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jahngod
03-23-2005, 06:34 AM
Classic was always my favourite server, from the first time I tried Graal, back when it was all free.

Now I come back, and I see the NPC Server is up, all my items are erased...
There is only one map (??!?!?), which is small.
All the quests are gone.
Everyone has 6 hearts.

What has happened?
This server may as well just be deleted now :(

zell12
03-23-2005, 06:42 AM
MasterStorm is working on a new overworld which should be released soon. They had to use the NPC-server, it is more secure and they can run more advanced scripts with it. Just bare with them until it is completed. ^.^;

URBANLEGEND
03-23-2005, 04:11 PM
the npcs server was started 3+ years ago, and now its released still not done. Classic is pretty much dead. Storm should just release the levels pack right before the npcs server so that someone with the determination and staff power to fix it up and release it.

Malinko
03-23-2005, 04:13 PM
Hm, they had no choice but to release the NPC Server anyways.

Classic will own once it's fully done. :)

Admins
03-23-2005, 04:38 PM
The switch was not easy, but most systems are done and Storm is already working on cut scenes and such things for story telling.

Unpredlctable
03-23-2005, 06:47 PM
MasterStorm is working on a new overworld which should be released soon. ...
Heh. I'd be very surprised if it were actually released "soon". We've all heard that sort of thing before, and many a time.
Hm, they had no choice but to release the NPC Server anyways.

Classic will own once it's fully done. :)
How many players would have quit by then and given up on Classic?

Polo
03-23-2005, 06:54 PM
Yes, the Classic NPC server may have been worked on for over 3 years... but this does not mean that I had 3 years of completed stuff to work from. I had to make the decision to rework it all from scratch, which was a hard decision to make, but in the long run, is the right one. Simply 'uploading the old levels pack' is one of the major reasons I took the decision. Many old scripts dont work with NPC Server, and the ever nearing full switch to GScript2 would have on complicated things further. Classic was already too buggy, I didn't want to make that worse.

LordPatrick
03-24-2005, 09:50 PM
Indeed. I'll certainly try it again once it is done, though perhaps renaming it is in order, or something. Heh, call it New Classic! Well... heh. I'll wait. I'll keep on waiting for classic. I never gave up on it before, and I won't now, either. I think it will surpass its old self, and become greater. In time. Good luck with that, too...

maximus_asinus
03-24-2005, 11:25 PM
Yeah, I don't think Classic is a fitting name as it doesn't accurately describe the server.

jahngod
03-26-2005, 04:15 PM
How about

The server formely known as Classic. :P

Xcessive54321
03-26-2005, 04:27 PM
what do i have to do to make a level there? lol im just wondering

Minoc
03-26-2005, 04:55 PM
Yeah, I don't think Classic is a fitting name as it doesn't accurately describe the server.
Well, Storm is aiming to make the server more Classic than Tyhm's Classic. :redface:

Unpredlctable
03-26-2005, 06:28 PM
what do i have to do to make a level there? lol im just wondering
Playerhouse uploading hasn't been reintroduced yet, and probably won't for a while.

Xcessive54321
03-26-2005, 07:22 PM
o lol

Inspiration
03-27-2005, 03:48 AM
Well, Storm is aiming to make the server more Classic than Tyhm's Classic. :redface:

Then why does it have a weird ass hit detection system that is nothing like classic graal?

jake13jake
03-27-2005, 03:17 PM
Yes, the Classic NPC server may have been worked on for over 3 years... but this does not mean that I had 3 years of completed stuff to work from. I had to make the decision to rework it all from scratch, which was a hard decision to make, but in the long run, is the right one. Simply 'uploading the old levels pack' is one of the major reasons I took the decision. Many old scripts dont work with NPC Server, and the ever nearing full switch to GScript2 would have on complicated things further. Classic was already too buggy, I didn't want to make that worse.

Why is development taking so much longer when it could be done so much faster? That's my #1 question.

xXDuMajuXx
03-27-2005, 03:28 PM
Why is development taking so much longer when it could be done so much faster? That's my #1 question.

Possibley because they're putting ALOT of effort into it?

Inspiration
03-27-2005, 05:12 PM
Possibley because they're putting ALOT of effort into it?

That makes no sense.

Minoc
03-27-2005, 06:14 PM
Then why does it have a weird ass hit detection system that is nothing like classic graal?
I don't know.
But I was thinking more classic levels-wise.

syltburk
03-27-2005, 08:48 PM
Classic wont be classic becuz the players aren't with us anymore... Its the players that made classic, not the server itself.

Inspiration
03-27-2005, 08:54 PM
Classic wont be classic becuz the players aren't with us anymore... Its the players that made classic, not the server itself.

But old players can not even feel nostalgia there any longer, because it has been torn apart so badly.

Minoc
03-27-2005, 10:22 PM
Classic wont be classic becuz the players aren't with us anymore... Its the players that made classic, not the server itself.
Yeah, but many of these players quit because Classic changed.

maximus_asinus
03-27-2005, 10:29 PM
Yeah, but many of these players quit because Classic changed.
I quit because of the changes that Storm decided to intoduce. I have noticed others quiting aswell.

Akoalin
03-27-2005, 10:35 PM
Then why does it have a weird ass hit detection system that is nothing like classic graal?
Because Storm prefers to rescript everything rather than use the "Classic" scripts.

Why remove non-NPC Server servers anyway? Classic was working fine before the NPC Server.

Minoc
03-27-2005, 10:43 PM
Why remove non-NPC Server servers anyway? Classic was working fine before the NPC Server.
Ask Stefan, it wasn't Storm's decision.

Polo
03-27-2005, 11:58 PM
Then why does it have a weird ass hit detection system that is nothing like classic graal?

Because theres no other choice. :\ :whatever: x_x

Answering that question has become rather tedious and tiresome now.

-Ramirez-
03-28-2005, 12:10 AM
Because theres no other choice.
...?

maximus_asinus
03-28-2005, 12:25 AM
Because theres no other choice. :\ :whatever: x_x

Answering that question has become rather tedious and tiresome now.
and we are tired of saying, no, you had another choice. Leave it alone as there was nothing really wrong with it.

If you try and counter with some type of error in the default system, I'll post all the bugs in the current one, which are far worse.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-28-2005, 02:21 PM
lol, let's follow storm around on player and bounce off tables.

Inspiration
03-28-2005, 03:30 PM
Because theres no other choice. :\ :whatever: x_x

Answering that question has become rather tedious and tiresome now.

Well, being that nearly every other server uses an unaltered movement system, I'd like to know why there was no choice but to change yours!

I have heard that "Stefan told to". However, it seems very odd to me that:

A) Stefan would tell a manager of a server what content to add/change, if the current content was acceptable.

B) Stefan would desire to alter Classic in such a way.



I think the main point here is, much like 2k1, the condition of this server does not represent the amount of time there has been to work on it.

2k1 is a Development server, and has TONS more content than classic, so what is justifying allowing classic to remain under the classic tab?

-Ramirez-
03-28-2005, 06:05 PM
I have heard that "Stefan told to".
Stefan didn't TELL him to, Storm AGREED to.


lol, let's follow storm around on player and bounce off tables.
*****

jake13jake
03-28-2005, 11:11 PM
Possibley because they're putting ALOT of effort into it?
They? I am "they" of the GC Team, and I could give consideration that I have accomplished more than what has been done outside of the GC Team.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-28-2005, 11:22 PM
They? I am "they" of the GC Team, and I could give consideration that I have accomplished more than what has been done outside of the GC Team.
Preach it. The LAT team consists of GFX people. No levelers. Storm is the only one making levels.

Inspiration
03-29-2005, 01:31 AM
Stefan didn't TELL him to, Storm AGREED to.


That's basically what I was getting at.

-Ramirez-
03-29-2005, 03:17 AM
That's basically what I was getting at.
I know, I just wanted to make sure people were aware of it.

jake13jake
03-29-2005, 04:26 AM
I know, I just wanted to make sure people were aware of it.
I love you, Kat! Same type deal with the Easter Egg hunt. Stryker had 3,000 the last I looked. It would have been wiser for Storm to make it so you couldn't collect easter eggs with a staff tag on. Any kind of scavenger hunt object is easy to make, bushes were the laziest way of going about it.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-29-2005, 02:27 PM
I bet Stryker is editing attributing those eggs, the same way he got all those GC Items.

jake13jake
03-29-2005, 03:31 PM
I bet Stryker is editing attributing those eggs, the same way he got all those GC Items.
No, he just wastes his life slashing bushes for hours on end.

jake13jake
03-29-2005, 09:28 PM
I got bored today and decided to work on my movement system a little bit. I ended up just adding a diaganol movement exception for walking through tiles arranged as:

x--x
-x--x
--x--x

The handling of such tile arrangements doesn't use "bouching" (as Storm refers to it), but instead moves you in a straight line when there is a vecx/vecy going simultaneously. This avoids letting the players go through walls. While Storm doesn't like that, he cannot defend his own movement system, which handles diaganol movement horribly.

Edit: Adding that the script I made lets the player "bouch" on walls, just not diaganolly.

I had been working on this script for a while (I've actually set it aside the past month or so), as a learning script.

My movement system is only a standard movement system that doesn't cover hurt, jump, or anything related to ganis. However, Master Storm's movement does handle these separately. Scripting in jumping and damage would be more of a cut and paste from his old movement solution, and even though his gani system has its fair share of bugs, I call it satisfactory for the time being.

The problem is standing, however. Master Storm is avid in using only systems he has scripted. He will not have anything to do with my movement script, no matter how superior it proves to be than his. I would like to know, simply, "Why?"

Time for Jacob's shower and toothbrushing. I am curious to see what response this post gets.

Polo
03-30-2005, 12:30 AM
The issue of 'who scripted it' is irrelevant. I find it somewhat annoying that you choose to publicly put this on the forums asking me for an answer even though I gave you one on Graal. I also find it odd that you put it in a thread currently discussing our Easter Egg Hunt...

Probably the main reason I am not going to use it is that I am redoing the movement for GScript2 anyway...

On the diagonal yours should still do the bouching if the player is holding just one directional key, and it feels wierd (to me) that it doesn't :\. I have also managed to hop onto walls using it when travelling down the diagonals. I know the conditions my movement breaks down on and why, and these are fixed in the GScript2 version. Also, Its not the simple job of copy and pasting you believe it to be. There is at least one new bug which your movement adds to the gani handling on mine (which may or may not be easily solvable), and there may be others relating to cliff jumping and stuff, although I've not checked.

In short, the effort it would take to put the two together is not worth it considering the GScript2 version will superseed it, and its not like theres any major restrictions with the current implementation. :\

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 01:07 AM
On the diagonal yours should still do the bouching if the player is holding just one directional key, and it feels wierd (to me) that it doesn't :\.

It feels wierd to me that the "bouching" doesn't work if the player is holding two directional keys in your movement system. Personally, I'd rather move through a diagonal faster than slower.

I have also managed to hop onto walls using it when travelling down the diagonals.

I know it will let you hop onto walls, and I didn't initially make it that way. I considered that it would be strange if you didn't have normal speed while moving diaganolly. It is still made so that you don't hop over the walls, however, which is a flaw in the default movement. The default moving uses the "bouching" for this effect, and it's very, very choppy. Also, you would want it done this way, and you've gone and mentioned it like it were a bug.

In short, the effort it would take to put the two together is not worth it considering the GScript2 version will superseed it

Movement isn't even considerably affected by gscript2. Most of it is calculations. If you would want me to fix your gani system for you, I am sure it wouldn't take more than a day.

GoZelda
03-30-2005, 01:09 AM
How about

The server formely known as Classic. :P
I'd play it then. Which would make it about 10 times as popular and good.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 01:36 AM
I find it somewhat annoying that you choose to publicly put this on the forums asking me for an answer even though I gave you one on Graal.
I find it annoying that you refuse to accept others work. I think Massokre is trying to prove that your keeping stuff from being released, because you want everything done your way. I like the idea of at least 1 staff member letting us know what's going on behind the scenes.

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 01:38 AM
I find it annoying that you refuse to accept others work. I think Massokre is trying to prove that your keeping stuff from being released, because you want everything done your way. I like the idea of at least 1 staff member letting us know what's going on behind the scenes.
I don't think he's not accepting other peoples work, I just think he thinks he can do a better job to the extent that he's being too controlling. (because he probably CAN script it better than I did.)

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 01:40 AM
I don't think he's not accepting other peoples work, I just think he thinks he can do a better job to the extent that he's being too controlling. (because he probably CAN script it better than I did.)
Then why are we seeing no proof of this? The movement/hit detection is still bugged to no end.

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 01:48 AM
Then why are we seeing no proof of this? The movement/hit detection is still bugged to no end.
My movement is definitely bugged a little bit. For some reason it goes to rounding sometimes when it gets crowded, but I bet that could be worked around.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 01:53 AM
My movement is definitely bugged a little bit. For some reason it goes to rounding sometimes when it gets crowded, but I bet that could be worked around.
At least you seem to be attempting to rectify this. Storm, on the other hand, has his head buried in the quest (Still the cutscene, perhaps? Why could these cutscenes not be done via script, if he's so 1337?) These are the problems I'm talking about. He doesn't let others do work, and he doesn't seem to do much himself.

-EDIT

And I seem to be one of the Graalians with this much info. Everyone else seems to think storm is working hard.

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 01:57 AM
At least you seem to be attempting to rectify this. Storm, on the other hand, has his head buried in the quest (Still the cutscene, perhaps? Why could these cutscenes not be done via script, if he's so 1337?) These are the problems I'm talking about. He doesn't let others do work, and he doesn't seem to do much himself.

-EDIT

And I seem to be one of the Graalians with this much info. Everyone else seems to think storm is working hard.

Yea, the problem with the rounding thing is that it's difficult to test for.
Programming Lesson for Today:
To find out if two variables are on the same side of zero, multiply them together and see if they are greater than zero.

Evil_Trunks
03-30-2005, 01:58 AM
I find it somewhat annoying that you choose to publicly put this on the forums asking me for an answer even though I gave you one on Graal. I also find it odd that you put it in a thread currently discussing our Easter Egg Hunt...
that's all Massokre ever does
he chats about stuff to the entire forum in random classic related threads when in fact no one cares/would understand what the heck he is saying

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 01:59 AM
that's all Massokre ever does
he chats about stuff to the entire forum in random classic related threads when in fact no one cares/would understand what the heck he is saying
But I enjoy debating :(. Why does no one like debating but me? and maybe Rak?

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 02:00 AM
I understand where he is coming from. Although I cannot claim myself to be near the talents of you, Massokre, and Storm (this isn't the easter egg thread btw, Storm), I think Massokre gets my vote as best staff member. Simply because he tries to keep players included.

jake13jake
03-30-2005, 02:08 AM
I understand where he is coming from. Although I cannot claim myself to be near the talents of you, Massokre, and Storm (this isn't the easter egg thread btw, Storm), I think Massokre gets my vote as best staff member. Simply because he tries to keep players included.
I don't know, this movement script seems to have it's share of obscure mean old bugs. sigh...

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 02:19 AM
Yes, but you seem to be working on fixing said bugs.

Polo
03-30-2005, 02:42 AM
Why could these cutscenes not be done via script, if he's so 1337?) These are the problems I'm talking about. He doesn't let others do work, and he doesn't seem to do much himself.

I am scripting them... thats the problem. I wrote a framework for rapid development of them and it was working perfectly offline. However, online when a level is updated or has no players for 5 minutes it gets unloaded from emmeory. There was a bug before hand which was preventing all the classes from joining correctly when reloading and this was affecting cutscene playback. The bug has now been fixed by Stefan, but as the 2.3x client will be moving to use GScript2 soon, I should rewrite it all for that.

jacob_bald6225
03-30-2005, 05:02 AM
http://www.sighost.us/members/Ziplock/zippyspost.gif

maximus_asinus
03-30-2005, 05:12 AM
insert crazy image
Storm hasn't met my expectations, I thought he'd be an excellent manager, but I was mistaken.

And no, do not restrict guilds to local, or make it easier for other people to make tags.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 02:25 PM
I am scripting them... thats the problem. I wrote a framework for rapid development of them and it was working perfectly offline. However, online when a level is updated or has no players for 5 minutes it gets unloaded from emmeory. There was a bug before hand which was preventing all the classes from joining correctly when reloading and this was affecting cutscene playback. The bug has now been fixed by Stefan, but as the 2.3x client will be moving to use GScript2 soon, I should rewrite it all for that.
I had been told there was an issue with the graal shop movie mode going into this?

Polo
03-30-2005, 02:29 PM
I had been told there was an issue with the graal shop movie mode going into this?

Ive never used GraalShop Movie Mode ever... so no.

p2p_Sir_Link
03-30-2005, 02:31 PM
Ive never used GraalShop Movie Mode ever... so no.
I'll have to check our history on that, either Stefan or yourself cited an error in GraalShop in a mass message.

jahngod
04-01-2005, 06:21 PM
It seems Storm is working hard, but there is a obvious lack of Level designers, and I think the reason for this is also obvious:

Storm has a vision of how he wants the server to progress, and is a little to closed-minded about this.
If Storm was a little more open-minded maybe things would progress faster.

I am not meaning to disrespect you btw Storm - I am very sure you will do a great job, and I appreciate the effort you are putting in to my favourite server! :)

maximus_asinus
04-01-2005, 06:44 PM
I mean to disrespect him, he is too close minded about everything, and if it doesn't fit into his skewed interpretation of Classic, then it isn't fit for the server. He wants to make a poorly done clone of Zelda? Players moved passed that point a long time ago, and they expect better.

jake13jake
04-01-2005, 11:59 PM
You know, I just realized how good a fit Studio M would be, remove the blocks, if it were just a PK room with (full health enabled)/(infinite ammo). Most people don't like the concept of PK rooms with ammo, but Studio M is definitely well designed to be fair in all combat.

Evil_Trunks
04-02-2005, 05:57 AM
They? I am "they" of the GC Team, and I could give consideration that I have accomplished more than what has been done outside of the GC Team.
because no one else does anything

You know, I just realized how good a fit Studio M would be, remove the blocks, if it were just a PK room with (full health enabled)/(infinite ammo). Most people don't like the concept of PK rooms with ammo, but Studio M is definitely well designed to be fair in all combat.
why in the world did you post that

jahngod
04-02-2005, 06:06 AM
I was thinking the same.

I think he posted in the wrong thread by mistake. lol

maximus_asinus
04-02-2005, 08:35 AM
Maybe he was trying to change the subject quickly as he seen this was going to turn into another storm bashing thread.

jahngod
04-02-2005, 04:39 PM
Well back on Subject:

Why on earth are there like 30players constantly on Classic - there is no content on the server *yet* lol?

Unless everyone was after the easter eggs (I never found one).

maximus_asinus
04-02-2005, 05:33 PM
Usually most of the playercount is made up of staff members (on or off tag) and RCs. Toss in some trial newbies, and a couple 'loyal' classic members, and you have yourself the typical, low class, classic playerworld.

jake13jake
04-03-2005, 09:26 PM
All I ask for is Sardon's Tower, Kull's Fort, and Ebon Keep. :(
In the meanwhile, I detest Scavenger's.

Soul-Blade
04-04-2005, 03:55 PM
Why do you people want "classic" graal back? It is classic for a reason. It has been replaced by things superior. I might venture to say I would prefer UN over classic. And that is saying a lot, because UN is terrible. Get used to something new - classic was great because of community. That community is now gone. It will never be what it used to be.

yojimbokintoray
04-05-2005, 05:13 PM
Classic will never be what it use to be.
who to blame well i vote Storm..

Crono
04-05-2005, 07:29 PM
classic was great because of community. That community is now gone. It will never be what it used to be.

Not only classic but graal itself. Graal -was- great because of community. And just like classic, this is gone and graal will never be what it used to be.

oh im smart :o

p2p_Sir_Link
04-06-2005, 12:01 AM
Not only classic but graal itself. Graal -was- great because of community. And just like classic, this is gone and graal will never be what it used to be.

oh im smart :o
How so? The community is still great. They detest newbs, but it's always been that way. If players (newbies) would stick together for a while, until they acheive oldbie/not newb status, then they'd be accepted into the community as well. Communities are like that irl, beleive it or not. Paying 48 dollars doesn't mean the community that you got to join will like you right away..

Minoc
04-06-2005, 12:20 AM
If players (newbies) would stick together for a while, until they acheive oldbie status, then they'd be accepted into the community as well.
Wouldn't that take them about 4 years?

p2p_Sir_Link
04-06-2005, 12:25 AM
To reach not-newbie status takes a couple months. Hiro, IE. I used to play way back when, yet no one remembers me, or the Azite family, x-x

Minoc
04-06-2005, 12:27 AM
To reach not-newbie status takes a couple months. Hiro, IE. I used to play way back when, yet no one remembers me, or the Azite family, x-x
Not-newbie - maybe.
Oldbie - negative.

jake13jake
04-06-2005, 03:27 AM
If there is going to be any blame, I blame Tyhm.

Polo
04-06-2005, 03:34 AM
If there is going to be any blame, I blame Tyhm.

I feel loved, for a change x_x ^^

-Ramirez-
04-06-2005, 03:54 AM
If there is going to be any blame, I blame Tyhm.
At least Tyhm didn't interfere to RUIN things. I'd rather have a manager that did nothing and ruined nothing than one that does things and ruins it all. ;)


I feel loved
You're not.

Tyhm
04-06-2005, 04:51 AM
Yeah, a number of my changes were unwelcome, unnecessary and ultimately detremental. I still think races are a keen idea, just not for Classic. I'd love to see a Saga Frontier like world where you can realistically be expected to compleat the same game with a bubble wand as with a sword - the technique is different so the goal is different, to traverse rather than defeat.
I still think seasons and night are a keen idea, and I think they're keen for Classic, just maybe not at the technology level at which they were implemented. Slowed down the game for too many people.
I still think a cohesive plot and levels that can be reasonably expected to meld without introducing such bugs as edge-PKing is a keen idea for Classic. I think such ideas are the very HEART of Classic. I think Classic was always intended to be a smooth Zelda3 like game, with magic, 20 hearts, and eventually the L4 Sword.
Here's the crux of it though - I tried to balance things out.
I think there were intended to be 20 hearts, but more than 20 quests. So you got Heras, and people didn't like it. You're right, it didn't feel Classic, but neither did quarterhearts.
I think Magic was intended to exist and to be powerful, but not something innate. So you got The Magic Quest, and people didn't like it. You're right, it didn't feel Zelda 3, but neither did Sarda's Book.
I think The Golden Sword was intended to exist and do 2 hearts of damage, but not slice through Newbies, and not be so commonplace that anyone who visited Zol's House had one. So I put it off to the very end of the plot and put Newbie Protection in dans le temps midi (a fancy way of saying "in the meantime" without saying "put it in in the meantime") I still have the levels somewhere where you at last get The Golden Sword, and I believe there were plans that a single player at any given time would be permitted to carry it out of The Golden Temple.

So yeah, I messed up Classic trying to save it. Others have messed up Classic trying to personalize it, or trying to preserve it. Now we've got a team that has carried on my legacy of messing things up in your eyes trying to save a game that belongs to all of us (though primarily supported by Stef and Steph) - a team that tore it asunder to get a wedge of it on an NPCServer, a team that managed to take the seed of Classic with the hope of regrowing the rest of it. And I wish them all the best of luck from The Tower of the Emeritus, whether you like it or not; without such well-intentioned and pigheaded developers as them and as I, there wouldn't be a Classic for you to complain about.

In any case, I fail to see what the argument is about anymore - honestly, I gave you guys Graal1998 version a AND b.

jake13jake
04-06-2005, 01:03 PM
So yeah, I messed up Classic trying to save it. Others have messed up Classic trying to personalize it, or trying to preserve it. Now we've got a team that has carried on my legacy of messing things up in your eyes trying to save a game that belongs to all of us (though primarily supported by Stef and Steph) - a team that tore it asunder to get a wedge of it on an NPCServer, a team that managed to take the seed of Classic with the hope of regrowing the rest of it. And I wish them all the best of luck from The Tower of the Emeritus, whether you like it or not; without such well-intentioned and pigheaded developers as them and as I, there wouldn't be a Classic for you to complain about.


I love you Tyhm. I thought I was the only person ever to use the word "asunder"! You should come back!!! I wish Com would come back too! Anyway, I don't believe that you messed up Classic, I believe you abandoned it.

-Ramirez-
04-06-2005, 06:21 PM
I don't believe that you messed up Classic, I believe you abandoned it.
That's precisely how I feel about it. He never really screwed it up, he just kind of disappeared for a while.

yojimbokintoray
04-06-2005, 08:00 PM
i hate tyhm as a person but i love him cuz he did never do anything and if you change somthing how can it be classic?

-change is a bad thing-

Inspiration
04-06-2005, 08:05 PM
Well I understand where you're coming from, Tyhm, I believe the Hera Quests were a large part of why Classic lost playercount.

No one wants to quest for hours on end to get enough items to have a decent spar, or to PK.

And when someone does quest, they like to feel like they've accomplished something. Getting a useless hera and being told you need to go collect xx more does not make you feel accomplished, it makes you feel aggravated.

If I wanted to do single player quests, I'd play an offline game.

Nightmareangel
04-06-2005, 10:43 PM
I must be one of the only ones that liked some of the things Tyhm did. I didn't mind the heras so much and I even liked the races. Though I believed they should of been finished before putting them up. To each their own though...har har

GoZelda
04-06-2005, 10:53 PM
I must be one of the only ones that liked some of the things Tyhm did. I didn't mind the heras so much and I even liked the races. Though I believed they should of been finished before putting them up. To each their own though...har har
I liked them too.

jake13jake
04-06-2005, 11:33 PM
I must be one of the only ones that liked some of the things Tyhm did. I didn't mind the heras so much and I even liked the races. Though I believed they should of been finished before putting them up. To each their own though...har har
I've been wanting the Zorbi Bubble back for such a long time, but storm doesn't like the idea of anything that would affect* movement.

p2p_Sir_Link
04-06-2005, 11:45 PM
The heras were actually fun. Look at other servers at people who have 20 hearts. I thought Thym's quest was brilliant. I do not blame Thym for anything that led to classic's failure in the past, or present. If Thym, and Com were both working on classic, We could get the good quests back, and great quests over bad ones. It seems like in another decade, perhaps Onett castle will be done.

jake13jake
04-07-2005, 12:01 AM
The heras were actually fun. Look at other servers at people who have 20 hearts. I thought Thym's quest was brilliant. I do not blame Thym for anything that led to classic's failure in the past, or present. If Thym, and Com were both working on classic, We could get the good quests back, and great quests over bad ones. It seems like in another decade, perhaps Onett castle will be done.
Haha, it isn't a question of who is working, it's a question of who's allowed to work. Ex. I already have a quest tiled, and for at least the offline mode it is scripted (save the final boss and prize that I never bothered working on)

p2p_Sir_Link
04-07-2005, 12:47 AM
Did I accuse of anyone of not working (Except for storm)?

Methril
04-07-2005, 02:58 AM
MasterStorm is working on a new overworld which should be released soon. They had to use the NPC-server, it is more secure and they can run more advanced scripts with it. Just bare with them until it is completed. ^.^;

lies

jacob_bald6225
04-07-2005, 05:39 AM
If we know what the staff is working on, or how fast... we wouldnt have anything to ***** about so I think theyre doing a good job.

Tyhm
04-07-2005, 01:59 PM
Yeah, that's always the problem - everyone's got a quest to put up. And that's great. But nobody's ever content to stop at A Quest - their quest has to give a fullheart, The Lizard Sword (Thank you Antago -_-; ), a new NPCW (Umm, dun look at me, I never scripted a totally useless weapon or three...^^; ), and attempt to "rebalance things". Add to that all the people who intentionally waste the reviewers' time with a clusterfunk of random tiles leading to the goldsword and 9 fullhearts, and those who sneak in a Backdoor NPCW that gives you editor-level powers online, and it's no wonder the LAT, in whatever configuration, puts both hiring and reviewing on the back burner. Which is too bad, as that's really Graal's edge.

Inspiration
04-07-2005, 02:10 PM
Quests should be the last thing the server is worried about.

People want decent levels to look at, things to do, ect.


Honestly, I think Classic would be way better off just going back to how it looked 3-4 years ago, and serving as a memory of old Graal.

Use all this time and dev power on creating new events and such, and fun things to do.

You guys already have a completed server. The first server ever. New overworld and quests won't bring life back to classic, because the classic players are pretty much just the classic players. I'm sure most of them wouldnt mind having real classic back.

I honestly think everyone is looking in the wrong direction for this place.

jake13jake
04-07-2005, 10:57 PM
Yeah, that's always the problem - everyone's got a quest to put up. And that's great. But nobody's ever content to stop at A Quest - their quest has to give a fullheart, The Lizard Sword (Thank you Antago -_-; ), a new NPCW (Umm, dun look at me, I never scripted a totally useless weapon or three...^^; ), and attempt to "rebalance things". Add to that all the people who intentionally waste the reviewers' time with a clusterfunk of random tiles leading to the goldsword and 9 fullhearts, and those who sneak in a Backdoor NPCW that gives you editor-level powers online, and it's no wonder the LAT, in whatever configuration, puts both hiring and reviewing on the back burner. Which is too bad, as that's really Graal's edge.
There are no quests on Classic right now. I honestly don't care what the quest gives. I made it before the server change at Asst. Manager Damien's request and then kept working on it when he said nevermind a few days later. It wouldn't be able to go up immediately because it requires the birdshot/some jumping over those black tiles ability. It could also be vastly improved when I rescript everything for NPC Server/Gscript2/Classes. I really should use an alternative method for keys, switches and opened doors. I do not doubt Master Storm would be able to teach me something nifty there. My quest is really puzzle-puzzle-puzzle... save for a few baddies, which I will have to script since I'm the person scripting baddies. Its tiling isn't mouth gapingly wonderful in its essence, but it has its theme.

Tyhm
04-07-2005, 11:36 PM
I disagree. Classic was never just a pretty place for PKing, at least not in my eyes. PKing is what you did when you ran out of real things to do - once you got Master Li's axe and all the fullhearts that were working at the moment, you went and farmed newbies in Level13. And when they figured out they could stay on the plateau and not die instantly, you found a trainer so you could get up there too. Not that it mattered which way they went, they never knew which way to go.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective - those who've been playing it for a while always view Classic as A place where I should have all the keen PKing gear I've always had and go around killing people without regard to such nuances as morality, fairness, willing participants and hacks - after all, it's more fun to trick a newbie into giving up his invincibility just to hammer him into the ground, they say "WTF?!?" and log off, freeing up valuable bandwidth.

Developers and newbies, naturally, see it differently. Newbies being the future of Graal, quests being Classic's sole foothold (and just more fun to make than another halfway decently tiled PKFest to be ignored for failing to be Level13).

But again - I gave you Graal1998 for PKing, and you didn't like it because the newbies stopped coming.
That should tell you something.

Inspiration
04-07-2005, 11:53 PM
The server held 3 elements really back then

PKing
Sparring
Hanging out/community

Two of three are practically dead there. People only log on because it is where their friends play.


Classic will not be able to attract new players very easy unless:

A) It has simple, easy quests
B) It becomes trial-friendly
C) It has something that makes it different, in a positive way


UN, N-Pulse, and Delteria already are "traditional" graal servers. These servers are, currently, 10x more likely to attract a new player that enjoys that style of server.

Becoming just another UN/Delt/N-Pulse will not give classic a unique advantage over anything. The most likely result of such an action would not be a gaining of new players, but a loss of old ones.

Classic should be Classic. It should play and look as close to Pre-P2P graal as possible.

At the worst, the player count would not change. At the best, older players would be happy again that their server was restored, and new players would be interested in seeing the original server and learning the history.

You're not working with a 100+ player server anymore. The PKing and sparring won't be as popular as the bigger servers. They can't be counted on.

Quests are a one time thing, that most people do not enjoy doing. Normally they are not an attraction to a server. Certainlly not a reason to play a server, if presented in a normal fashion.

What classic has going for it, is its community of people who are very close, and its events.

Throwing some halfassed new levels, quests, and NPCs onto the server will achieve nothing but a destruction of what the servers name is supposed to imply.

Tyhm
04-08-2005, 08:58 AM
I enjoy the irony of your accusing Classic of becoming a UN/Delt/N-Pulse clone.

For the rest of your ramble, I addressed that twice now. G1998. Exact duplicate of Pre P2P Graal. Didn't work. People wanted things to change, or at least the promise of change.
G1998b. Exact duplicate with a LAT. Didn't work either. People wanted it to be the way it was.
But the way it was was a transitionary stage with a familiar community of legends and lots of newbie-slaughtering, and nobody wanted to be a newbie. So how do you recapture that? You don't. You can't do it by eliminating new material, and you can't do it by adding new material.

Inspiration
04-08-2005, 12:15 PM
1998 was much too early of a version to use, with much too little content.


And please point out where I have accused Classic of becoming a clone. I recall saying that becoming similar to them would be a bad choice. That is not the same thing as saying "You've copied something".


Classic is supposed to represent something Classic! To make a whole new server pretty much defeats such purpose,

If people wanted something totally foreign to the server from years back, they would move to a different one. Just because you use a load of old content does not mean it is impossible to add new content as well.

Currently when I log on Classic, I don't feel any connection to years ago. Not just in a community way, but now in a level way too.

What is gained by destroying the server, and making a whole new one?

-Ramirez-
04-08-2005, 08:43 PM
What is gained by destroying the server, and making a whole new one?
Storm's personal satisfaction. Duh!

jahngod
04-11-2005, 01:06 AM
Graal Classic always had plenty to do.

Nice quests, with nice prizes - even when Terras were introduced, at least there were plenty of quests to do.

There was lots of NPCs you needed to collect, i.e. Zorbi Ring.

The community was cool, which always helps.

And it wasn't all about PKing - that was something people did when they no longer had anything to do.
I used to pride myself in being a Saint.

Someone said earlier: Just put the first Graal Classic back online.
Although this isn't possible due to the NPC Server - I think it would be much better to convert the old world over, rather than trying to 'create' something Classic-ish from scratch.

Shaun
04-11-2005, 10:45 AM
Geeze you guys, my being on Main brings more than enough oldbie-feeling to the server. Infact, I think you guys can't handle all of it. :rolleyes:

p2p_Sir_Link
04-11-2005, 01:45 PM
Terras?

yojimbokintoray
04-12-2005, 05:49 PM
to get classic good agen we will need a new manager.. and if storm gets fired we will get some lame ass newbie so classic is doomed anyway.

p2p_Sir_Link
04-13-2005, 04:09 AM
My GC tag/tool is broken.

StrykerTFFD
04-13-2005, 05:49 AM
I think it's safe to say people will never be satisfied so just go on doing what you're doing, Storm, and if it works it works. :cool:

Tyhm
04-13-2005, 12:58 PM
People seem to think you can, by the careful blend of simultaneously uploading and never uploading, bring the oldbies back to Classic who were only there because there was only one server and/or they were trying to get their own levels up.

Something I've learned from my 3 or 4 years (was it more? Who cares) as manager:
Screw the oldbies. No matter what you do, they're going to complain. Oldbies are the past; if they weren't, they'd stop leaving every time you change something. It's harsh, and it's not entirely accurate (there are always a few oldbies who are actually there to check out the changes, who are amused rather than offended by New Things), but as a general statement, if an oldbie complains that you've ruined classic, that only means the day ends in a Y.
Newbies, on the other hand - they're the future. They're tomorrow's oldbies. They're the ones who will judge whether Classic is a server on which to stay or one to forget they wasted so much time on. And Newbies actually can be pandered to by the Levels team, unlike Oldbies, who demand the return of Bruges and Vangel - they want things to do. Not even events, they (as a swarm) want levels with which to get a feel for the game. Sure, they'll run out of quests someday, then they'll hang out with the friends they made during their questing, or perhaps they'll PK either the enemies they made or just everyone they can find for daring to make their life so hard, or perhaps they'll form their own events - like we used to, back in the Real Old Days.
Unofficial "Go when the bomb goes off" spars in rooms that were neither scripted nor designed for it, usually chosen by virtue of their easy access. Even less official "Tour groups" and "Newbie Helpers" from the days before there was a FAQ to ignore you. Races across the map that would or wouldn't be ruined by a hacker based entirely on who happened to be on to wreck it. Scavenger hunts run without the aide of GC tools.

The joke is, if you ignore oldbies whining long enough to waste your time on the "Stupid Newbie Quests", the Newbies will all have around a hundred hours before they've got enough stuff to consider themselves jaded Oldbies, then they can amuse themselves, even without a GC on.

-Tyhm {Tour Guide}

Shaun
04-14-2005, 04:42 AM
Most of the time, I agree with Tyhm. His version of Classic/Adventure/Main was the best we've had yet. I am, however, less inclined to agree with this.

The problem right now is not that people are trying to cater to oldbies. The problem is that virtually nothing is being done to make the overworld or quests.

According to Storm, this is due to this chain of problems:

The Levels Administrator apparently can't access his computer. Because of this, members of the LAT cannot be hired. The LAT only has one tiler right now. With the exception of GC Devs and people like GrowlZ, not many are doing much for the developement of the server.

The solution is simple:

Remove the Levels Administrator. It's nothing personal, but if he/she can't do his/her job, then don't waste time. Get somebody with experience willing to work. Get a tiling team large enough to make an overworld. Implement the playerworld's actual content in the overworld as it expands.

What Tyhm says may apply eventually, but it doesn't apply yet. The server is not yet at the level where they can even begin that.

Polo
04-14-2005, 06:35 AM
The LAT only has one tiler right now.

4 Tilers; Racil, Exodus, Maximus and Daniel. We had 5, but Moonite has quit due to time constraints and such.

Tyhm
04-14-2005, 01:29 PM
Yeah, that'll do it. A dead LAT Admin can slow things down a lot (that's why I quit).

Heck, I say if Classic's not ready to go by year end, Stefan release the levels (even the stuff I toiled so long and so hard on) and make a contest of it - whoever can put together a working server first gets free hosting and managerial control of it, as clearly they are best suited to running Classic. That'd be a hoot...but he'd never risk the levels and NPCs landing on yet another illegal GServer.

Not that they live long anymore. Ahh, those were the days.

jake13jake
04-14-2005, 10:48 PM
4 Tilers; Racil, Exodus, Maximus and Daniel. We had 5, but Moonite has quit due to time constraints and such.
I was told that I wasn't hired as a tiler because I was better as a scripter anyway, and also because I develop for GC. I don't see the sense that I can't work as an LAT and make levels for the entire server and the GCs, rather than being limited to just GC levels (even though I am definitely going to help with scripts, I just won't have any access to them whatsoever).

Shaun
04-15-2005, 08:01 AM
4 Tilers; Racil, Exodus, Maximus and Daniel. We had 5, but Moonite has quit due to time constraints and such.

All but Racil are new. I had not realized you begun to take my advice. Last I had heard, the others were trying to get in, but they were being blocked because of the lack of an active levels admin.