoring a critical point here. Does reverting back to the older level set lure players back onto the server?


I think that was already addressed to some degree. People start a server due to player count, levels, and how easy it is to become part of the community (friendliness of players, ease of questing, ect)

They stay for the sparring, PKing, and events.

You can add content to levels until you're blue in the face, and people will still just spar, PK, and play events all day.

Tyhm
12-17-2005, 10:06 AM
Ease of questing is a fallacy. If the quests are as easy as Walk down this hall and pick up your equipment, there's no sense of accomplishment - and nothing to defend.
But difficulty is not an end unto itself either. If you set the bar too high - and the Magic Quest very nearly did, I barely survived it myself - you scare off the newbies. The quest should be long, but not necessarily deadly, and more importantly it should have a number of acceptable Outs. You should be able to get the gloves and go PK - maybe not on even footing with the Lizardsword Lizardshield 20heart oldbies, but not so badly that you'll be squished. "You need the L3 Sword" because it does 3 times the damage of the newbie sword when wielded against other players - I don't know that that's exactly right. One more heart means it takes something like another 2/3s of a hit to force a respawn, but being able to cut down a 3heart newbie in 2 slashes verses 3 slashes with the axe or 6 slashes with the training sword...that's a big leap. Fortunately, the movement system has the capacity to narrow that gap. Or perhaps more to the point, perhaps there should be an Alternate Quest? The Bloodhoned Blade, you have to sell your Graalian soul to dark powers to gain it and forever surrender your place as a possible Hero (at least until you reset), and it grows to the Lizard Sword based solely off kills? Hell, while we're at it why not harness the bloodlust - Heroes literally view these PKers as Baddies when they're not in the common (noplayerkilling) zones. Not in the quests, as a particularly gifted PKer could make a quest infinitely harder, but the Quest to Run to the Swamp becomes that much harder...

DarkCloud_PK
12-17-2005, 10:55 AM
Thank god I used GP Candy to continually keep myself at full health through the Magic Quest.

Inspiration
12-17-2005, 07:10 PM
Ease of questing is a fallacy. If the quests are as easy as Walk down this hall and pick up your equipment, there's no sense of accomplishment - and nothing to defend.
But difficulty is not an end unto itself either. If you set the bar too high - and the Magic Quest very nearly did, I barely survived it myself - you scare off the newbies. The quest should be long, but not necessarily deadly, and more importantly it should have a number of acceptable Outs. You should be able to get the gloves and go PK - maybe not on even footing with the Lizardsword Lizardshield 20heart oldbies, but not so badly that you'll be squished. "You need the L3 Sword" because it does 3 times the damage of the newbie sword when wielded against other players - I don't know that that's exactly right. One more heart means it takes something like another 2/3s of a hit to force a respawn, but being able to cut down a 3heart newbie in 2 slashes verses 3 slashes with the axe or 6 slashes with the training sword...that's a big leap. Fortunately, the movement system has the capacity to narrow that gap. Or perhaps more to the point, perhaps there should be an Alternate Quest? The Bloodhoned Blade, you have to sell your Graalian soul to dark powers to gain it and forever surrender your place as a possible Hero (at least until you reset), and it grows to the Lizard Sword based solely off kills? Hell, while we're at it why not harness the bloodlust - Heroes literally view these PKers as Baddies when they're not in the common (noplayerkilling) zones. Not in the quests, as a particularly gifted PKer could make a quest infinitely harder, but the Quest to Run to the Swamp becomes that much harder...


As I said, your ideas would have been fine 4 years ago. The playerbase no longer lends itself to this sort of thing.

If given the choice, 8/10 times a new player will pick the server with the easy quests and high player count.

Very few people feel quests are anything more than an annoyance. This is a multiplayer game that lives off it's community. Single player quests are not what people want to do on it.

yojimbokintoray
12-17-2005, 07:59 PM
Maximus how can it be classic if there are 20 original levels? If newbs want to play let them go on UN or Npulse.. Classic should be classic so newbies can come and see what Graal use to be back in the good days before idiots like storm and the classic LAT team Killed it. Classic is dead now anyway and new levels will not save it anyway..

maximus_asinus
12-17-2005, 08:12 PM
Maximus how can it be classic if there are 20 original levels? If newbs want to play let them go on UN or Npulse.. Classic should be classic so newbies can come and see what Graal use to be back in the good days before idiots like storm and the classic LAT team Killed it. Classic is dead now anyway and new levels will not save it anyway..
I don't think you even know what you're talking about. Classic was never a server to serve as a monument to old levels. Style MAYBE. If you look at each level pack, you'd notice drastic changes as you go along. Its foolish to define what Classic was by the levels. Classic was a community thing.

According to that definition Classic is dead, and the server should go private like other playerworlds in development.
There is a community, you just choose not to take part in it.

Minoc
12-17-2005, 08:39 PM
I don't think you even know what you're talking about. Classic was never a server to serve as a monument to old levels. Style MAYBE. If you look at each level pack, you'd notice drastic changes as you go along. Its foolish to define what Classic was by the levels. Classic was a community thing.
According to that definition Classic is dead, and the server should go private like other playerworlds in development.

jake13jake
12-18-2005, 01:25 AM
Maximus how can it be classic if there are 20 original levels? If newbs want to play let them go on UN or Npulse.. Classic should be classic so newbies can come and see what Graal use to be back in the good days before idiots like storm and the classic LAT team Killed it. Classic is dead now anyway and new levels will not save it anyway..
lmao, I'm using way more of the old classic levels than that, even if the map won't resemble anything like it.

Also, Tyhm....
The first quest I'm making has no baddies, instead it has it's fair share of puzzles. Although, you might be thrown back in the dungeon cell a few times, I'm not going to give the secret away to breaking out the short way. (here's some other hints, stay in the basement until you've explored everything, and the guards can't see without light).

Luda
12-18-2005, 02:05 AM
Why does everyone hate hera's? :frown: I thought they were pretty cool.

jake13jake
12-18-2005, 03:04 AM
Why does everyone hate hera's? :frown: I thought they were pretty cool.
I liked them too, I just hated how it took more and more hera's every time.

Luda
12-18-2005, 04:13 AM
I liked them too, I just hated how it took more and more hera's every time.
Yeah I hated that too, but the idea was great they were just like heart peices in Zelda games.

jake13jake
12-18-2005, 07:45 AM
Yeah I hated that too, but the idea was great they were just like heart peices in Zelda games.
Yea, it would be a great thing to bring them back for miniquests, don't know if storm would be up to it though. I loved the graphic for them.

Tyhm
12-18-2005, 08:59 AM
As I said, your ideas would have been fine 4 years ago. The playerbase no longer lends itself to this sort of thing.

If given the choice, 8/10 times a new player will pick the server with the easy quests and high player count.

Very few people feel quests are anything more than an annoyance. This is a multiplayer game that lives off it's community. Single player quests are not what people want to do on it.

Then Classic's doomed. If the playerbase is entirely unwilling to even kill their way to the best weapons, there's no longer a world on which to advance, even hypothetically.

Although, if we're going to insist that newbies not be burdened with the responsibility of questing for their stuff, we can just disallow all the "optional" quest items in PKing. Every sword does a newbiesword worth of damage, and everyone has a seperate PK health bar. :-P

syltburk
12-18-2005, 01:39 PM
Actually back in the time I enjoyed those quests, they were different.. Not the "killz baddies and get heart". *thumbsup*

Cubes
12-19-2005, 05:35 AM
*cries* What has graal came to?? New and better well maybe in some way or another but you cant just pull the classicness out of classic you would have to change the name to ***-classic and yea just put the old classic up and fix major tile errors and anything that will make a player get stuck and make a new god damn server for yourselfs

Darlene159
12-19-2005, 05:32 PM
*cries* What has graal came to?? New and better well maybe in some way or another but you cant just pull the classicness out of classic you would have to change the name to ***-classic and yea just put the old classic up and fix major tile errors and anything that will make a player get stuck and make a new god damn server for yourselfsThe problem with that is, the server probably wont draw new players that way.
Yes, it would be great for people who have been playing Graal since the beginning, and started on Classic.

The thing is, if Classic admins want a playerworld that is up for the oldbie Graal players from years ago, which will eventually have no players, or next to no players on it (except for the occassional person who slides on to check it out, then leaves), then they can put up old classic.
Keep in mind, too, that the community which classic had back then is gone, and Classic will never be the same again regardless of what they do.

If they want to draw in new players, who know nothing about the way classic used to be, and have a chance to actually have a decent playercount, then they need to make improvements to draw those new players in (face it, classic is not the only pw out there anymore).

I know this seems like a complete contradiction to my first post (I guess it is), but I loved Classic when I first started playing, and I would love to have it back. After thinking about it though, I have realized that there is no way of getting it back, because it thrived alot on the community, which for the most part, is gone. Things were alot different back then (Graal was free, Classic was the only server, and so on...) *shrugs* It's time to move on....

This is just the way it is, in my opinion.

Minoc
12-19-2005, 06:25 PM
The problem with that is, the server probably wont draw new players that way.
Yes, it would be great for people who have been playing Graal since the beginning, and started on Classic.
Wrong, many newer players may want to see what Graal was originally like.


The thing is, if Classic admins want a playerworld that is up for the oldbie Graal players from years ago, which will eventually have no players, or next to no players on it (except for the occassional person who slides on to check it out, then leaves), then they can put up old classic.
Keep in mind, too, that the community which classic had back then is gone, and Classic will never be the same again regardless of what they do.
What are these assumptions based on?
I believe an Old Graal server is more likely to get more players, both old and new ones.
I recently quit the server (which is the only one I played besides Graal2001) along with many older players, I bet that helped the playercount.


If they want to draw in new players, who know nothing about the way classic used to be, and have a chance to actually have a decent playercount, then they need to make improvements to draw those new players in (face it, classic is not the only pw out there anymore).
Improvements?
How could the removal of 95% of the levels possibly be an improvement?
The recent additions have nothing to do with the old server.
Tell me, what makes the server as it is today any different than the rest of the playerworlds?

Darlene159
12-19-2005, 07:29 PM
Wrong, many newer players may want to see what Graal was originally like.I wouldn't say many, but yea, some might. Do you think the goal should be to get new players to just "check it out"? Or should the goal be to get new players to check it out, and want to stay?

What are these assumptions based on?Experience from managing NP (also an old server)
I believe an Old Graal server is more likely to get more players, both old and new ones.
I recently quit the server (which is the only one I played besides Graal2001) along with many older players, I bet that helped the playercount.Some of the oldbies might come back, and some new players might go check it out, but do you honestly think they will stay if they check out other, more updated servers?

Improvements?
How could the removal of 95% of the levels possibly be an improvement?
The recent additions have nothing to do with the old server.
Tell me, what makes the server as it is today any different than the rest of the playerworlds?From what I have read, the Manager is trying to keep some aspects of the old server, and building onto it. It also seems to me that he didn't have much of a choice as to whether or not to make changes, as it seems to be Stefan's choice?

Minoc
12-19-2005, 08:25 PM
Experience from managing NP (also an old server)
Different server, different players.


Some of the oldbies might come back, and some new players might go check it out, but do you honestly think they will stay if they check out other, more updated servers?
I do, as no other server even resembles Old Graal.


From what I have read, the Manager is trying to keep some aspects of the old server, and building onto it.
But from what I have seen, that statement is wrong.


It also seems to me that he didn't have much of a choice as to whether or not to make changes, as it seems to be Stefan's choice?
That's irrelevant.

syltburk
12-19-2005, 08:35 PM
sorry darlene, but n-pulse are totally different from classic, both content-wisely and also the players. You have to be their to understand it.

Inspiration
12-19-2005, 08:40 PM
Classic would attract players off it's community and novelty, and that's how it should be.

It should not have to become like a "new" server to attract the new players. Why even call it classic then? Switch it back to Graal: The Adventure if that's all it's going to be.

Minoc
12-19-2005, 09:32 PM
You have to be their to understand it.
A bit too late for that.

yojimbokintoray
12-20-2005, 12:34 AM
new manager would fix all problems.. so add someone like Inspiration as manager and classic will be good agen

Darlene159
12-20-2005, 01:51 AM
sorry darlene, but n-pulse are totally different from classic, both content-wisely and also the players. You have to be their to understand it.That is correct, however, that isn't really what I was talking about.
The oldbies of NP feel the same way about NP as the Classic oldbies feel about Classic...see what I mean?
Also, I was there. I played Classic for a long time when I first started playing about 6 years ago I think, somewhere around there, and I loved it.
new manager would fix all problems.. so add someone like Inspiration as manager and classic will be good agenPlayers will have a problem with any Manager chosen, it's the way Graal is.
Everyone is different, and have different opinions, and preferences.
No Manager will ever be able to satisfy everyone 100%

To Minoc: I really can't argue with you about the state of Classic right now, as I don't really play it often enough.
I only offered my opinion on the way Classic used to be, and what I thought about the debate on whether to change it, or keep it the same.
So I really don't want to debate the issue to death.

To be honest, I am really torn between what I want to see, and what I think would be the right thing to do, both being different.

I want old Classic, but I do not believe that is the right thing to do for the future of Classic.

Tyhm
12-20-2005, 02:46 AM
Why are we even having this discussion? Do you people honestly believe the only thing wrong with Graal1999 was that I uploaded the wrong frelling version?
If you want an Archived Graal, go ahead and upload it, I won't stop you. You can even manage it how you like. However, be ye warned - it's unlikely you'll have the only one, and therein lies the problem. Everyone wants there to be One Old Classic, not a Old Classic and a New Classic.

Perhaps the answer lies in convincing Unixmad to host an Archived Classic as a sort of tea garden for people who want to reflect on the Graal that was, a quiet and lightly-populated server but nonetheless bearing the Mark of the City as it were, immune to eminent domain and revision by virtue of it already has a manager who will never show up to upload your supercool playerhouse. Then the New Classic can cater mercilessly to newbies without people railing that it isn't the same as it was when it was the only server and everyone could either play on it or go play Starcraft, because those were the only two games their computer could handle.

jake13jake
12-20-2005, 03:40 AM
I do, as no other server even resembles Old Graal.

I'm trying to save what is the best of the content (pieces of Kull's, majority of Sardon's Tower, Nimda, parts of Babord, and so on). Also Minoc, did you miss my warp ring update when you quit?
The new overworld map, I'm afraid isn't going to look anything like the old bigmap, but it will still have the same elements, just relocated and tiled differently. If that mountain in the north of the overworld had never been put there, it would probably be closer to the same. Still, everyone's that looked at my proposed overworld map likes it, so there's no fretting over it, just getting it done. The difference in the gnome caves might shock a lot of people, but that's the only thing I can really think of that would... besides maybe Kull's a little bit.

Also, I'm not going to add a new quest until we have some security issues resolved. Storm doesn't like my proposition of coping with them (logon save points that would also go in effect when the NPC Server shuts off). I'd want to save the player's current level,x,y and then also give them the warp ring selections of where to start when the player connects or the NPC server shuts down and comes back on. The biggest point Storm had in his argument was that it would disrupt players on an NPC Server reset.

Can someone besides me, please bug Storm to death about getting movement done. And also, Tyhm, you're free to come back and help with levels.

Dark_Zeratul101
12-20-2005, 04:39 AM
Players will have a problem with any Manager chosen, it's the way Graal is.
Everyone is different, and have different opinions, and preferences.
No Manager will ever be able to satisfy everyone 100% ::BAFFLED BY THIS::

Players will have a problem with any Manager they DON'T LIKE.

Yeah everybody is different, but if they are focusing on Classic then they have a part of devotion to it.


Anyways, the problem is that we are depending on Old Classic and yet we are not encouraging New Classic.

Right now it is lacking the appeal for players, and with the lack of it, Classic's light will still be at yellow. Yes, IMHO the players have created a lot of classic. They created houses, they created guilds, and they well, created some stuff! And all that stuff had open room for quests.

Of course they have made some things happen; endless pking, weird player-made events, famous and infamous challengers of Graal, war waging guild-masters.

But how does Classic discourage this? EXAMPLES BELOW okay.

Some guy: Hey my friend and I made this house to hang out can you upload it at some random area.

LAT: THIS HOUSE LACKS EVERYTHING DETAIL NEEDS, IT JUST HAS, TABLES, BEERS, AND BEDROOMS.

Some guy: I don't see the point of not adding it, it can be a hangout place for certain people, I don't see why it gives off a bad impressi-

LAT: BLARGHOOHEHARHGB

Some guy: Man no wonder they don't have a, "YOU ARE WELCOME TO MAKE HOUSES AND STUFF" sign. It is already giving other people the impression to not contribute to this server, not make guilds for this, help staff, they don't bother trying. It is like a chain reaction! Jeeze how discouraging.

I agree with Tyhm if I interperated it correctly while skimming through the messages, old servers need back their old people. So why not make a new server for new people?

Oh god I have to log off bye.

StrykerTFFD
12-20-2005, 07:17 AM
new manager would fix all problems.. so add someone like Inspiration as manager and classic will be good agen

No.

Tyhm
12-20-2005, 09:01 AM
And also, Tyhm, you're free to come back and help with levels.

Pish, like I need your permission. I'm an Emeritus, by my own regulations I can return whenever I feel like it. ;) (But I wouldn't do that to you, so don't sweat it)

I dunno. I like that Classic has its Link To The Past. Maybe it needs a time machine, so people can go back to the exact levelset, in the exact month, that they like. Lots of duplicate levels in duplicate folders that way, but nobody could complain that we failed to accurately reproduce their world their way.
They'd just complain that the imperfect worlds also exist.
And I'd be tempted to put in the past events that led up to the earthquake machine in Avalon...^_~

jake13jake
12-20-2005, 12:03 PM
*looks up Emeritus* ahhh.. okay.

"And I'd be tempted to put in the past events that led up to the earthquake machine in Avalon...^_~"

As much as I liked that quest, and as much as I loved Avalon, I don't plan on readding Avalon (as an island at least). btw Tyhm, I'm not manager.

Also, to Stryker. How'd you manage to catch me healing test subjects, but fail to catch some other people altering their flags and attributes through RC (or at least failing to inform me)? Some kind of incentive against me that you'd look up my name? Seriously, if you were looking through the RC Log, you wouldn't have missed what I just fired someone for, and am questioning Storm as to banning this one and removing this one's GC Items.

To the person rambling about player house submissions. We're not rejecting them, we're simply not accepting them as of yet. I want to get the overworld expanded to an island first, and might even start accepting before that.

yojimbokintoray
12-20-2005, 03:15 PM
tyhm i did ask stefan if i could remake graal 2000 agen and pay for it as my own server. Stefan did say yes but he wanted me to ask storm and storm did say NO so a good idea was denyd cuz storm is an ass.
also that time machine will be like the oldgraal we hade lol u pay 5 bux to see the old graal? haha
and to stryker: YES a new manager would make things better.

Tyhm
12-20-2005, 05:18 PM
Stormy - let him have his fun. Worst case scenario, he makes some oldbies happy and they stop bothering us. Best case scenario, he's got it out of his system, it's a win-win. Clearly Extant Classic isn't as concerned about its roots as some of the more die hard conservatives insist it should be.

syltburk
12-20-2005, 05:30 PM
Stormy - let him have his fun. Worst case scenario, he makes some oldbies happy and they stop bothering us. Best case scenario, he's got it out of his system, it's a win-win. Clearly Extant Classic isn't as concerned about its roots as some of the more die hard conservatives insist it should be.
There would be no worst case scenario because its based on trust, raistlin (yoimbokintoray) are not the one I would like to see as manager.

I would like MS to stay, but I want massokre gone :(

maximus_asinus
12-20-2005, 05:39 PM
I would like MS to stay, but I want massokre gone :(
What exactly did Massokre do? (lets keep in mind that he was only made LAT Admin in September).

Minoc
12-20-2005, 06:11 PM
tyhm i did ask stefan if i could remake graal 2000 agen and pay for it as my own server. Stefan did say yes but he wanted me to ask storm and storm did say NO so a good idea was denyd cuz storm is an ass.
I asked Stefan the same thing months ago.
You can't create a server without an NPC server, the levels would have to be converted. :(

Minoc
12-20-2005, 06:22 PM
I'm trying to save what is the best of the content (pieces of Kull's, majority of Sardon's Tower, Nimda, parts of Babord, and so on). Also Minoc, did you miss my warp ring update when you quit?
The new overworld map, I'm afraid isn't going to look anything like the old bigmap, but it will still have the same elements, just relocated and tiled differently. If that mountain in the north of the overworld had never been put there, it would probably be closer to the same. Still, everyone's that looked at my proposed overworld map likes it, so there's no fretting over it, just getting it done. The difference in the gnome caves might shock a lot of people, but that's the only thing I can really think of that would... besides maybe Kull's a little bit.
Not enough old content is being brought back in my opinion, and overall, the server feels different.

Inspiration
12-20-2005, 07:52 PM
If someone gets permission to actually remake a true classic server (like Graal 2000), and it's promised a spot on the classic tab upon completion, I might be interested in handling a lot of the development as far as transfering/rescripting goes.


Or even something like we get our chance to make our own version of classic, put it aganist Storm's, and winner takes all.

In 3 months I could have a classic server vastly superior in every way to what storm has had over a year to do.

Polo
12-20-2005, 08:15 PM
Stormy - let him have his fun. Worst case scenario, he makes some oldbies happy and they stop bothering us. Best case scenario, he's got it out of his system, it's a win-win. Clearly Extant Classic isn't as concerned about its roots as some of the more die hard conservatives insist it should be.

The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.

Luda
12-20-2005, 08:30 PM
the mountain up top of the current overworld seems too straight :(
I say shape it around a bit

Minoc
12-20-2005, 09:54 PM
The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.
The community had already been teared.

yojimbokintoray
12-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Minoc:there are alot of people that would help re script to make a old classic server.
That aint the problem. Storm is just sad cuz i would take away all hes players from new crappy classic and everyone would see hes vision of classic sucks.

Jaffer: I would not want to be a manager of this new crappy classic. But i would like to see someone oldschool be manager fk it even tyhm would be better then storm.

iownu
12-20-2005, 11:28 PM
The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.

Which is why the idea of a competition works well.

Whoever can produce the better server, that most accurately reflects the name "Classic" by let's say, april or may, gets the spot.

PWA, Stefan, the players, or all of the above can judge the two.

You've had pleanty of time to have something out that is much better than this.

If you think you're doing the best job possible, or even a good job, you wouldnt have any reason to not agree to this.

Polo
12-21-2005, 01:45 AM
If you think you're doing the best job possible, or even a good job, you wouldnt have any reason to not agree to this.
That, in my opinion is incorrect. There are countless examples in real life where rivalry has led the consumer to select neither, opting for the so-called third option.

StrykerTFFD
12-21-2005, 02:24 AM
Also, to Stryker. How'd you manage to catch me healing test subjects, but fail to catch some other people altering their flags and attributes through RC (or at least failing to inform me)? Some kind of incentive against me that you'd look up my name? Seriously, if you were looking through the RC Log, you wouldn't have missed what I just fired someone for, and am questioning Storm as to banning this one and removing this one's GC Items.


Next time, take it to PMs, however to answer your question, I haven't been around. Way to be observant.

I'm having health issues. Now to continue what I've been saying, don't talk to me. ^^

*EDIT*
So it was Mighty doing it? I got on him for it. I didn't think it was that big a deal because he removed the things right after, so I guess he did it again. Whatever?

Deophite18
12-21-2005, 03:12 AM
I like Storm and i supported him for Manager of Classic when the decision was being made. I thought things would be so much better if he was Manager. I thought stuff would get done faster and the playercount would go back up again. But as much as i like him i must say i was wrong in my assumptions. He went in the totally opposite direction, especially post NPC server. I don't know how many times this needs to be said but i will say it again. We need someone who gives the players what THEY want. I really do not know what he is doing. Maybe since he couldnt finish his own server he is using all his ideas he had for it for classic which isnt right if you ask me. You talk about making new levels to attract new players. But when i log on the majority of the people i see playing are people from years ago. I doubt that will change. They are loyal to there server. I also dont see anyone argueing to keep classic the same it is now. Everyone wants it back to the way it was before. The only thing classi needs is all the old levels pre NPC server with a few new extra things here and there. Updated levels like supernicks etc...and the destruction of that horrid hit detection.

Inspiration
12-21-2005, 06:18 AM
That, in my opinion is incorrect. There are countless examples in real life where rivalry has led the consumer to select neither, opting for the so-called third option.

What is stopping the comsumer from selecting something else right now? Nothing. In fact, most people are.

What I'm saying, flat out, is I can make a better "Classic" than you in much less time than you've had, that a larger majority of players will enjoy.

It won't be perfect, and not everyone will enjoy it, but it won't be a butchered server that resembles classic in no way besides a few levels like the current one is.

If you think we're wrong, allow us access to the content and allow us the chance to do so. If we fall, you gain proof that no one can do better than you are. If we don't, everyone gains a better server.

yojimbokintoray
12-21-2005, 02:48 PM
ive been telling this to storm for months on RC. but when everyone ells is kissing hes ass on rc its hard to get him so see that this classic is crap. I wanted storm to be manager when decision was made. sure i mean an old school player as manager would be good right? i did not think he would delete the playerworld and kill everything that is "classic" about this server.
anyway a complain have been broth to stefan and i hope he will do somthing to get classic back like it was when it was good.

Polo
12-21-2005, 07:24 PM
I'm tired of repeating myself. But here I go, again.

1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.
2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.
3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.
4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.
5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.
6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.
7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.
8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.
9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

Funnies:
1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.
2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.
3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.
4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.
5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.

Deophite18
12-21-2005, 08:14 PM
I'm tired of repeating myself. But here I go, again.

1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.
2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.
3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.
4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.
5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.
6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.
7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.
8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.
9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

Funnies:
1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.
2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.
3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.
4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.
5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.


Why is it the only server with the abnormal hit detection? And there is a way to please everyone and get things back to how they should be, but not if your in charge and not if you wont let anyone else do anything.

More positive feedback on new hit detection than bad? I dont believe that for a second. I dont think iv ever seen anyone say anything good about it. People always log on and go "WTH is wrong with this server" Also, the old players outweigh the new ones and that is probably how it will always be.

I think the fact that you won't allow anyone to make another server to compete with yours is proof that what everyone has said worries you. If you didnt have any doubts about your server then you would have allowed it, simple as that.

Polo
12-21-2005, 08:46 PM
Why is it the only server with the abnormal hit detection?
Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.

More positive feedback on new hit detection than bad? I dont believe that for a second. I dont think iv ever seen anyone say anything good about it. People always log on and go "WTH is wrong with this server"
It's a fact, but whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.

Also, the old players outweigh the new ones and that is probably how it will always be.
Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.

I think the fact that you won't allow anyone to make another server to compete with yours is proof that what everyone has said worries you. If you didnt have any doubts about your server then you would have allowed it, simple as that.
Thats plain incorrect, as my previous comments on the issue stated.

Crono
12-21-2005, 08:54 PM
You want old Graal? Make a server with the old damn tiles, then *****.

Luda
12-21-2005, 09:47 PM
hip hip horray for crono!

yojimbokintoray
12-21-2005, 10:44 PM
no point of talking to storm about this hes kissing stefans ass way to much.

Deophite18
12-22-2005, 12:25 AM
Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.


It's a fact, but whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.


Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.


Thats plain incorrect, as my previous comments on the issue stated.

Let's have a poll then if you are so sure. Then there won't be any doubt about what people really think about your hit detection. Also, kingdoms and Zone ARE NOT classic servers so they do not count :frown:

Tyhm
12-22-2005, 03:07 AM
You want old Graal? Make a server with the old damn tiles, then *****.

Can't, copyright infringement.

Also, kingdoms and Zone ARE NOT classic servers so they do not count

"Classic Server" is a term that was invented to distinguish between NPCServ and non-NPCServ servers. As non NPCServ servers are no longer supported, "Classic Server" has become an undefined term. Please elaborate, then, on what defines a "Classic Server".

As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script. You want to do Graal a favor, petition for a common scripting database, either to be distributed with the runtime or in a CommDlg style library in the server, but in any eventuality to grant even the newest of the new worlds commands that work - little details like movement and hit detection, foundations that they can build off of. join cmnmovement;

Luda
12-22-2005, 03:12 AM
Even if we asked to "borrow" the hit detection Storm would wan't to keep his.
I am now used to the new hit detection so I don't care anymore :whatever:

Oh and does anyone know why maximus_asinus, and seize quit LAT?
and why was Mighty fired?

jake13jake
12-22-2005, 04:27 AM
Oh and does anyone know why maximus_asinus, and seize quit LAT?
and why was Mighty fired?
You can ask Stryker why Mighty was fired, because he's the one that failed to inform me of what he was up to.
Maximus has his reasons.
Seize is still up in the air, but he doesn't like a lot of the staff rules.

And Storm, you're in denial if you believe more good has been said about your hit detection than bad. It was the same case with your movement. Meanwhile, you decided to start building your own new movement system after I had made a perfect script that we could build off of. I also just came up with a way to make it work perfectly for all speeds (those greater than or equal to 3 tiles/iteration included now). Really we'd just have to build the side movement system, and I could probably do that as well as you (considering your two leading tiles theory is completely wrong). I mean, my movement system, you can build off of reusing my movement system (sidemoving/drunk/ice/circles). The only thing I'm really afraid of scripting is the hit detection, but that doesn't mean I can't tell you a few things that you could do to improve it. Well, quite a few things if you include structure.

StrykerTFFD
12-22-2005, 04:42 AM
You can ask Stryker why Mighty was fired, because he's the one that failed to inform me of what he was up to.


I took care of it myself. If I'm going to be responsible for babysitting YOUR staff members then I'm going to take care of any issues. It's not my fault YOUR staff member abused his rights after I got him to undo what he did the first time.

I haven't been around to take care of it a second time, so get off my back for not punishing YOUR staff member.

Luda
12-22-2005, 04:44 AM
I took care of it myself. If I'm going to be responsible for babysitting YOUR staff members then I'm going to take care of any issues. It's not my fault YOUR staff member abused his rights after I got him to undo what he did the first time.

I haven't been around to take care of it a second time, so get off my back for not punishing YOUR staff member.

Wanna tell me why? I'm just curious,because we lost some good LATs, forum PM or something.

Deophite18
12-22-2005, 05:33 AM
Can't, copyright infringement.



"Classic Server" is a term that was invented to distinguish between NPCServ and non-NPCServ servers. As non NPCServ servers are no longer supported, "Classic Server" has become an undefined term. Please elaborate, then, on what defines a "Classic Server".

As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script. You want to do Graal a favor, petition for a common scripting database, either to be distributed with the runtime or in a CommDlg style library in the server, but in any eventuality to grant even the newest of the new worlds commands that work - little details like movement and hit detection, foundations that they can build off of. join cmnmovement;


Classic server as in any server under the classic tab.

Inspiration
12-22-2005, 06:52 AM
1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.

NPC server was never stated as a bad thing. It's understandable that it will take time to convert old scripts to conform, but not THIS much time.


2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.

So that makes your lack of progress excusable?


3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.

Then use them.

4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.

Then script them as close to the old ones as possible. Quite easy.


5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.

I've seen tons of servers with GMAPs that don't have wacked out hit detection like classic.


6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.

And 75% of that 95% simply require serverside/clientside destinction, which is about 2 minutes of work per script.


7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.

Yeah, and with all the new commands, very easy to debug.


8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.
Incorrect, when you consider the amount of new players who are joining Graal.

Appise your old player base, make them happy, and new people will be more likely to join.

No one will be attracted to a server in which the current players are not happy with.


9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

It is.


1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.

That's just people being picky over small issues, not an excuse to discount everything people say an nonsense.


2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.

Hahahahahaha. Let's make that poll, shall we?


3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.


The only thing supernicks needed really was some updated scripting.


4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.

Give some examples.


5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

I believe your reasoning for why the playercount went up/down is kinda flawed.



The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.

Then try to actually accept opinions and help, and work with the people who have played this server, and who want a real classic back, instead of saying "I'm doing what I can".

I turned a whole server around in 4 months with the help of my staff and players. I updated an entire 150+ level map, added/rescripted tons of NPCs, and made mostly everyone happy.

I didnt do it by myself. I did it by LISTENING to my players, by admitting that I didnt know everything, and by actually having the desire to keep everyone happy.

jake13jake
12-22-2005, 09:05 AM
I turned a whole server around in 4 months with the help of my staff and players. I updated an entire 150+ level map, added/rescripted tons of NPCs, and made mostly everyone happy.

I didnt do it by myself. I did it by LISTENING to my players, by admitting that I didnt know everything, and by actually having the desire to keep everyone happy.

Haha, I've already turned Classic around, it's just that nobody's seen it yet. Can't somebody help me make baddies (STORM)? I'm the only scripter :(.

yojimbokintoray
12-22-2005, 03:08 PM
lol turned classic around.. the new levels suck, if classic was turned around we would have more players on then UN. but iguess massoke and storm wont confess that there way to making classic good is just killing it more. Inspiration for manager!!!!! he knows what this server needs.

jake13jake
12-22-2005, 03:15 PM
lol turned classic around.. the new levels suck, if classic was turned around we would have more players on then UN. but iguess massoke and storm wont confess that there way to making classic good is just killing it more. Inspiration for manager!!!!! he knows what this server needs.
LoLoL... My turn around for Classic is from 4 years of little progress, to lots of progress.

maximus_asinus
12-22-2005, 05:59 PM
I think its rather pointless to continue debating in this thread. Each person has an opinion (while some person(s) are unfounded and obsurd, others make some very good points) but not matter what, we won't change it. Storm has given his reasoning to why he had to restart the server from scratch, and I agree with that in concept, but the number of levels he decided to bring back are few and far between, and I know we'd love to see some of the old stuff come back, and thats is precisely what Massokre is trying to do. Massokre was only hired for LAT Admin back in September, and in the two months I've worked with him, hes been very active, and has created a large amount of levels. As he expands the overworld, more of the old levels will come back (when I was extending the west coast, he selected a place for me to put Babord, and I'm sure he has other areas picked out for some of these older levels too).

As for me quiting, it may only be temporary, as I have a job interview lined up next week.

Minoc
12-22-2005, 06:13 PM
Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.
But not any of the regular-style servers.

Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.
New players will eventually leave as well.
In fact, players that've been playing for four-five years are more likely to keep playing in the next 2 years than ones who started playing one-two years ago.

Minoc
12-22-2005, 06:23 PM
LoLoL... My turn around for Classic is from 4 years of little progress, to lots of progress.
4 years of little progress? Classic has been changed dramaticly between 2001 and 2003.
It doesn't matter anyway, as everything has been erased.

Polo
12-22-2005, 07:27 PM
As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script.
The problem is that the hit detection is actually quite good, but because it occurs at the server, lag works differently than before. People are complaining because they can't use lag as an advantage anymore, or because thier lag makes the detection seem funny.

jake13jake
12-22-2005, 09:52 PM
The problem is that the hit detection is actually quite good, but because it occurs at the server, lag works differently than before. People are complaining because they can't use lag as an advantage anymore, or because thier lag makes the detection seem funny.
Actually, one way you could improve it is by doing triggeraction for the beginning and the end of the sword instead of just the beginning. Explosions work well, and projectiles... let's just make our own projectile system with v4.

Tyhm
12-22-2005, 10:38 PM
It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.

Luda
12-22-2005, 11:15 PM
can we make arrows stick to walls for about 5 seconds? :) I would try to make some neat looking graphics.

Lyndzey
12-23-2005, 01:09 AM
It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.

Come back :(

Polo
12-23-2005, 01:31 AM
It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.
You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside. :\

nikomi946
12-23-2005, 05:19 AM
First rule of marketing, bad publicity is better than no publicity. I'd like to thank you all for steadily increasing playercount from as low as 0 up to 35 to 60 with this thread.

jake13jake
12-23-2005, 12:05 PM
You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside. :\
According to the newfeatures.txt I read, the shoot function triggers the clients and then the movement on each of the clients is the movement is controlled individually by the clients. In essence, the only difference between I clientside arrow and a serverside arrow is that everyone will see the arrow in the proper starting location. If there is a clientside object in front of the player, the arrow will stop at the object rather than hitting the player. If another player was on the same position as the other without seeing that same clientside object, that player would be hit by the arrow.

So in all senses, it's pointless to say that the only way to shoot arrows securely is to use the shoot command serverside. We could always make a new shoot command that does the same thing, but recognizes only objects instead of walls, like the clientside shoot(@arrowtype) commands do. The only thing we wouldn't be able to. So, when you trigger the client, all you'd need to do is send x,y,dx/.05,dy/.05,owner,image... whatever you'd need it to send.

So Storm, how about redoing the projectile system?

Add: In any sense, for stuff with irregular movement, we could make different movement parameter types that would call a class that defines the path for the type of movement

As for the structures I thought of that would put damage leaps and bounds beyond where it is now, try to remind me the next time you have time.

Euhh.. also remind me to ask you about level links in quests.

Tyhm
12-23-2005, 12:53 PM
Come back :(
As much as I'd love to oblige, it's murder on my social life - I so much as log on, find myself inexorably romantically tied to one Graalian of my past or another, fritter away roundabout two years waiting for it to bloom and eventually realize everyone's laughing at me.
You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside. :\
I always thought that was humorous. This is a bit tricky to code, but try and keep up on the concept:
Tyhm enters a room.
From 30.5,30, facing 0, he fires an Arrow at server time index 12345600. This checks the next likely wall (let's say at y=10) and sets the server string for it.
Every client then recieves "30.5,30,0,12345600,10" and extrapolates:
30.5,29,123456001;
30.5,28,123456002;
30.5,27,123456003;
30.5,26,123456004;
and so on until it hits the wall. Every client sees the arrow flying and, if they intercept it, they take the damage.
The tricky bit is if a client is hit, that changes when the arrow hit a wall and you have to tell everyone in the room not to worry about that projectile anymore. Further, it makes octoballs a little tricky (but not much: dir*90 gives you the angle clockwise from N, so we could just store it all that way), and rooms that spam Way Too Many Projectiles get complicated...but maybe not too complicated. Major complication - you still have to trust the clients to recieve their damage, much in the same way you have to trust the clients to tell the truth about what walls they've walked through. Possible solution - hit the client occasionally to keep it honest. With blanks, maybe, I dunno, tell the client it's about to be shot and see if it accepts it and reports back with damage, then heal it and let it be. Maybe that'd be a GP tool, the Inescapable Arrow that Definitely Hits Any Player That Isn't Cheating And Jails Any Player That It Somehow Misses. I dunno, it all got too complicated for me a long time ago.

Anyone watching - this is why Classic's taking so long, it's not as easy as "Just upload the old levels, OMG!", everything needs to be coded for serverside compatibility. If you don't like it, Stefan's the man to talk to, he's the one who implemented the security that effectively ended good old simplified (if painfully buggy and easily exploited) clientside scripting.

Still don't see why signs ever became serverside...

jake13jake
12-23-2005, 01:11 PM
Still don't see why signs ever became serverside...
Well, I've been told because they can display variables, but so can <graalmsg>
It would be better if you could just script predefined level objects without using NPCs. Like, some kind of script access per server of how the .nw syntax is read. It's easier to browse through a level in wordpad that way and edit things manually. Tyhm, I don't know why level links aren't controled by the NPC Server.

it would be cool if you could manipulate syntax to accept classes you've made for baddies that pass parameters to the baddy script, or any custom syntax. It would really improve the readability of the level file.

MYBADDY params
line1...
line2...
line3...
MYBADDYEND

KEYDOOR x y ID

ADD: Although Tyhm, writing a script to replace the sign, baddy, and link syntaxes with NPCs would be quite easy. Could do it in Java, don't know enough of the C++ library to be do it in C++ though, which I would prefer.

Polo
12-23-2005, 02:01 PM
...Interpolation Stuff...
I had considered somthing like this before, but when players are laggy, then multiple people would get hit, or people would appear to be cheating. For example, one person gets hit on thier screen, but they are laggy, before they can tell the server to quash the arrow, it hits 3 more people.

jake13jake
12-23-2005, 02:04 PM
I had considered somthing like this before, but when players are laggy, then multiple people would get hit, or people would appear to be cheating. For example, one person gets hit on thier screen, but they are laggy, before they can tell the server to quash the arrow, it hits 3 more people.
Storm, did you read my post? The clients destroy the arrows -_-.

Tyhm
12-24-2005, 05:27 AM
Storm, did you read my post? The clients destroy the arrows -_-.

I don't see the connection.
And he has a point (I think I touched on this) - it ain't perfect. But that's lag. If an arrow goes through one guy to three others once in a while, euh. I'm more concerned with how we have to trust the player to be honest about getting hit.

DarkCloud_PK
12-24-2005, 09:36 AM
Pish, like I need your permission. I'm an Emeritus, by my own regulations I can return whenever I feel like it. ;) (But I wouldn't do that to you, so don't sweat it)

Excellent, I'm returning to FAQ/Special Ops post haste on this note. :whatever:

jake13jake
12-24-2005, 01:14 PM
I don't see the connection.
And he has a point (I think I touched on this) - it ain't perfect. But that's lag. If an arrow goes through one guy to three others once in a while, euh. I'm more concerned with how we have to trust the player to be honest about getting hit.
From the 2002 newfeatures.txt file:
"Projectiles are easy to use and don't take a lot of bandwidth because only the shooting of the projectile needs to be sent, the movement is calculated on the different computers."

In all cases, you can't trust movement scripts. You can, however, determine whether the packets being sent back to the server by a player make any sense. Let's say on one client, the projectile hits a fellow player. That client can then tell the server that the player was hit, as well as a bunch of other clients. If the majority clients say the player was hit, but the player never gets hit, you can just echo it to RC, "player not hit by arrow." Then again, there's the possibility that the player had a clientside object blocking the arrow from hitting him/her. In any case, there's no way of making it perfect, but you can perform checks for anything that might be out of place.

Yea, and Tyhm, doing arrows in the way you described would not leave room for a clientside object blocking the player from the arrow.

Tyhm
12-25-2005, 01:41 AM
Then clientside objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows. Or perhaps more to the point, objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows on clientside. If a permanent or immovable barrier is put up, it ought to tell the server about itself; if a player has a shield of some sort, he was still "hit" by the arrow, it just did no damage nor did it hinder him, and such ought be accounted for.

But I digress - the point is, these growing pains are felt on every server as it develops unnecessarily. G2K1 had these problems, and what have we learned from their toil? Zilch. Why?

jake13jake
12-25-2005, 05:53 AM
Then clientside objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows. Or perhaps more to the point, objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows on clientside. If a permanent or immovable barrier is put up, it ought to tell the server about itself; if a player has a shield of some sort, he was still "hit" by the arrow, it just did no damage nor did it hinder him, and such ought be accounted for.

But I digress - the point is, these growing pains are felt on every server as it develops unnecessarily. G2K1 had these problems, and what have we learned from their toil? Zilch. Why?
Shields are controlled by the player's direction, and the player's direction can be changed directly clientside... thus it's flawed. Permanent/immovable barriers are generally not the case for clientside objects that might block the player from getting hit. I'm just trying to demonstrate how it would always be flawed no matter what way you did it.

Tyhm
12-25-2005, 09:38 AM
Sure. It's just a question of finding the least flawed or most acceptable solution. But my point is that other servers have coded systems that work, and the writers (particularly Stefan-like ones) would probably be willing to share their wealth of knowledge if there was a database/distro/library, but there isn't.

jake13jake
12-25-2005, 10:15 AM
Sure. It's just a question of finding the least flawed or most acceptable solution. But my point is that other servers have coded systems that work, and the writers (particularly Stefan-like ones) would probably be willing to share their wealth of knowledge if there was a database/distro/library, but there isn't.
???
My control_movement and a few other scripts of mine are at graal.net...

Tyhm
12-25-2005, 11:08 PM
But are the arrow scripts and so forth from G2K1?
One would think that given Classic's lofty position it would have been possible for someone like myself to get a hold of them back when the conversion first started but noo...

jake13jake
12-26-2005, 04:39 PM
Classic News: Once v2 is disabled, we'll have beer w/ drunk movement again. It's my personal replication of the old drunk movement, but using my control_movement it doesn't take you through walls.

Master Storm uploaded Jay's House, and I uploaded the Babord Floating House. Both have been moved to Graal City, north of the river take a right after the bridge.

MoD Fort was put up, and more recently the flag was put up (I'll probably script today). I was rather shocked that when I massed for ideas of how I should script it, there was a major disinterest in the idea of guild warring (which shouldn't have surprised me with the way global guilds are). I decided that this is just one way that Graal's social environment has changed, and has led me to propose an eventual move to support only local guilds (haven't talked to Storm about it yet, but it wouldn't be smart to do it immediately anyway). Because of this, I will probably just script it the way it used to be.

The first major quest is nearing completion. The only room that needs to be made is the boss room. Other than that, there's only one non-security related script left to be made within the quest.

Exodus has been working on expanding the overworld into a continent. The biggest problem he's encountered, to my knowledge, is correcting the mountain's proportions.

Seize (who was temporarily assigned Nimda Island), is now the seventh person (EDIT: well, eighth actually) I've assigned to create the Gnome Caves, will hopefully create the Gnome Caves.

The person assigned the Kull's Castle Interior so long ago simply abandoned it with like three rooms. So I'm going to reassign it to Racil (Who was temporarily assigned the desert island) the next time I encounter him online.

To Storm:
I suppose I can contact you this way.
My new movement system is almost done (I figure you will help with this and implement it). It doesn't take too long, like I said, don't know why you've been taking so long.

A few things:
- (nevermind, used player.ani == client.walk_gani) system_gani still needs to turn off system_action in certain cases. Unless you want to send precedence exceptions in parameters, this will probably remove grab/pull while in beds
- (nevermind, done) system_keys still needs to somehow interact with system_action to grab something (could have done it in the action system, but it made more sense to put it in the keys system). It also somehow hates me when using the movement handling vars.
- (nevermind, done) want to eliminate all -1s from the internal movement system handling (for communicating.
- (nevermind, done) side moving/wall sliding whatever you want to call it and you say it's easy to script needs to be done (since you say it's easy I'll leave it to you cuz I just don't get it).
-Some things need to interact with the damage system

*COUGH* I guess it's done; Now I leave you triggeractions and key handling revision. God, I hope you use this integrable, completed movement system. O DARN, wait a minute, I didn't do jumping either.

Luda
12-27-2005, 05:43 AM
Will Avalon or Babord be coming back at all?

maximus_asinus
12-27-2005, 06:01 AM
Will Avalon or Babord be coming back at all?
I think he has already stated that it would.

Minoc
12-27-2005, 07:13 AM
I think he has already stated that it would.
He stated Avalon wouldn't.

Luda
12-27-2005, 09:58 AM
He stated Avalon wouldn't.
:(
oh man Avalon was wicked !pissed!

jake13jake
12-27-2005, 03:15 PM
Babord is coming back but smaller, Avalon may be coming back eventually

Tyhm
12-27-2005, 04:05 PM
I should express consternation or outrage, but Babord was a goofy little hamlet anyway. "Build a city, Tim," said Ragnarok, "something with a port to fit on the west coast here so I can connect to Avalon through it."
"Okay," said Tim, "I'll see what I can do," and he went looking for playerhouses that were up to code. Finding none smaller than the allotted 9 overworld levels (seriously. Everyone had a guild castle), he made a bunch himself, stapled them together in the old Classic tradition, and thumbtacked them onto the overworld, and so Babord (look it up, it's french for Port, as in Left) was born.

jake13jake
12-27-2005, 04:17 PM
I should express consternation or outrage, but Babord was a goofy little hamlet anyway. "Build a city, Tim," said Ragnarok, "something with a port to fit on the west coast here so I can connect to Avalon through it."
"Okay," said Tim, "I'll see what I can do," and he went looking for playerhouses that were up to code. Finding none smaller than the allotted 9 overworld levels (seriously. Everyone had a guild castle), he made a bunch himself, stapled them together in the old Classic tradition, and thumbtacked them onto the overworld, and so Babord (look it up, it's french for Port, as in Left) was born.
Yea... lol, I'm putting Avalon on the east if anywhere, like as a river delta.

Deophite18
12-28-2005, 01:38 AM
So will bombs and arrows EVER be fixed. Its impossible to have hardocore (NPC) spar tournies now since they are different. And by different i meen you can no longer hold left and right arrow keys and shoot them rapidly while running upward or you cant shoot them rapidly any other way. Its like your guy pauses a second after you shoot so you cant run up and inch and shoot another directly afterwards. You can still lay bombs very rapidly going in different directions but when you throw them they sort of teleport backwards a little bit after they land which causes problems.

jake13jake
12-28-2005, 04:15 AM
Why the heck do I bother talking to Tyhm???!??!?!?! He DENIED me the T-Shirt I won for the Graalympics!!!!

Tyhm
12-28-2005, 04:29 AM
I'm sure you had it coming.

jake13jake
12-28-2005, 06:32 AM
can you send me it late? I'll wear it to all my classes and then everyone will start playing graal! You shouldn't deny free advertising!

Tyhm
12-28-2005, 01:01 PM
's up to Unixmad now.

jake13jake
12-28-2005, 05:50 PM
's up to Unixmad now.
But Unixmad is the one that globally banned me for having (maybeIshouldntPutTheAddress).gov in my forum sig!!!!!!

Deophite18
12-28-2005, 11:55 PM
But Unixmad is the one that globally banned me for having (maybeIshouldntPutTheAddress).gov in my forum sig!!!!!!


If this is classic discussion, then answer my question. Massokre or Storm.

jake13jake
12-29-2005, 02:33 AM
If this is classic discussion, then answer my question. Massokre or Storm.
I want to. Don't know if Storm would be up to it. Either way, there are a few other things higher up on the priority list (movement, continentalizing the overworld, getting playerhouses on the overworld, getting the first 3 quests or so done, etc).

I think all the bugs with throwing things and shooting arrows are because of the shoot function based system. In that case we'd need to shoot our own projectile system. We'd want to do a little bit of testing with how the shoot function works though, to make sure we don't leave any security holes that the shoot function would eliminate.

Polo
12-29-2005, 05:20 PM
So will bombs and arrows EVER be fixed. Its impossible to have hardocore (NPC) spar tournies now since they are different. And by different i meen you can no longer hold left and right arrow keys and shoot them rapidly while running upward or you cant shoot them rapidly any other way. Its like your guy pauses a second after you shoot so you cant run up and inch and shoot another directly afterwards. You can still lay bombs very rapidly going in different directions but when you throw them they sort of teleport backwards a little bit after they land which causes problems.
Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.:)

jake13jake
12-29-2005, 07:00 PM
Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.:)
It exists in any carryobject... also, you have the sprite defs wrong. You should add an onActionLift event handler and put the lifting stuff internal to make them compatible to my movement. Also, you should make liftEnable() and liftDisable() functions, along with pushEnable() and pushDisable() and an onActionPush/onActionPull in the push/pull blocks.

Deophite18
12-29-2005, 07:59 PM
Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.:)


Go to any other server, fire an arrow and you are able to tun up and fire another almost directly afterwards. You cant do that on classic anymore like i said its like your character pauses for a second preventing you from doing it and it often causes people who are shootuing arrows to get hit by swords. Because if i shot an arrow it leaves an small window for someone to walk up and hit me while i am unable to move. That isnt how its supposed to be.

jake13jake
12-29-2005, 08:51 PM
well, we learned a few things about shoot.
1. The hit detection and wall detection is serverside
2. The movement of the arrow is determined clientside.

What does this do?
If it doesn't detect a wall clientside, but does serverside, the arrow will keep moving clientside, but without hit detection. This is what's creating those bugs. Unfortunately, we can't get rid of the projectile's serverside wall detection, and the server won't tell the clients to kill the image arrow when it hits something. Probably something Stefan himself would need to work on unless he tells us how it works, but Storm has just stated that there's absolutely no way he's going to move away from using shoot, so the person to bug about it would have to be stefan, who unfortunately has a million other things he has to do.

LoL, I just found another bug in storm's movement.

Deophite18
12-29-2005, 09:12 PM
Ok nevermind, after showing him the difference in bows between servers Master Storm was able to fix them to how they should be. Also bombs seem to be working again, they no longer warp bt they still cant go over bushes :(

jake13jake
12-31-2005, 07:01 AM
hmmmm... I just had an idea... Storm, would it fix arrows if we messed with terrain z values?

The only way of getting it to miss walls is to set it's z to 4, and then it won't hit the player, so you set the player's z to 4. Then you have a player that's really high, so you'd have to hideplayer and change the way to draw the player and give hugely different offset coordinates in the movement system, give all objects a z of 4, unless you don't the arrow to hit it (ex. bushes). But wait, one big flaw in this, the offset would make the players and everything bounce off of eachother in the wrong places.

Polo
12-31-2005, 11:17 AM
hmmmm... I just had an idea... Storm, would it fix arrows if we messed with terrain z values?

The only way of getting it to miss walls is to set it's z to 4, and then it won't hit the player, so you set the player's z to 4. Then you have a player that's really high, so you'd have to hideplayer and change the way to draw the player and give hugely different offset coordinates in the movement system, give all objects a z of 4, unless you don't the arrow to hit it (ex. bushes). But wait, one big flaw in this, the offset would make the players and everything bounce off of eachother in the wrong places.
And they'd appear to be floating (shadows etc :p) lol. ^^

Tyhm
12-31-2005, 01:36 PM
Why 4? Oughtn't 1 or not 1 suffice?
Perhaps all the walls (including players) are 1, all the floor (including fences) are either 0 or 0.5, all the pits are -1? But I know little of GScript 4 or, verily, GScript 2.

jake13jake
12-31-2005, 08:32 PM
Why 4? Oughtn't 1 or not 1 suffice?
Perhaps all the walls (including players) are 1, all the floor (including fences) are either 0 or 0.5, all the pits are -1? But I know little of GScript 4 or, verily, GScript 2.

Arrows will hit any wall or player of a z-coordinate of 0 if it's own z-coordinate is below 4 (I only tried integers). You also can't set z-coordinates below 0, or maybe it's that you can't set z-coordinates below the terrain value?

Tyhm
12-31-2005, 11:08 PM
Be nice if you could script certain walls to be not considered walls.
Then again, wouldn't that just be clever Movement? ;-)

jake13jake
01-02-2006, 11:44 AM
Be nice if you could script certain walls to be not considered walls.
Then again, wouldn't that just be clever Movement? ;-)
Of course the only hard part is that there is no ontile(x,y,w,h) or ontiletype(x,y,w,h) function, but there is an onwall2(x,y,w,h) function. Tyhm, you should tell stefan to make the prior two please, since you are more likely to have a greater influence on him. Could you also ask him to fix the god forsaken shoot function to enable a more classic-like arrow? kthx

Deophite18
01-02-2006, 11:15 PM
Ok massokre doesnt know how to fix this so maybe you do storm. During events such as CTF and Team NPC and a few others when you press Q menu yu are unable to scroll through npc's. You cannot go from using a bomb to using a bow by switching with arrow keys. Instead you have to Q menu then manually click the npc you want to switch to with your mouse. This is very annoying seeing as you it takes longer and casues you to usually get hit or to have to use the same npc. It would be great if you could figure out how to fix it.

Minoc
01-03-2006, 12:22 AM
Babord is coming back but smaller, Avalon may be coming back eventually
What about Big City, Destiny, Chaotica, Zol's Snow Town and Silmaria?

jake13jake
01-03-2006, 12:24 AM
What about Big City, Destiny, Chaotica, Zol's Snow Town and Silmaria?
Big City: no
Chaotica: no
Snow Town: not really in the same sense
Destiny: yes
Silmaria: no

James205
01-03-2006, 12:53 AM
Big City: no
Chaotica: no
Snow Town: not really in the same sense
Destiny: yes
Silmaria: no

You better bring back my brothers(kojita) firecave quest that was located in the snow town.

You better.








Seriously.

gozen
01-03-2006, 03:10 AM
i go around classic and I get lost, i don't recognize any of the playerhouses or building
most personal, you took down the SM Guildhouse. :(

jake13jake
01-03-2006, 03:49 AM
You better bring back my brothers(kojita) firecave quest that was located in the snow town.

I'm too newbie to remember any firecave quest in snow town.

Deophite18
01-03-2006, 05:34 AM
You better bring back my brothers(kojita) firecave quest that was located in the snow town.

You better.




That quest was awesome, that was the one with the big flying fire snake thingy wasnt it?



Seriously.



That quest was awesome, that was the one with the big flying fire snake thingy wasnt it?

Nightmareangel
01-03-2006, 07:08 AM
Big City: no
Chaotica: no
Snow Town: not really in the same sense
Destiny: yes
Silmaria: no

This even saddens Nighty. :*(

jake13jake
01-03-2006, 07:18 AM
That quest was awesome, that was the one with the big flying fire snake thingy wasnt it?

Yea James, if you have the levels and the power to convert it, I might use it if they're any good. Great quests on Graal is a rarity.


This even saddens Nighty. :*(


Night... first, would you really miss Chaotica? I can understand Silmaria to a certain extent. Snow Town was already changed to begin with. Big City was just a giant square, save for the volcano, but Graal will still have a volcano island. You have to explain things for me to see your point, otherwise I can't do anything about it.

gozen
01-03-2006, 07:33 AM
i still miss all them :(

Minoc
01-03-2006, 07:46 AM
Yea James, if you have the levels and the power to convert it, I might use it if they're any good.
Isn't that your job?

gozen
01-03-2006, 07:51 AM
Isn't that your job?
probably, but who is counting?