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SayianOozaru
06-26-2005, 02:43 AM
the title explains it all XD, already talked to stefan about it, and he liked the idea. Hope you guys like the GFX, and if you don't, plz tell me what i need to fix, thanks :)

Admins
06-26-2005, 05:34 AM
Ah its more a mine not a grenade?

SayianOozaru
06-26-2005, 07:12 AM
k, fixed it:) hope you guys like it :)

Curt1zzle
06-26-2005, 10:03 AM
Just a suggestion, but try making some diaganol angles? So that it has 8 instead of 4. Will help create a much neater gani.

Edit: Actually, match it to the pipebombs. Forgot about those...

juice188
06-26-2005, 01:21 PM
looks good, but there better not be actually size cause thats huge for a grenade!

VulcanP2P
06-26-2005, 05:40 PM
Resized it. Still a bit big though, I think.

xAndrewx
06-26-2005, 10:03 PM
Looks better smaller.

haunter
06-27-2005, 02:57 AM
Stop making one sprite and just using the 'rotate' function to turn it around 4 ways, and say it's "done".

One of the spirtes are done, but the other 3 aren't. There's such a thing as perspective, and light. You have to re-arrange the highlights and shadows on the object, maybe even re-draw some parts.

For example, I noticed on one gun you made, there was a sight, or ammo feed on the side of the gun. Both left and right sprites looked the same when in relality one should've been different. You should've had the sight/feeder partly hidden by the main body of the gun in one of the sprites. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Hrm, maybe this will help to explain better. I quickly drew up this gun-shaped example (attached image). Take note of the red canisters and the the shading of the main blue part. The sprites on the left are from when I made one direction, then used the "Flip Horizontal" feature in Photoshop to rotate it to face right. This is WRONG!

On the right are the sprites that are made correctly. I made the main shape, then shaded each shape seperately, then drew on the red canisters afterwards to ensure they were shown in the right perspective. This is right!

I hope this helped a bit.

P.s. This post was directed at the Saiyan fellow.

I understand your image is a bomb. You don't understand the concept of an example do you? Just because my image is of a gun-shaped thing and yours is of a bomb doesn't stop your image from being shaded wrong.

Edit:

Maybe this image will make what I'm trying to explain a bit more clear. This is a green ball on a brown handle that I drew as an example. The flashlight with the arrow indicates the direction of the light source.

http://img245.echo.cx/img245/5662/marraca9dc.gif

See how the light source changes on the left example, and the highlight moves? Just like yours! This isn't correct. Now on the right, notice how the light source stays the same? This is correct.

P.P.S. My gun example is not flawed, Saiyan. You just cant see very well. The red things do stick out the top in all frames, the gun is just a big rectangle, so it sort of looks like it's not sticking out the top... Notice the line about a third of the way down the gun? that's where the top meets the side. Stop thinking you're such hot ****, you're not going to learn anything, or improve if you're too haughty to listen to good advice.

Unless you're talking about the actual 3 pixels. In which case, you're just a spoiled prat, and don't deserve any help. All you deserve is leading the rest of your life as a go-nowhere graphics artist with mediocre talent, and no hope of improvement.

SayianOozaru
06-27-2005, 03:37 AM
it's a bomb...

VulcanP2P
06-27-2005, 03:38 AM
I know what perspective is, I was just resizing it to a size I thought fit.

SayianOozaru
06-27-2005, 04:24 AM
i no, i'm talkin about haunter's post, he's trying to correct people when his gun isn't even right XD on the top one (to the right) the gun there has 3 red dots stickin outta the top of the gun, but in the bottom one (to the right) the 3 dots end before the top of the gun, haunter, if you're going to try to correct the guns, at least do it right...

on another note, i said it's just a bomb, because all you do is rotate the bomb, unless you feel like re-drawing the bomb over and over.....i thought the bomb was the right size...it should be around the same size as the frag grenade...


and again on yet, another note, i've done what you wanted with the grenade which one do you like the most?

SayianOozaru
06-27-2005, 07:14 AM
no you did it wrong, and you also mirrored it, after you made that long speach, you did what you told us not to do....all you did was add the buttons or w/e.and if you look at the Zone style and stop tryin to be a smartass, all the weapons are just mirrored/fliped, and the grenades are just rotated, so until it changes on Zone, don't expect people to change it. and even if i do stay as a medeocor artist, remember i'll always be better than you :)

Luciano
06-27-2005, 09:30 AM
no you did it wrong, and you also mirrored it, after you made that long speach, you did what you told us not to do....all you did was add the buttons or w/e.and if you look at the Zone style and stop tryin to be a smartass, all the weapons are just mirrored/fliped, and the grenades are just rotated, so until it changes on Zone, don't expect people to change it. and even if i do stay as a medeocor artist, remember i'll always be better than you :)
You are one stupid ****. Stay as an inbred.

Crono
06-27-2005, 03:54 PM
Sayien look at your grenade and look how it has a different light source on each sprite. He wants you to correct that.

xAndrewx
06-27-2005, 04:20 PM
Haunter, your image doesn't make any sense either.

haunter
06-27-2005, 06:28 PM
no you did it wrong, and you also mirrored it, after you made that long speach, you did what you told us not to do....all you did was add the buttons or w/e.and if you look at the Zone style and stop tryin to be a smartass, all the weapons are just mirrored/fliped, and the grenades are just rotated, so until it changes on Zone, don't expect people to change it. and even if i do stay as a medeocor artist, remember i'll always be better than you :)

Arg, I didn't put the canisters in the wrong place, they're just right. It's basic shape is a box. Maybe you would understand if I drew it isometrically to clarify. Here. (http://img104.echo.cx/img104/8012/isoexample13rd.gif)

Hmm... No, no I didn't mirror it like you do. I mirrored the basic shape of the blue part, yes, but I re-shaded it to account for the light-source. As for the few red pixels on the top of that one frame, that's more comparable to a typo, unintentional, and un-noticed. Your errors however are more comparable to a grammar, puncuation or spelling errors... They're intentional, you just don't know any better.

Maybe you could spend your time looking at the examples for what they're meant to be. Examples. I don't expect these to be used for anything but. That's why they're square, and plain. Had I chose to use this "gun" image for something, I would go back and fix those five or so red pixels... Just like you should go back and fix your lighting errors.

If Zone is just flipping and rotating their graphics without editing for perspective or lighting, they're doing it wrong... And it's not going to change unless people start doing something about it, and maybe that should start with you. Hell, some of the graphics already on Zone should probably be re-looked at to make sure they're shaded correctly. If Zone wants to follow along with any sort of logic at all, it should start by following the assumption that "Light moves in straight lines." You just don't **** with physics like that.

Fixing the graphics so they're drawn and shaded correctly will give Zone a more professional feel. If you just follow along like a sheep and keep making graphics the wrong way, just because everyone else does, nothing is ever going to improve.

As for being an better artist than me...

A) You definatly could be, but you don't know that for sure. You're welcome to think that though, it does no harm to me.

B) That's a pretty sorry goal to strive for... "When I grow up I want to be a better artist than some random guy I met on the forums of an MMORPG!"

Stop being so bloody arrogant. It's not going to get you anywhere in life. Stop and realize that you have alot to learn, as do most people. Just because someone doesn't flash graphics around all over the place doesn't mean they can't teach you a helpful thing or two about art...

Andrew: Which image are you talking about? What doesn't make sense?

SayianOozaru
06-27-2005, 11:33 PM
sry everyone :( he mad me really mad :( all i did was say that he's trying to correct everyone but his gun is mirrored, and those things don't stick out that far above the gun, like it does on the top one....then he went and tried to make me look bad :( so i got pissed,......i no what he wants me to fix,.....but he coulda said it in a better way, than sayin i'm a medeocur artist or w/e and the thing with Zone, if you look at everygrenade, it's all just rotated, and every gun is just mirrored....and yes only the outlined is mirrored, but i got confused with the shading, cause it is the exact same shading as the one above...

haunter
06-28-2005, 03:26 AM
sry everyone :( he mad me really mad :( all i did was say that he's trying to correct everyone but his gun is mirrored, and those things don't stick out that far above the gun, like it does on the top one....then he went and tried to make me look bad :( so i got pissed,......i no what he wants me to fix,.....but he coulda said it in a better way, than sayin i'm a medeocur artist or w/e and the thing with Zone, if you look at everygrenade, it's all just rotated, and every gun is just mirrored....and yes only the outlined is mirrored, but i got confused with the shading, cause it is the exact same shading as the one above...

For the last time. My "gun" isn't mirrored like yours are. Didn't you look at the second image of the gun I posted showing how the light source stays the same in each frame? I'll post it again, below. The shape is mirrored, yes, but that's what should be done... the shading however, should not be mirrored. The shading on my "gun" isn't mirrored.

Those red canister things do stick out enough on the top of "gun", it's the perspective on the box-shape that's confusing you. Refer to the isometric view in the image below.

http://img104.echo.cx/img104/8012/isoexample13rd.gif

I wasn't trying to make you look bad, you were being a stubborn brat. I was nice... I was nice until you started trying to act high and mighty by saying my examples were bad. The examples that I went out of my way to make to try and help someone (Namely, YOU) improve their spriting skills. You got offended that someone would question your graphic abilities and decided to bite rather than being grateful for the gesture and learning something.

I wasn't being mean when I called you a mediocre artist. I was speaking the truth. If I wanted to be mean I would've said you're graphics are awful. But they're not, they're mediocre. Learn to accept that you're not the hottest thing since sliced bread. You're no Dali, buddy... There's room for you to improve, and I obviously thought you could fill that room, seeing as I took the time to try and help you along the way.

Just because Zone's graphics have messed up light source shading doesn't mean you should be able to get away with messed up light source graphics. You should be learning how to correctly shade graphics on account of light source and change Zone for the better by making sure your graphics are shaded correctly, and maybe even redoing some existing Zone graphics so they're correct.

The set of "guns" on the left have different shading from the set on the right. The "guns" on the left have been completely mirrored, shading and all. This moves the apparent lightsource as well. That's a no-no. The "guns" on the right don't have mirrored shading, giving the appearance of a static (static = stays in the same place) light source.

P.S. I suggest posting your graphics in the Graphic Design Section (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9) of the forums before posting them here. There are alot more artists there that can help you refine and perfect your graphics... They will more than likely spot a thing or two about your grpahic that you may have missed, and maybe even teach you something useful. I know I've learned some good stuff from a few people that frequent that section.

SayianOozaru
06-28-2005, 07:43 AM
sry everyone :( he mad me really mad :( all i did was say that he's trying to correct everyone but his gun is mirrored, and those things don't stick out that far above the gun, like it does on the top one....then he went and tried to make me look bad :( so i got pissed,......i no what he wants me to fix,.....but he coulda said it in a better way, than sayin i'm a medeocur artist or w/e and the thing with Zone, if you look at everygrenade, it's all just rotated, and every gun is just mirrored....and yes only the outlined is mirrored, but i got confused with the shading, cause it is the exact same shading as the one above...


read the last sentence..it says only the outline was mirrored, and the shading was done exactly alike, and that threw me off, and here you go again, pissin me off, i tried to make peace, but aparently, you don't want peace, so **** off, and delete your posts, seeing as how they have nothing to relate with the thread.

and take a look at these guns and grenades, tell me which ones aren't mirrored/rotated. I've tried explaining this to you, All of Zone's weapons and grenades, are mirrored or rotated, please stop making a big issue of this. i'm just trying to tell you, for Zone, you mirror/rotate the weapon or bomb.

AlexH
06-28-2005, 01:38 PM
He's not denying that the graphics on Zone are rotated. What he's saying is that it's more accurate to keep the light source the same, meaning the shading will be different for each direction.

If anything by keeping the light source the same may not be the way Zone does it but there is no doubt it will help you in any future graphics you make to make them seem more realistic and professional.

Crono
06-28-2005, 04:02 PM
All of Zone's weapons and grenades, are mirrored or rotated

So if the manager of the server you work on steals other people's work its ok for the development team to do the same?

If I jump off a 50 foot building it makes it ok for my kids to do it too?

Just because Zone's weapons/whatever are mirrored and rotated doesn't mean your GFX should be as well. The syringe itself looks retarded because when its facing down the liquid is still at the top.

haunter
06-28-2005, 07:13 PM
read the last sentence..it says only the outline was mirrored, and the shading was done exactly alike, and that threw me off,

Maybe you shouldn't contradict yourself in single posts... In your first few lines you went on about mirroring as if I mirrored the shading as well. I was trying to explain what sort of "mirroring" was right, and what sort was wrong.

and here you go again, pissin me off,
That's not my fault. I'm not doing anything mean, or anything to intentionally piss you off, you're just being haughty.

i tried to make peace, but aparently, you don't want peace, so **** off, and delete your posts, seeing as how they have nothing to relate with the thread.

I was being peaceful to begin with. You're the one that got upset. All I was doing was trying to help you improve your graphics... I will not '**** off', nor will I delete my posts. They have as much a right to be in this thread as your posts do. They have everything to do with the thread topic. You posted a graphic, I noticed a flaw, and attempted to help you mend that flaw. Simple.

and take a look at these guns and grenades, tell me which ones aren't mirrored/rotated. I've tried explaining this to you, All of Zone's weapons and grenades, are mirrored or rotated, please stop making a big issue of this. i'm just trying to tell you, for Zone, you mirror/rotate the weapon or bomb.

Zone is wrong. See Crono's and Alex's posts.

SayianOozaru
06-28-2005, 11:56 PM
OMFG your not posting about the thread please stop, and yes, if it's to fix the Zone style, they'll be rotated/mirrored, now please DROP IT!

haunter
06-29-2005, 06:04 AM
OMFG your not posting about the thread please stop, and yes, if it's to fix the Zone style, they'll be rotated/mirrored, now please DROP IT!

My post was indeed about the thread. Perhaps not exactly on the same topic as the starting post was about... But threads have a tendancy to change subject... Drift if you will.

Well, I'm glad you've learned something. (I think you have... Unless I just suck at reading. 0.o) I hope you can change Zone for the better and make it look a bit prettier. Good luck. :)

SayianOozaru
06-29-2005, 07:38 AM
thank you, this got old...3 days of fighting over a stupid little grenade....

Splke
06-29-2005, 08:35 AM
thank you, this got old...3 days of fighting over a stupid little grenade....

it's not over the grenade. This thread just hosted his comments. his comments are right, and they are about your overall work. You do one angle, rotate it and call it done. It's called shabby, it's not called "zone style".

Perspective gets messed up, and on higher detailed guns the light source will end up being wrong. If you take a second to just read what he's saying, and really think about it, then goto some GFX and look at what he's saying you'd notice he's right.

SayianOozaru
06-29-2005, 09:49 AM
and you'll notice i'm right in saying it's Zone's style, if you'd like i'll post all the weapons...to show you, that all of them are mirrored/ rotated, and how come you guys are only bringing this up with me? do you got somethin against me or somethin? i don't no any one of you, so that can't be it...so tell me why your only bringing this up now, and you didn't bring it up awhile ago????? u just went and brought this stupid conversation up....

nm.....all the Zone weapons, tell me which ones aren't mirrored/rotated, if doing so is Shabby, then Zone is "Shabby"...now, please lets end this converstaion, it's retarded.

(btw. only sniper, mortar, and the ice cannon arent mirrored...)

Curt1zzle
06-29-2005, 09:52 AM
Some of them are rotated, others aren't. *Shrug*

A bunch of wrongs doesn't make a right. Shrug it off bud, just learn from the experience.

SayianOozaru
06-29-2005, 09:54 AM
ya i woulda...but not when it turns into a 3day+ argument :(

haunter
06-30-2005, 12:09 AM
and you'll notice i'm right in saying it's Zone's style, if you'd like i'll post all the weapons...to show you, that all of them are mirrored/ rotated,

Hrm... Yeah, you'll notice I'm right in saying that that's not a 'style', that's just sloppy work. The graphics are mostly well made... But whoever made them didn't take the time to get it all right.

how come you guys are only bringing this up with me?

I brought this up with you because I noticed that you're the one who posts the majority of graphics on this section of the board, and I noticed a few problems with your graphics... I thought you would appreciate some help in fixing them. Obviously I was wrong.

do you got somethin against me or somethin? i don't no any one of you, so that can't be it...

It's awfully silly to even consider that I have a personal vendetta against you when all I was trying to do was help you improve your graphics. It would seem like that's the exact opposite thing someone would want to do when they have a vendetta against someone else.

so tell me why your only bringing this up now, and you didn't bring it up awhile ago?????

I don't play Zone, and I never really frequented this section of the forums before a short while ago, I never took a good look at the graphics posted here, so I had no reason to bring up the flaws... I simply didn't know about them.

nm.....all the Zone weapons, tell me which ones aren't mirrored/rotated, if doing so is Shabby, then Zone is "Shabby"...now,

Yes, doing so is shabby... So yes, in a way, that makes Zone a bit shabby... In the graphical aspect at least. I know Stefan wants GraalOnline to be as professional as possible, and one of the key things to a professional looking game is professional looking graphics. It may seem like a silly, mundane thing... Many people say "No! It's not the graphics! It's the gameplay!" But what do most people do before they buy/rent a game? They look at the box art; they look on the back of the box for screenshots to see what the game might be like. It's what lure them in to try it. If it's not pretty, they won't be as interested in it as they would be in a game that has both good gameplay and good graphics.

please lets end this converstaion, it's retarded.

I don't think it needs to end... but I do agree that it's a bit retarded... In the sense that we're having this conversation a bit late. These problems really should've been discussed earlier in Zone's development.

(btw. only sniper, mortar, and the ice cannon arent mirrored...)

Yes they are.

(Note: The following explanation is not specifically directed at SayianOozaru, but at everyone who makes, or is planning to make graphics for Zone... These are the kinds of things that need fixing... And these are only a few examples. I guess it's also to anybody who just wants to learn a little something about graphics. I hope it's useful to you too.)

The sniper's left and right frames are completely mirrored... But it's not as bad for that gun because there's not enough "light source shading" to be able to notice there's something wrong. The up and down frames have been changed to fix the perspective on the sniper sight... This is good.

Same thing with the mortar, the left and right are completely mirrored but it doesn't really make a difference because there's no "light source shading"... And again, the up and down frames have been edited/made separately to account for perspective. Good. But! The mortar ammunition has a problem with light source, and a tiny problem with perspective. The light source changes on the mortar shells, and the up/down shapes are just flipped/rotated, and that makes for bad perspective.

Now the cannon... this is where a lot of problems show up. There are problems with the shape, the detail, and the 'light source' shading. (Note: Detail and shading are two different things)

Hopefully I will be able to explain all of these problems with the help of some images...

Light Source shading:

http://img106.echo.cx/img106/7804/lsexample9wb.gif

This is pretty self-explanatory... just like the other images I posted in this thread. The flashlight represents the direction of the light source. It should always be the same through out the entire image... Under the best circumstances it would probably be the same throughout the server.

Perspective and Detail Placement:

http://img275.echo.cx/img275/700/ppexample8ih.gif

This is a bit more confusing so I added numbers in the image so I could separate the explanation.


Shape:
The barrel of the cannon doesn't look round to me. I tried editing the top part of one of the frames to show what I mean. On the left is the original with a blown up version. See how the basic shape isn't circular, or symmetrical?

Now on the right is the same frame after I edited the top half. Notice how it's a more circular shape? Notice how it's more symmetrical? Perhaps the Ice Cannon isn't supposed to have a cylindrical shape... maybe it was made like it is on purpose. Either way that was something that I personally saw to be an error, so I addressed it. Next.

Detail Placement:

The most noticeable object as far as detail goes on the Ice Cannon is that small square that looks like it's some sort of metal patch... As the Cannon's direction moves from up to down, the patch's placement on the cannon seems to move too.

I've emphasized said patch with a red square, then enlarged the cannon, then brought it back to regular size and highlighted the patch in red. To the right is the basic shape of the cannon, with the patch in red. The top is the original, which is wrong; the bottom is the one I changed, which is a lot closer to being correct.

Just think about it logically... When something rotates or moves, anything that's attached to it rotates or moves with that object. Pick up something off your desk and imagine it's the thing you're drawing... In this case a pen would work well, the pocket clip could be the "metal patch". Rotate your pen in the air, and visualize how the detail will be arranged in the different directions of your graphic. Is that clear?

Perspective:

This time I noticed a problem with the Mortar ammunition... When it's going "up" you should be able to see the back of the shell... Unless you wanted to create the illusion of an arch when shooting up or down... In that case you would need a few more frames in your mortar ammo spritesheet.


I really hope that made some sense... I tend to babble a lot. If you need clarification on any part, specify which part and I'll try to explain it better.


ya i woulda...but not when it turns into a 3day+ argument :(

But you see, you didn't... Before we started "arguing", when I first tried to help you, all you did was get offended. You tried to insult me, because you thought I was trying to insult you when all I was trying to do was help you.... You thought the only reason someone would ever question the quality of your graphics was if they were trying to be mean.

You want me to just drop it, but I'm not going to. Why? Because I think you have a lot of potential. You can improve your graphics and become an exceptional artist... I also don't think it's very keen for Zone to have these kinds of problems with their graphics, so I figured trying to educate would be the best way for me to help out.

SayianOozaru
06-30-2005, 12:27 AM
no, OMFG we need to end this....seriously...and i told you, the shading was done the exact same way, and that threw me off, so i though u mirrored it, and the red things didn't look like the were above the gun, so i asked before you correct me, make sure you do urs right....

topic closed....

Splke
06-30-2005, 03:30 AM
You can't say "topic closed" , you can't close it. He's right, regardless of how many times it has been done it does not change the fact that HE IS RIGHT.

You should be happy that people have stopped telling you to "stop posting", and started to try to help you. But you aren't, you're bitter and close minded. This isn't an assualt on you, it's suggestions on how to fix your work, regardless of how "Zone" is.

If all Zone does is mirror and rotate the first gun image, then yes, Zone is shabby, Zone is ****ty, and you're just helping contribute to that cess pool.

SayianOozaru
06-30-2005, 03:32 AM
only 2 images r drawn :( side and up/down view....

Splke
06-30-2005, 03:34 AM
Why do you ignore the entirity of somebodys post and focus on something that you can answer half-wittedly? Jesus ****, I'm annoyed.

haunter
06-30-2005, 09:44 PM
Why do you ignore the entirity of somebodys post and focus on something that you can answer half-wittedly? Jesus ****, I'm annoyed.

It's because he doesn't want to admit that I was right. *shrug*... He's looking for a bit of justification on his part. I used to do that alot... I still do it quite often with my father.

SayianOozaru
06-30-2005, 11:14 PM
no, you were not right, damn you guys are really annoying me, i tried deleting this thread but i can't, how many times to i have to say it's Zone style to do GFX that way!!!! i tried doing it your way when i first started, and no one liked it like that, so i now do it "Zone"s way, now please stop this!! damn....

Splke
07-01-2005, 02:19 AM
It's an incorrect, unprofessional, and sloppy style that you are continuously helping to broaden by continuing to do GFX in this fashion.

Maybe you don't understand what we're suggesting: Fix your graphics the right way so that Zone as a WHOLE can begin to do it. Lead by example, do something right for once.