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Gman4pwnu
01-14-2005, 06:06 AM
Playerworld98 is hiring, im sure most of you know what an rts is, Real Time Strategy. Basically its going to be a world similar to warcraft or command & conquer, it WILL be set in the past, with swords and sorcery, differant races. Stefan seems to really like the idea, i talked to him for an hour, maybe 2, about the server, he was giving me idea's. Theres nothing to see right now.

edit: im not sure whether ill have a large persistant world or "scrims"/short games that extend until you log off.

Edit #2: Looking for good sound artists as well.

Im also looking for 1 or 2 people to help with idea's, you need to be good at writing! Intelligence required :)

What I need is talented gfxers, extremely talented scripters, gani artists, and thats all at the moment.

Currently we have 3 scripters including me, 0 gani artists, and Goboom is our gfxer.

Thanks
-Scott

Leasure-13
01-14-2005, 06:57 AM
Sounds kinda kool. But i am no help as of now.. But i wish you the best of luck! =)

Evil_Trunks
01-14-2005, 07:04 AM
good luck to say the least

Shaun
01-14-2005, 07:11 AM
Everworld could be classified as an RPG Strategy, in the same vein of Ogre Battle I suppose. I wonder how the two playerworlds will be similar and how they'll be different.

oinknessx
01-14-2005, 07:53 AM
Playerworld98 is hiring, im sure most of you know what an rts is, Real Time Strategy. Basically its going to be a world similar to warcraft or command & conquer, it WILL be set in the past, with swords and sorcery, differant races. Stefan seems to really like the idea, i talked to him for an hour, maybe 2, about the server, he was giving me idea's. Theres nothing to see right now.

edit: im not sure whether ill have a large persistant world or "scrims"/short games that extend until you log off.

Im also looking for 1 or 2 people to help with idea's, you need to be good at writing! Intelligence required :)

What I need is talented gfxers, extremely talented scripters, gani artists, and thats all at the moment.

Currently we have 3 scripters including me, 0 gani artists, and Goboom is our gfxer.

Thanks
-Scott
A lot of people are talking to Stefan for an hour or two recently. I can't seem to find my oppurtunity. :frown: I'd be willing to help out with ideas! Contact me on aim. :)

James205
01-14-2005, 10:27 AM
A lot of people are talking to Stefan for an hour or two recently. I can't seem to find my oppurtunity. :frown: I'd be willing to help out with ideas! Contact me on aim. :)

Yeah I certainly need to talk to Stefan about my dev server and ive contacted PWA and nothing has happened -_- over a month.

Snakeandy7
01-14-2005, 11:15 AM
Wow, that sucks x_x.

Spark910
01-14-2005, 02:30 PM
Yeah I certainly need to talk to Stefan about my dev server and ive contacted PWA and nothing has happened -_- over a month.
I have put a note in the debug serveroptions, but don't see Stefan much to ask him myself. But, every other server who got a debug server got in contact with Stefan - so it would be better if you tried that as it works obviously as there are those online with them, who asked Stefan and got them.

Snakeandy7
01-14-2005, 06:54 PM
Stefan will only give you the debug server for a reason, not just the reason of being bugged when working on the actuall server.

Nappa
01-14-2005, 08:46 PM
Playerworld98 is hiring, im sure most of you know what an rts is, Real Time Strategy. Basically its going to be a world similar to warcraft or command & conquer, it WILL be set in the past, with swords and sorcery, differant races. Stefan seems to really like the idea, i talked to him for an hour, maybe 2, about the server, he was giving me idea's. Theres nothing to see right now.

edit: im not sure whether ill have a large persistant world or "scrims"/short games that extend until you log off.

Edit #2: Looking for good sound artists as well.

Im also looking for 1 or 2 people to help with idea's, you need to be good at writing! Intelligence required :)

What I need is talented gfxers, extremely talented scripters, gani artists, and thats all at the moment.

Currently we have 3 scripters including me, 0 gani artists, and Goboom is our gfxer.

Thanks
-Scott


I'm dissapointed. I thought a StarCraft similar server would appear before it's crappy counterpart, WarCraft.

Bring me a futuristic RTS that functions like StarCraft, and I will call you graals god!

zokemon
01-14-2005, 08:55 PM
Stefan says almost all server ideas are good but he knows no one will actually finish it.

Nappa
01-14-2005, 08:59 PM
I have a good server idea, or atleast I like it. More specifically instead of playing a human, you start off as a bug. Your race is chosen randomly for you and every time you die, you get chosen a random race (as well as when you relog on). Your object is to expand your queens territory by warring on the other bugs while still bringing enough food to satisfy your queen. Say like 2/5 of the population would be ants. They have almost no health however their are alot of them. Then their are bigger bugs such as grasshoppers, crickets, other bugs that can fight. They are stronger and have more health but their are signifigantly less of them. Then occasionally when the war starts getting lopsided, we can have some sort of human come along spray pesticide in an area and kill everyone.

Gman4pwnu
01-14-2005, 09:23 PM
I have a good server idea, or atleast I like it. More specifically instead of playing a human, you start off as a bug. Your race is chosen randomly for you and every time you die, you get chosen a random race (as well as when you relog on). Your object is to expand your queens territory by warring on the other bugs while still bringing enough food to satisfy your queen. Say like 2/5 of the population would be ants. They have almost no health however their are alot of them. Then their are bigger bugs such as grasshoppers, crickets, other bugs that can fight. They are stronger and have more health but their are signifigantly less of them. Then occasionally when the war starts getting lopsided, we can have some sort of human come along spray pesticide in an area and kill everyone.

<3 simant

btw this thread is for hiring, not your server idea's :)

haro41
01-14-2005, 10:26 PM
i saw this coming. i actually was thinking how this would be a cool idea about 2 weeks ago. instead of the PvP style, you could make each player a general, or a leader of their own troup. and around the vast world you could just have players fight their troup againts others or join a large army. a troup could probably be the player and 1-16 of his troops. that way you could put a cap on the # of troops a single person could have, but maybe make their troops level up with the more battles they win and survive.

You would have to keep the stat growth of the players hero down to a reasonable level , so if an olbie's hero came up into a reasonalby players troup of 6 rangers and 6 soldiers, he would go around decimating them in one hit not taking any damage.

A cool idea would be the ability to customize the outfits of your troop too. so they could all be decked out in armor and steel helmets, and call them the "Knights of the Round" ^^

Instead of a building where you just click buttons to get more troops, you could set up a system where npc's across the whole world are everywhere in towns sitting at tables and in bars that could be recruited. And each person would have slightly different stats, so you could decide if he would be better as a swordsman or a ranger. Each troup member could require a large initial payment with a small upkeep payment each week or something, that way your troop couldnt just grow and grow, and it forces players to stay active instead of sitting in the main towns doing nothing.

Weapon and armor shops could be set up to outfit your troop with upgrades as well. Of course special items that add effects and auras to your hero just like the merchant shops in wc3. And have an extra slot on the ganis to show your troops coat of arms, the logo of your troop and have it show when someone selects a guy in your troup. player customizable coat of arms is necessary.

And you wouldnt want to have your troop die and never come back if you happened to loose a battle. that wouldnt be any fun! so instead you could set up a system where the players hero would be the only one that you could revive and have to travel back to an Inn to find your troop there, with a small XP or money penalty.

I guess thats it. you can see i am an avid wc3 player and a game like this i would love to play.

Gman4pwnu
01-14-2005, 10:32 PM
i saw this coming. i actually was thinking how this would be a cool idea about 2 weeks ago. instead of the PvP style, you could make each player a general, or a leader of their own troup. and around the vast world you could just have players fight their troup againts others or join a large army. a troup could probably be the player and 1-16 of his troops. that way you could put a cap on the # of troops a single person could have, but maybe make their troops level up with the more battles they win and survive.

You would have to keep the stat growth of the players hero down to a reasonable level , so if an olbie's hero came up into a reasonalby players troup of 6 rangers and 6 soldiers, he would go around decimating them in one hit not taking any damage.

A cool idea would be the ability to customize the outfits of your troop too. so they could all be decked out in armor and steel helmets, and call them the "Knights of the Round" ^^

Instead of a building where you just click buttons to get more troops, you could set up a system where npc's across the whole world are everywhere in towns sitting at tables and in bars that could be recruited. And each person would have slightly different stats, so you could decide if he would be better as a swordsman or a ranger. Each troup member could require a large initial payment with a small upkeep payment each week or something, that way your troop couldnt just grow and grow, and it forces players to stay active instead of sitting in the main towns doing nothing.

Weapon and armor shops could be set up to outfit your troop with upgrades as well. Of course special items that add effects and auras to your hero just like the merchant shops in wc3. And have an extra slot on the ganis to show your troops coat of arms, the logo of your troop and have it show when someone selects a guy in your troup. player customizable coat of arms is necessary.

And you wouldnt want to have your troop die and never come back if you happened to loose a battle. that wouldnt be any fun! so instead you could set up a system where the players hero would be the only one that you could revive and have to travel back to an Inn to find your troop there, with a small XP or money penalty.

I guess thats it. you can see i am an avid wc3 player and a game like this i would love to play.

Sounds like a better warcraft 3 map than a graal server.

falco10291029
01-14-2005, 10:36 PM
I was going to make a mini game like this for EK once we got everything up, but now I know We'll be flamed for copying :rolleyes:

Gman4pwnu
01-15-2005, 01:46 AM
wtf is ur problem stealing my idea, stefan said i shouldn't have posted this idea, god damnit....

Evil_Trunks
01-15-2005, 01:50 AM
you won't make it anyway

Gman4pwnu
01-15-2005, 02:14 AM
Ive been making it the server is registered playerworld98

Doahh_p2p
01-15-2005, 02:33 AM
Ive been making it the server is registered playerworld98


So lots of noobs have servers that are worked on for the first month.
Then they hire too many managers.
Then they get taken over by the corrupt co-owner.
Then it dies After gettin about .001% Done...

konidias
01-15-2005, 03:11 AM
Um, you can't "steal" an idea that has existed for over a decade. Even if you say "it hasn't been done on Graal" that's hardly enough to say that you're so ingenius for coming up with it.

I was there when you were talking to Stefan... I had been thinking about making a RTS Graal server for a long time and now you're whining about someone stealing the idea? I'm sorry, but unless you have some really innovative, never been done before in a game idea, then you cannot complain.

I could sit here and list every game idea that I've seen yet haven't seen on Graal, that doesn't mean nobody else can use them. I'll make a Graal serve like Lemmings, or Earthworm Jim. How about a Pokemon type Graal server? Wait wait, Pokemon TCG! Yay! Harvest Moon Graal server! How about a puzzle game Graal server? What about a Mario Party type server?

Okay, now if anyone uses any idea remotely similar to the ones I posted, I will cry and tell Stefan to not let you use the idea. :(

LordZen
01-15-2005, 03:44 AM
Graal Party, that would rock.

I'm a pro button masher in every Mario Party game. I never lose in minigames where all you have to do is press A repeatedly or something.

falco10291029
01-15-2005, 04:03 AM
I already made an offline one long ago, you dsimply made money when you killed an enemy and then could buy swordsmna, bowman, or bombman who would attack the enemy on sight (script was actualyl fairly simple). Of course, fi i did add something liek that iw ould use EK weapons, and it would be more complex.

Nappa
01-15-2005, 04:10 AM
I already made an offline one long ago, you dsimply made money when you killed an enemy and then could buy swordsmna, bowman, or bombman who would attack the enemy on sight (script was actualyl fairly simple). Of course, fi i did add something liek that iw ould use EK weapons, and it would be more complex.

Somehow I doubt you made it. And please stop destroying the tree structure.

And I don't care what you made offline, if someone makes the same thing, boohoo. Are you going to tell me pking should be tooken off every server because it was on classic first ?

falco10291029
01-15-2005, 04:51 AM
Im not saying that, I was defending my right to use it as a minigame if i wish, you're attacking the wrong side merely because you don't like me. i dont care at all who uses that idea.

ApothiX
01-15-2005, 04:51 AM
How about a Pokemon type Graal server?

This has been done! Back in the 1.28 or so days, a group of people released a client that was completely pokemon-skinned and you played on a server where you catch pokemon and stuff :P

Nappa
01-15-2005, 05:01 AM
Im not saying that, I was defending my right to use it as a minigame if i wish, you're attacking the wrong side merely because you don't like me. i dont care at all who uses that idea.

I don't like you because you keep breaking the tree structure. This evokes my anger.

haro41
01-15-2005, 05:35 AM
I don't like you because you keep breaking the tree structure. This evokes my anger.

tree mode is the dumbest thing ever. i bet double posting angers you too!

what about excessive smilies? ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

Zurkiba
01-15-2005, 05:52 AM
2178 goes on a system similiar to this.

falco10291029
01-15-2005, 06:00 AM
I want to help with 2178, once i learn some gscript 2 (once it's out to us of course) I'll apply to help :)

Nappa
01-15-2005, 06:01 AM
tree mode is the dumbest thing ever. i bet double posting angers you too!

what about excessive smilies? ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

Double posting doesn't anger me. As long as you are preserving the tree structure, make as many posts as you like. In linear mode you will probably see me posting up to 3 times in a row.

Btw, i'm not in the threaded type. I am on Hybrid. I get the best of both worlds.

Gman4pwnu
01-15-2005, 06:58 AM
whats pissing me off is you people are spamming my god damn hiring thread.

haro41
01-15-2005, 11:31 AM
he started it....

Slash-P2P
01-15-2005, 04:39 PM
Let the dude try an RTS server.
Falco, I highly doubt you made an RTS seeing as how you're always having problems.
Stop whining about your ideas. You may have had them first, but you're not the one getting off your fat ass and making them happen.

Now everyone shut up, and wish Gman4pwnu some damn luck.

Nappa
01-15-2005, 09:03 PM
I'm allowed to go off topic. Last I knew their was no rule against that. However him swearing at us, I believe their is a rule against that.

syltburk
01-15-2005, 09:34 PM
Let the dude try an RTS server.
Falco, I highly doubt you made an RTS seeing as how you're always having problems.
Stop whining about your ideas. You may have had them first, but you're not the one getting off your fat ass and making them happen.

Now everyone shut up, and wish Gman4pwnu some damn luck.
His attitude certainly makes the server look promising, NOT.

Crono
01-15-2005, 10:00 PM
I have a good server idea, or atleast I like it. More specifically instead of playing a human, you start off as a bug. Your race is chosen randomly for you and every time you die, you get chosen a random race (as well as when you relog on). Your object is to expand your queens territory by warring on the other bugs while still bringing enough food to satisfy your queen. Say like 2/5 of the population would be ants. They have almost no health however their are alot of them. Then their are bigger bugs such as grasshoppers, crickets, other bugs that can fight. They are stronger and have more health but their are signifigantly less of them. Then occasionally when the war starts getting lopsided, we can have some sort of human come along spray pesticide in an area and kill everyone.

rofl I love the idea XD

Nappa
01-15-2005, 10:20 PM
rofl I love the idea XD

It's awesome. Now if only I wasn't incredibly lazy....

Anyway. Anyones free to try the bug server idea. I think it's awesome. I'd like to see some acid being sprayed and stuff. Imagine some big grasshopper taking on like 6 ants, their all jumpin on him and biting and hes squishin them.

falco10291029
01-15-2005, 10:27 PM
Falco, I highly doubt you made an RTS seeing as how you're always having problems.
Stop whining about your ideas. You may have had them first, but you're not the one getting off your fat ass and making them happen.

Wow, you are makiing the same idiotic mistake as well. I AM NOT SAYING I CARE IF HE USES THIS IDEA!

Actually Read what i am saying before making such a ******* assumption :whatver:


Quick edit:
The offline one was part of an offline game, you will usually notice my problems are with serversi9de commands and such (I.e my onwall checks al lwork offline, copylevel isnt used offline, ect). The main thing I did for it was take the original attacking npc (and use the putnpc command), change it to only attack a certain ap for the swordsman, replace the attack command with putbomb for bombman, and play around a bit with direction for the bowman (the bowman did give me problems at the time, I wasnt exactly a great scripter).

Mitch
01-16-2005, 02:47 AM
You really need to calm down? Chill and listen to g-man, he has good ideas if you wish to criticize this thread go elsewhere before you get hurt.

falco10291029
01-16-2005, 04:33 AM
Alright, anyone who thinks I am saying he's copying me is officialy an idiot. Anyone who thing I am criticizing him is an idiot. I merely stated how I was planning something like that, but might not put it up for fear of being flamed for copying. I then defended how I shouldn't be flamed for it anyway. Some *****s then mixed up what i said and thought I was mad at him for copying me, where they got that stupid idea I dont know. Funny thing is some of these people have questioned My intelligience, the hypocrites.

Kaimetsu
01-16-2005, 04:37 AM
Funny thing is some of these people have questioned My intelligience

The horror! The audacity!

falco10291029
01-16-2005, 06:27 AM
The horror! The audacity!
And what is that suppopsed to mean?

haro41
01-16-2005, 09:21 AM
you should never question MY intelligence, i have over 40 THOUSAND mana. and im pretty good with a bowstaff.

ETD
01-16-2005, 04:44 PM
A lot of people are talking to Stefan for an hour or two recently. I can't seem to find my oppurtunity. :frown:
Eh, sometimes talking to him for an hour or two equals PMing him, then waiting 20 mins for a reply, then PMing him again, waiting 25 mins for a reply... that all adds up
:P

Shaun
01-16-2005, 04:54 PM
I remember when talking to Stefan was easier. I remember he was on Main Server testing something out, so I followed him, and he didn't seem to mind. That was back when Graal was really really laggy, and that each time you'd hit a level warp, it would say ...loading for awhile, but it would be the Gserver, not the clients, so players could still chat, etc. Stefan and I were stuck for awhile on one level warp, and he started to swear.

konidias
01-17-2005, 01:02 AM
Eh, sometimes talking to him for an hour or two equals PMing him, then waiting 20 mins for a reply, then PMing him again, waiting 25 mins for a reply... that all adds up
:P

Eh no... he was talking with him player to player on the 2k1 server. Not over PM.

I find Gman annoying because he's claiming ideas, getting mad when other people had them first, and bragging about how Stefan LOVES his idea because he talked with him for like half an hour. (come on, two hours? no.)

I've talked to Stefan for hundreds of hours. I've seen him use profanity many times. I've heard his voice on microphone. I've had countless fights with him, yet we still remain on good terms.

Beat that, sucka. :cool:

Goboom
01-17-2005, 03:04 AM
I am afraid I am going to have to resign from my possition as a GFX person on this server because I am busy at the current point in time and have lost intrest in the idea. :(
Sry.

Shaun
01-17-2005, 06:47 AM
I've talked to Stefan for hundreds of hours. I've seen him use profanity many times. I've heard his voice on microphone. I've had countless fights with him, yet we still remain on good terms.

Beat that, sucka. :cool:

You came with the new wave of players, didn't you? The ones playing in Antago's bomy-playland, NewMain? I'm sure Stefan would have been more open once he established making money from the game. But, if you had tried before NewMain, and p2p, would he have even talked to you at all..?

Burn, ouch.



Note: No real offense is meant. I'm merely being funny, as I assumed you were being. If you do take offense, notify me and I will stop.

haro41
01-17-2005, 06:50 AM
i really want to see this server go places. my advice is to not get hung up on graphics and tiles. i really wouldnt care if you used the classic bodies and the classic tiles. maybe a modified version of the classic tilset, but that wouldnt take away from the good gameplay.

Aethorpe
01-17-2005, 01:08 PM
Stefan says almost all server ideas are good but he knows no one will actually finish it.


I liked Raelyn's idea. :\

Snakeandy7
01-17-2005, 02:13 PM
Me to :[

konidias
01-18-2005, 05:53 AM
You came with the new wave of players, didn't you? The ones playing in Antago's bomy-playland, NewMain? I'm sure Stefan would have been more open once he established making money from the game. But, if you had tried before NewMain, and p2p, would he have even talked to you at all..?

Burn, ouch.



Note: No real offense is meant. I'm merely being funny, as I assumed you were being. If you do take offense, notify me and I will stop.

Eh, I was playing Graal back when there was only one server. I just wasn't into Graal development until after 2k1 was released. I didn't come in on any wave. I found graal online the java game and then downloaded the game client. >_<

Shaun
01-18-2005, 07:05 AM
I found graal online the java game and then downloaded the game client. >_<

We're the same! <3

Slash-P2P
01-18-2005, 07:36 AM
I found graal online the java game and then downloaded the game client. >_<

Same with me >_<

How can you fight about talking to Stefan? I talk to him once in a while but I don't say "omg he liek responded to a pm kkkk? lolol im liek so much better n00bs cuz i talked to stefan lol" or "omg he liked my idea lol i pwn so much"

Gman4pwnu
01-18-2005, 10:36 PM
i really want to see this server go places. my advice is to not get hung up on graphics and tiles. i really wouldnt care if you used the classic bodies and the classic tiles. maybe a modified version of the classic tilset, but that wouldnt take away from the good gameplay.

Thats the great thing about having scripters and gfxers keeping seperate... the scripters work on their work, the gfxers do their thing.

Nappa
01-18-2005, 10:37 PM
I sent a forum pm to Stefan over a year ago. Still hasnt been read, or atleast no return receipt or reply.

Gman4pwnu
01-20-2005, 04:43 AM
Update: Large overworld with everything a little bit smaller, with something similar to rome total war or shogun total war or medieval total war. Of course everything will still be real time, you'll enter battle mode when your army arrives at a base, you'll be able to zoom into towns and build buildings wherever.

Slash-P2P
01-20-2005, 04:57 AM
Update: Large overworld with everything a little bit smaller, with something similar to rome total war or shogun total war or medieval total war. Of course everything will still be real time, you'll enter battle mode when your army arrives at a base, you'll be able to zoom into towns and build buildings wherever.

How are you going to do zooming?
say2 PUSH ALT+8 OR ALT+9!!!;?

Gman4pwnu
01-20-2005, 05:32 AM
shoulda put it in better context, basically you'll be able to go into your town levels and modify it, so it'll just be a change level, also planned you'll have your king/leader guy, you can keep him on his throne and command or go around and do **** with him with reg graal controls but of course diff weapon. If he dies and there are no heirs to the throne though, you lose and you can restart as maybe a civilian, and lead an uprising in a town, and start out from there.

of course these are all just thoughts and subject to change.

Slash-P2P
01-20-2005, 05:37 AM
shoulda put it in better context, basically you'll be able to go into your town levels and modify it, so it'll just be a change level, also planned you'll have your king/leader guy, you can keep him on his throne and command or go around and do **** with him with reg graal controls but of course diff weapon. If he dies and there are no heirs to the throne though, you lose and you can restart as maybe a civilian, and lead an uprising in a town, and start out from there.

of course these are all just thoughts and subject to change.

This is going to take a long time and a lot of work. I think there should be parties or something where there is a leader. The leader has the overhead view and the normal players are the units. The leader can send commands to the players. Hopefully the players cooperate with the leader's orders.

Evil_Trunks
01-20-2005, 05:49 AM
Graal 3.1 should add a zoom command

that seems like it would be neat

maybe it would take a lot of resources though... :(

Gman4pwnu
01-20-2005, 02:28 PM
This is going to take a long time and a lot of work. I think there should be parties or something where there is a leader. The leader has the overhead view and the normal players are the units. The leader can send commands to the players. Hopefully the players cooperate with the leader's orders.

If it were real players then it wouldn't be an rts, because the players wouldn't always listen to the leader.

Slash-P2P
01-20-2005, 06:27 PM
If it were real players then it wouldn't be an rts, because the players wouldn't always listen to the leader.

Would be funny though ^^

Shaun
01-20-2005, 07:01 PM
Everworld has a system that sounds remarkably like what you want. You just seem a bit more unorganized.

Slash-P2P
01-21-2005, 12:21 AM
I can picture it..

Leader: slash. go left.
*goes wherever i want*
Leader: slash!! left!!
*sits down*
Leader: >=O

falco10291029
01-21-2005, 12:50 AM
That's about how cooperative I would be except more like:

Leader: Cris, attack them
Me:Nah...
Leader: Hurry Attack!
*kills leader*

Slash-P2P
01-21-2005, 01:19 AM
Its like Natural Selection. (HL1 mod)

Sum41Freeeeek
01-21-2005, 03:55 AM
I like the idea, and I hope this will not be one of those projects that die after a week.

Gman4pwnu
01-21-2005, 05:58 AM
you know me.. im gman, i stick with my project, besides, this time i cant be fired :)

Curt1zzle
01-21-2005, 07:10 AM
Stefan says almost all server ideas are good but he knows no one will actually finish it.

Yes....good....NOW BUY SERVER SPACE! :rolleyes:

Spark910
02-02-2005, 12:35 AM
See: http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57222