PDA

View Full Version : Miscellaneous Kingdom Discussion


Sam
12-30-2004, 04:09 PM
>>Quote:
Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

"Dustari is in decline. All the Kingdoms are- that much is apparent. For whatever reason, for whatever cause, the Kingdoms are dieing.......<<


I just found this thread in the Dustari-Forum. Do you think Crescent Pirate also in decline? And if you think so, please tell us why.

GoZelda
12-30-2004, 04:25 PM
It was in decline ever since Ziro was kicked. That became even worse when I was kicked by MarkB and he was inactive.

Zurkiba
12-30-2004, 04:52 PM
Ghost Pirate is pissed at the current Cresent Pirates, so I would say yes.

2003_emily_2003
12-30-2004, 06:33 PM
Yes, it is in decline. I would prefere not to say why.

Brad
12-30-2004, 06:39 PM
ill say why
you got a bunch of dumbasses running around pking while sleeping in an arrrg or yes captain


just my 33 cents

2003_emily_2003
12-30-2004, 06:49 PM
Alot of these new pirate's don't know what RP means Ž_Ž...

Zero Hour
12-30-2004, 07:06 PM
All Kingdoms are declining. I would probably feel compelled to log on tag more often if I knew that I wouldn't be greeted by people who want to talk about their dog, or favorite video-game in far too many GMs.

I don't mean to compare, or something - but it was nice back when I was in Zormite and I was greeted in an RP fashion and, since people knew I could RP, people would start a RP conversation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an RP **** like our good friend LegoBomb (whom I wish would return). But you can't just say it's the RP... Look at Forest when it wasn't recruiting... they had some great people. Why were they great? Chris chose quality of quanitity... something KJ could learn from... Forest had some very smart and very mature people - I was tempted to join at one time.

I think perhaps if the kingdoms didn't race to have the highest number in "recruits" then we would have more people WANTING to join a kingdom and less SENSLESSLY idling on tag talking about how their dog likes to lick his/her feet.

That's just my "33 cents"

Sam
12-30-2004, 08:17 PM
Old people always say: In former times everything was better!

CP did not race to have the highest number in "recruits". We just stopped some days ago to recruit, because we try select more!
We also have a lot of "dead members" in our kingdom. They have to be deleted.
I am wondering about some people: they posting and complaining that our kingdoms are declining. And all what they say when going on tag is: It's in my profile on the homepage bit" or "FFXI is updating, like it always does. And it's going to take 3 hours. But it starts in 30 mins".
Not all players speaking english as their native-tongue, some trying hard, others are perfect. How shall all of this people be a prefect member of a kingdom and also perfect in RP?
It is easy to say: the kingdoms are going down. I donīt think the only sense of this game is RP. Teach bad poleplayers how to do it is the better way!

My wish for the new year: be a little more tolerantly!

Nappa
12-30-2004, 08:20 PM
CP is dead. All kingdoms are dead. The moment GK was in decline was the day it was released. I can't say anything has gone up. Sure we started at a good level and it took a while to go down, but it did go down, and as long as the same people are running these kingdoms, we won't see any changes.

I am not going to get involved other then talking about the fish heads in the Dustari thread, but I must say, as long as the same people with the same policies around - They will have the same problems.

Zurkiba
12-30-2004, 08:37 PM
Not all players speaking english as their native-tongue, some trying hard, others are perfect. How shall all of this people be a prefect member of a kingdom and also perfect in RP?

It didn't stop Discharge, he roleplayed as a Spanish Paladin!

air_archmage
12-30-2004, 09:04 PM
I dont think CP is in a decline.. I see more CP members on then any other kingdom cept maybe ZR.
but they occationaly have dead days.

air_archmage
12-30-2004, 09:06 PM
Also.. Nice signature drawing Emily.

Nappa
12-30-2004, 09:06 PM
I propose that the thread started in the dustari section be continued here due to it was closed for no real reason at all. Here, the Dustari leaders cannot close the thread.

GoZelda
12-30-2004, 09:08 PM
I dont think CP is in a decline.. I see more CP members on then any other kingdom cept maybe ZR.
but they occationaly have dead days.
We're talking about something different here.

air_archmage
12-30-2004, 09:14 PM
realy?
god....
wont some one TELL ME WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON O_O!

Lance
12-30-2004, 11:59 PM
Old people always say: In former times everything was better!

This has nothing to do with old people vs. new people. This has to do with whether the kingdoms and their people roleplay or not.

My wish for the new year: be a little more tolerantly!

No, we don't tolerate it when people in role-playing kingdoms do not roleplay.

oinknessx
12-31-2004, 12:04 AM
The kingdoms will never be as good as Bomy Moon was waaay back, maybe even before it was called Bomy Moon.... back when it was Graal2001, and the Kingdoms were Zormite, Pirate Crew, Dustari, and Samurai.... It'll never be that good again.. Especially with certain kingdoms changing their names crazily all the time with no reason. x. x

Moonite
12-31-2004, 04:42 AM
Pirate Crew.. damn thats sounds lame

Splke
12-31-2004, 04:44 AM
realy?
god....
wont some one TELL ME WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON O_O!

No, we don't like people like you spreading about your "hacks" and client-side "scripts". :rolleyes:


Ever since Ghost Pirate left GK (or whatso), CP has declined. Nate, Ziro, Valder, Mark. Do you realize those are all selfish idiots? I do, GP wasn't.

Zurkiba
12-31-2004, 07:39 AM
I dont think CP is in a decline.. I see more CP members on then any other kingdom cept maybe ZR.
but they occationaly have dead days.
So by your logic India and/or China are the -best- nations of the world since they have the most people living.

2003_emily_2003
12-31-2004, 09:38 AM
And all what they say when going on tag is: It's in my profile on the homepage bit" or "FFXI is updating, like it always does. And it's going to take 3 hours. But it starts in 30 mins".

...

Splke
12-31-2004, 10:06 AM
...

Sephiroth is cute. :)

Evil_Trunks
12-31-2004, 10:53 AM
So by your logic India and/or China are the -best- nations of the world since they have the most people living.
and UN is the best playerworld, of course :redface:

busyrobot
12-31-2004, 11:50 AM
This has nothing to do with old people vs. new people. This has to do with whether the kingdoms and their people roleplay or not.


No, we don't tolerate it when people in role-playing kingdoms do not roleplay.

Anything is possible for the person who doesn't have to do it themself, I can't speak for CP but regarding the general decline the GK framework doesn't encourage RPing that well. It did, when the average player was lvl 6.

I am all in favor of kingdom leaders doing what they can to encourage RPing, but I think that more needs to be done than throwing blame around. When people were lvl 6, on average, you could roleplay during wartime, the outcome of battles were never certain, and having enough boards and cannon balls and equiping the soldiers with even basic weapons and armor from the HH (unblessed) could turn the tide of battle.

What we really need, is some way to figure out the right direction for GK to take that can remedy these problems, and I can only expect it would take some adjusting of game mechanics. Its too easy to throw around the statement "let their members not RP all the time" and let all the weight fall on that but its not that easy. Doesn't mean we should give in - just that we need some way to move things forward.

I think that all the kingdom leaders, with some staff members and a few hand picked kingdom members, should work out some plot lines that everyone can have fun with.
I would personally support the Crescent Pirates engaging in active piracy in main waters, and should they fire on a dustari ship we would send naval ships after the pirate ship in question. Perhaps a punitive raid on the pirate shores if there is a lot of activity or if it goes into Dustari waters, but its not like CP would have to worry about being conquered or such.

Here is an idea to aid piracy in GK:

Add a mineral mine to each kingdom island, not for normal components but perhaps stones like 'raw jade' and such, different kind to each kingdom.
Add a standard 'Cargo Chest' to ships, that you can load up with as much ore as you can fit. No one can take it out, but each kingdom island, far enough away, could have a dock at a processing center, that acts like the stone crushers at the normal mines. You dock, talk to an NPC, and it pays the person 'jade' that is worth something when sold to NPCS thats based on the amount of ore in the hold. If a pirate sinks the ship, then 1/2 the cargo load gets transferred to the pirate ship's cargo hold and the rest is lost. Then you can have full on convoys when you mine enough, and do everything you can to get your ships through.
Also, if navy ships sink the pirate ship that has been looting for a while, it will make a profit by seizing 1/2 the pirate ship hold's contents.

Perhaps instead of a mine, you can hit special flowers on an isle to get 'raw spice' that grow randomly in the forest, and jewels from another, and that sort of thing.
To make it more interesting, each ship could have a 'view stats' that in the F2 window, prints how many ships that ship has sunk, the total tonnage of cargo it has captured, and the time it has been at sea. Then it could be a matter of pride for naval captians and pirate captians to keep their ships in one piece.

[side note, it would only be processed by going to the dock, not by walking up on foot, and perhaps we'd have to bar people carrying that stuff from entering the dungeons, maybe they are cursed by demons that hate spices, I don't know the excuse but travel should be forced to be by sea]

Now, I know I have been talking game mechanics for the last several paragraphs, but you have to admit, game mechanics like that can go a long way to making not just being but acting like a pirate a lot more appealing, and with a bit of help from the staff scripting team, it would be a game mechanic addition that is very complimentry to creating a vibrant pirate RP atmosphere.

GoZelda
12-31-2004, 01:20 PM
Now, I know I have been talking game mechanics for the last several paragraphs, but you have to admit, game mechanics like that can go a long way to making not just being but acting like a pirate a lot more appealing, and with a bit of help from the staff scripting team, it would be a game mechanic addition that is very complimentry to creating a vibrant pirate RP atmosphere.
It's a good idea, but how long haven't we proposed similar ideas in the suggestion forums?

Zurkiba
12-31-2004, 05:01 PM
Anything is possible for the person who doesn't have to do it themself, I can't speak for CP but regarding the general decline the GK framework doesn't encourage RPing that well. It did, when the average player was lvl 6.

I am all in favor of kingdom leaders doing what they can to encourage RPing, but I think that more needs to be done than throwing blame around. When people were lvl 6, on average, you could roleplay during wartime, the outcome of battles were never certain, and having enough boards and cannon balls and equiping the soldiers with even basic weapons and armor from the HH (unblessed) could turn the tide of battle.

Chris and Forest have no problem mixing the game mechanics and roleplaying into the server.

What's wrong with Graal Kingdoms is this, There are hardly any leaders who roleplay.

busyrobot
12-31-2004, 07:54 PM
Chris and Forest have no problem mixing the game mechanics and roleplaying into the server.

What's wrong with Graal Kingdoms is this, There are hardly any leaders who roleplay.

Are you sure about that? I haven't heard of Forest doing anything that major with the other kingdoms...in a long time. I am not trying to bash forest, or any of the kingdoms, but I do think you are being short sighted if you can't see how game mechanics have effected the game in general. So instead of simplistic responses there should be a constructive forum on how to improve roleplaying in GK.

On the front of CP and roleplaying, I do think that it could be more fun if they engaged in piracy more often, it was easier in GP day when CP struck fear with good reason into all the kingdoms. Today, the other kingdoms are all pretty strong and can't be so easily threatened, but some good skirmishes would be a nice idea.

--Chris--
12-31-2004, 09:49 PM
Actually...this was this month, no?

busyrobot
12-31-2004, 10:08 PM
Actually...this was this month, no?

This thread is getting less and less about CP but...what is that a screen shot of exactly? It looks like a wand handout or something. If an average day in the life of forest is full of various RP events and plots and storylines, I would be interested in knowing how its going. Otherwise, we should all be brainstorming on how to get some excitment and interest back into kingdoms and improve roleplaying overall. This includes wars, treaties, piracy, quests, hunts, festivals and the like.

--Chris--
12-31-2004, 10:13 PM
In a nutshell; Pirates stole the wands, we had a lil war, we got them back.

I agree with you. Personally I believe there should be an RP admin and fix role-playing events which kingdoms must participate in. In the case of wars, the story alters depending on the winning party.

protagonist
12-31-2004, 11:55 PM
Know what needs to happen?

You need to have a way to enter PK mode without being in a kingdom, so that newbs who just want to mess around in battle mode don't go join a kingdom and make fool.

WanDaMan
01-01-2005, 12:12 AM
A Kingdom leader should be introduced; instead of Kingdom leaders deciding who gets to be the leader after they leave someone with experience should approve someone who they think deserve it.

An Roleplaying leader would probably help too, I want to see more battles between kingdoms and if possible more kingdoms!

Evil_Lord_Sparda
01-01-2005, 12:48 AM
If anything there are too many Kingdoms at the moment. People are being spread far too thinly across the Kingdoms as it is. I would prefer less Kingdoms with higher player counts.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 12:52 AM
If anything there are too many Kingdoms at the moment. People are being spread far too thinly across the Kingdoms as it is. I would prefer less Kingdoms with higher player counts.
Yes, combine Zormite and Dustari. Pirates should be more like an 'official' guild, kill their island too. They can have the island east of Hotaru which isn't used anyway.

Gambet
01-01-2005, 01:05 AM
Its not just the kingdoms that are dying, but the server in itself.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 01:12 AM
In a nutshell; Pirates stole the wands, we had a lil war, we got them back.

I agree with you. Personally I believe there should be an RP admin and fix role-playing events which kingdoms must participate in. In the case of wars, the story alters depending on the winning party.

Cool, sounds like a fun event. I think that RP admins would help but shouldn't just be there to make RPing forcive, but more entertaining. As for wars, power players pretty much fix the results of wars before they occur, so it can't really alter the storyline for the winning party if the outcome is predetermined. There needs to be a way that playing smart and the overall health of a kingdom determines the winning party - not who has the most lvled up players and items. We need to have storylines where the players can participate to improve the chances of their kingdom succeeding, and something being at stake in the plot.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 01:23 AM
Cool, sounds like a fun event. I think that RP admins would help but shouldn't just be there to make RPing forcive, but more entertaining. As for wars, power players pretty much fix the results of wars before they occur, so it can't really alter the storyline for the winning party if the outcome is predetermined. There needs to be a way that playing smart and the overall health of a kingdom determines the winning party - not who has the most lvled up players and items. We need to have storylines where the players can participate to improve the chances of their kingdom succeeding, and something being at stake in the plot.
One of the good things when everybody was ~level 6, everybody could hit and hurt everybody, and if you couldn't the gap was easily crossed. Now you can't. This is a big problem, but if it's fixed it would help the RPing since even someone of say, level 10, could hurt a level 100 even though it's just a little such as 2 damage. But about 10 level 10s could take down a level 100 that way.

GoldSri
01-01-2005, 01:33 AM
I think pirates is in decline...New members cannot be expected to RP properly when the people who should be setting an example are using phrases such like
"k, i'll see ya's l8r"
I mentioned it to a friend, who later talked to this person in RP and still got responses like the above =/

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 01:38 AM
One of the good things when everybody was ~level 6, everybody could hit and hurt everybody, and if you couldn't the gap was easily crossed. Now you can't. This is a big problem, but if it's fixed it would help the RPing since even someone of say, level 10, could hurt a level 100 even though it's just a little such as 2 damage. But about 10 level 10s could take down a level 100 that way.

One idea I had to fix that, is a 'swarming' mechanism. Each time a player is hit, a timeout script gives them a +2 penalty to their AC for up to 3 seconds. Each time a player is attacked but missed, they get a +1 penalty for 2 seconds. A player who has to fight off a large number of attackers would then become much more vulnerable - which frankly is more realistic too. It would make monster hordes more dangerous in dungeons and maps as well.
I agree about when the people were around lvl 6 and the fun times we had in wars, and the problem of high level 'unstoppables' in wars. The most important thing is to find solutions now or throw in the towel...we've tried the limbo thing long enough, its time for working solutions.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 01:43 AM
One idea I had to fix that, is a 'swarming' mechanism. Each time a player is hit, a timeout script gives them a +2 penalty to their AC for up to 3 seconds. Each time a player is attacked but missed, they get a +1 penalty for 2 seconds.
It'd still require much stronger players to do this. An option would be that if a player was attacked from multiple sides, his shield AC could only be used against one, and would be subtracted from the ac against the rest of his attacker [possibly gloves/bracers too]. You can also add something like the possibility of your helmet falling off (it unequips but stays in your inventory).

protagonist
01-01-2005, 02:31 AM
Get rid of levels above level 30. Also, get monsters to drop rare items, and make it so that monsters are very difficult to kill by onesself.

Zurkiba
01-01-2005, 02:52 AM
One idea I had to fix that, is a 'swarming' mechanism. Each time a player is hit, a timeout script gives them a +2 penalty to their AC for up to 3 seconds. Each time a player is attacked but missed, they get a +1 penalty for 2 seconds. A player who has to fight off a large number of attackers would then become much more vulnerable - which frankly is more realistic too. It would make monster hordes more dangerous in dungeons and maps as well.
I agree about when the people were around lvl 6 and the fun times we had in wars, and the problem of high level 'unstoppables' in wars. The most important thing is to find solutions now or throw in the towel...we've tried the limbo thing long enough, its time for working solutions.
-OR-

We could just bring back Kingdom Mode in which everyone is level 5 and each person does 5-10 damage a swing.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 05:56 AM
-OR-

We could just bring back Kingdom Mode in which everyone is level 5 and each person does 5-10 damage a swing.

Then no one could hit anyone, since the armor people wear is already EAed up. It would also exaggerate the advantage of people with duel RoWs and PMoP etc, but I think some sort of bringing back kingdom mode is a good idea. There are a lot of veteran roleplayers here, we should be able to come up with a good solution. :)

Nappa
01-01-2005, 09:16 AM
Yes, combine Zormite and Dustari. Pirates should be more like an 'official' guild, kill their island too. They can have the island east of Hotaru which isn't used anyway.


BY GEORGE I THINK YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING! No, seriously. This is the best thing I've heard in this thread. The second best thing below.

Get rid of levels above level 30.

And I always thought you never had a brain. Hallelujah hallelujah the lord has come!

PLEASE DO THESE THINGS.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 09:41 AM
It would be great to limit levels above 30 in some ways, but it a) will never happen staff/playerbase wise... and b) people have worked hard to get above that level and its hard to blame higher level players when they are only responding to the high level players in other threatening kingdoms and working hard to protect their kingdom. Its not like they are at fault.

In regards to combining zormite and dustari...these are actually very distinct element.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 09:55 AM
Well, GK will never be limited to level thirty, it just won't happen...staff/playerbase wise. Its also hard to blame players who work hard to get to high levels to defend their kingdoms and penalize them, chances are in the end high end players will take a hit so the least we can do is ensure that its thought out as best as possible.

As for combining zormite and dustari, they are very very distinct kingdoms. Dustari is very medieval, and zormite is both a replublic and has a very ancient world feel to it. The two nations have an alliance that makes them as strong as one kingdom, but diversity would be lost if they were merged.

What we need is a good plot, a good RP story to tell. In addition to that, an effective mechanism that helped promote RP compatible wars would greatly help.

Nappa
01-01-2005, 10:27 AM
Dustari and Zormite are as good as one. We could just cut out the middle man. The only reason this wont happen is one of these little queens will have to give up their throne.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 11:16 AM
Dustari and Zormite are as good as one. We could just cut out the middle man. The only reason this wont happen is one of these little queens will have to give up their throne.

I'll take note of that and file it under "how not to make a constructive comment" thank you. If you can't see the difference between the two kingdoms you are making a point of not wanting to.

MadScience7
01-01-2005, 12:48 PM
I think CP is on the way up. We have a good core group of active members
who participate in all the events, are always on tag, and are always helping
and encouraging each other. It's a fun and active kingdom with a lot going on.

As for RP, thats a no win game where nobody is ever happy. Some vocal
people will always say there's not enough and then when you make rules to
enforce RP, a big group on the other side says that sucks. We try to take a
middle road where RP is encouraged, without making it a requirement.
In fact, to promote interest in RP, we are working on a Pirates-Zormite RP
event which I hope will be the first of many. I hope other kingdoms will also
be interested in this setting up this type of event.

As with anything in life, its easy to sit back and criticize the way things are,
but much harder to be part of the solution and work to make things better.

Governor Alan Steele - Crescent Pirates

WanDaMan
01-01-2005, 01:29 PM
Yeah! only have 4 kingdoms and keep the allies so everything will be perfect. Get real, get some action no one wants to play a game where they can't battle anyone in a different kingdom -_-

Zurkiba
01-01-2005, 05:39 PM
Well, GK will never be limited to level thirty, it just won't happen...staff/playerbase wise. Its also hard to blame players who work hard to get to high levels to defend their kingdoms and penalize them, chances are in the end high end players will take a hit so the least we can do is ensure that its thought out as best as possible.
Yeah, we dont want to piss off the top five players so that the 100 other players can enjoy a game. That'd just be a crime against humanity itself.

Lower everyone's EXP down 80%-90% and make it harder to get EXP, tada! Zurkiba has just solved how to level the levels.

Not to mention most people just abuse bugs to get exp. Granted there will always be bugs but atleast those bug exploiters wont be leading the kingdoms.



As for combining zormite and dustari, they are very very distinct kingdoms. Dustari is very medieval, and zormite is both a replublic and has a very ancient world feel to it. The two nations have an alliance that makes them as strong as one kingdom, but diversity would be lost if they were merged.

I'll take note of that and file it under "how not to make a constructive comment" thank you. If you can't see the difference between the two kingdoms you are making a point of not wanting to.

Awesome, not only are both kingdoms lead by people from Dustari. They go against every single set of prior settings to ruin kingdoms.

Zormite has an ancient feel? For me it has a vomitting feel :(. If you think that then Zen has failed in his reasoning to make Zormite feel like a modern state.

Dustari is more like a fantasy human kingdom. Otherwise 90% of the army would be carrying around pickaxes and lumber axes while the other 10% were Knights.

Yeah, Republic by name, Monarchy by actuality.

What diversity? The different rank names.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 05:52 PM
What diversity? The different rank names.
And different members + island. It just makes so much more sense to combine Zormite and Dustari since they operate as one anyway too.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 09:20 PM
Yeah, we dont want to piss off the top five players so that the 100 other players can enjoy a game. That'd just be a crime against humanity itself.

Lower everyone's EXP down 80%-90% and make it harder to get EXP, tada! Zurkiba has just solved how to level the levels.

Not to mention most people just abuse bugs to get exp. Granted there will always be bugs but atleast those bug exploiters wont be leading the kingdoms.


First, you'll find its more like 100 players getting pissed off and about 5 or so in favor...even Zoe, who is the strongest player in the game last I checked, was in favor of a complete reset. If you think she abused bugs, check her hours - she earned her XP. If it wasn't for players like her lots of PKers who have absolutely no interest in RPing would have had total run of every island on GK, you should really be thanking her. I have personally proposed ideas such as nerphing people's XP by percent, and fixing the xp amounts, but if you wait for things like that to further roleplaying then you are obstructing, not helping, progress with RPing.

Awesome, not only are both kingdoms lead by people from Dustari. They go against every single set of prior settings to ruin kingdoms.

Aki has been in zormite for ages, she's one of the oldest members of that kingdom.

Zormite has an ancient feel? For me it has a vomitting feel :(. If you think that then Zen has failed in his reasoning to make Zormite feel like a modern state.

That is because of your unhealthy obsession with zormite/fishhead issues. If you were a better roleplayer you would have long ago accepted that Zormite is the way it is. I doubt you could roleplay a character who was even neutral towards Zormite, because of your petty out of character differences of opinion on the direction it should have taken. You should accept that fishheads hurt roleplaying (how do you recruit people to join a kingdom who have RP characters that are.............not fish? Zormite has to be a working kingdom, not just a goldfish bowl for your ammusment)

As for Zen, he did add a much more modern touch, but it definately has a bronze age feel to the island overall, that it has a longer history.


Dustari is more like a fantasy human kingdom. Otherwise 90% of the army would be carrying around pickaxes and lumber axes while the other 10% were Knights.

Picking hairs here.


Yeah, Republic by name, Monarchy by actuality.

What diversity? The different rank names.

Yeah, Monarchy by game mechanics as a result of the fixed kingdom GUI, a Republic by roleplaying of its members. The only thing that is so similar between Dustari and Zormite, is your ill founded petty contempt for both.
Get over it so you can stop being such an obstructionist and actually help further progress with roleplaying. I think we are trying to brainstorm here, not bicker over long dead differences of direction in the various kingdoms' developments.

protagonist
01-01-2005, 09:27 PM
Idea: Any one on a kingdom tag gets their stats set to a fixed position.

Nappa
01-01-2005, 10:14 PM
The only thing different about Dustari and Zormite is the name. They both go together with every decision. The kingdom leaders are of the same royal family. You and I both know that the only differences are the names.

busyrobot
01-01-2005, 10:18 PM
The only thing different about Dustari and Zormite is the name. They both go together with every decision. The kingdom leaders are of the same royal family. You and I both know that the only differences are the names.

A strong alliance is not the same as both of them functioning the same. They have entirely different roleplaying setups and styles. As different as CP and forest. I prefer the human/medieval/fantasy type kingdom, to roleplay in greatly to that of a republic. That is my personal preference. People who prefer differently, of course, are in zormite. Then there are people who prefer to complain about everything, and like you, they are not in any kingdom.

Brad
01-01-2005, 10:21 PM
Then there are people who prefer to complain about everything, and like you, they are not in any kingdom.


That must be why I'm not in any kingdom either. Well, I was in Samurai until the Empress found out I wanted to take over. :[

Aethorpe
01-01-2005, 10:23 PM
It was in decline ever since Ziro was kicked.

I don't think the pirates are in decline, I know they are, and I will tell you why, because the pirates aren't pirates anymore, they are people who like pirates.

I would like to note that the quote in Ziro's signature has become less of a joke, and more of a reality, please observe.

<taken off AIM, Ryan W referring to Zormite on GK after I told him why they're not a fish-like race anymore>
Freak0102: That's like the new Governor of CP saying "I don't really like pirates since GK doesn't have eye patches and stuff, so let's be guys who think pirates are cool instead"

Believe it or not, I was actually talking to Alisa on teamspeak and with her own words, she might as well have said just that, she said something along the lines of:

"Pirates are mean and cruel because they kill people and steal things, so I don't think we should be like pirates, but more like a pirate club."

It's a sad fact people, wake up, CP has no true pirates anymore, all the true pirates that were in CP got kicked out for being pirates.

IE: killing on tag, stealing/scamming, cursing, things that are to be expected of any halfway decent pirate scum

If I am not mistaken, pirates are societal outcast who have turned towards violence and theft as a more adventurous and profitable line of work, CP is just a bunch of carebears with hooks that say "Ahoy" alot.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 10:24 PM
They have entirely different roleplaying setups and styles.
But, since they don't roleplay anyway, this doesn't matter.

Zurkiba
01-01-2005, 10:27 PM
First, you'll find its more like 100 players getting pissed off and about 5 or so in favor...even Zoe, who is the strongest player in the game last I checked, was in favor of a complete reset. If you think she abused bugs, check her hours - she earned her XP. If it wasn't for players like her lots of PKers who have absolutely no interest in RPing would have had total run of every island on GK, you should really be thanking her. I have personally proposed ideas such as nerphing people's XP by percent, and fixing the xp amounts, but if you wait for things like that to further roleplaying then you are obstructing, not helping, progress with RPing.
Zoe is a hypocrite or a bug exploiter. Zoe told me that I need to get a life, and that Graal is only a game.

I have a lot of hours on Graal Kingdoms, which must mean I should be higher then level 6 right?

How does Zoe's level influence the number of roleplayers in the game? It doesn't. If anything it deters people from roleplaying in general. Because of players like her there are no wars and therefore roleplaying slowly dies.

That is because of your unhealthy obsession with zormite/fishhead issues. If you were a better roleplayer you would have long ago accepted that Zormite is the way it is. I doubt you could roleplay a character who was even neutral towards Zormite, because of your petty out of character differences of opinion on the direction it should have taken. You should accept that fishheads hurt roleplaying (how do you recruit people to join a kingdom who have RP characters that are.............not fish? Zormite has to be a working kingdom, not just a goldfish bowl for your ammusment)
Obviously you fail to understand that the current state is not roleplaying. 'OMG IT WAS MAGIC AND NOW WE'RE HUMANS! OMG!' wow, nice roleplaying there.

Funny, I could've swore the Zormite Empire of 2k1 did perfectly fine. In fact I believe it became the most active kingdom on 2k1 and conquered the world. Gasp! No you're right, being a fish would never work and it ruins roleplaying and the state of Zormite in general.



As for Zen, he did add a much more modern touch, but it definately has a bronze age feel to the island overall, that it has a longer history.
Ugh

Get over it so you can stop being such an obstructionist and actually help further progress with roleplaying. I think we are trying to brainstorm here, not bicker over long dead differences of direction in the various kingdoms' developments.
Obstructionist? Hardly. If you listened to me then we wouldn't be in this mess.

If you couldn't tell I'm a very aggressive person. Ergo I fix problems the way I know best, through aggression. Why?.. because the leaders of today do not understand what their kingdom is.

We are not brainstorming here. The point of the thread is to discuss if Cresent Pirates are going downhill. It went far off track with discussions such as this. But the conversations had to be in this thread because the corruption over at the Dustari forums just flooded the ideas of all elsewhere.

It is you are the obstructionist. Along with you are some of the other kingdom leaders. The kingdom leaders are directly responsible for the outcome of the roleplaying community of Graal Kingdoms and you have failed.

Then there are people who prefer to complain about everything, and like you, they are not in any kingdom.
You fail to understand that a person with KAD rights can not remove a person from a kingdom.

Do you think I am not a Dustarian? Far from it. I am more Dustarian than you are. I still believe myself to be within the kingdom. The same is with Nappa and the Zormites. Why dont you ask Nappa how much the Zormites have influenced his life.

Aethorpe
01-01-2005, 10:32 PM
This has nothing to do with old people vs. new people. This has to do with whether the kingdoms and their people roleplay or not.

No, we don't tolerate it when people in role-playing kingdoms do not roleplay.

CP doesn't tolerate people that DO roleplay in the roleplaying kingdom.

::Notes that a certain pirate, carrying the title of "Assassin", was removed from CP for "PKing on tag", even while this very person was RPing as they were doing so.::

Nappa
01-01-2005, 10:47 PM
A strong alliance is not the same as both of them functioning the same. They have entirely different roleplaying setups and styles. As different as CP and forest. I prefer the human/medieval/fantasy type kingdom, to roleplay in greatly to that of a republic. That is my personal preference. People who prefer differently, of course, are in zormite. Then there are people who prefer to complain about everything, and like you, they are not in any kingdom.


Their not completely different, at all. They are both monarchy's, but one just puts the name "republic" after it's name.

Oh and by the way, I am in Forest, fool.

Aethorpe
01-01-2005, 10:49 PM
Are you sure about that? I haven't heard of Forest doing anything that major with the other kingdoms...in a long time. I am not trying to bash forest, or any of the kingdoms, but I do think you are being short sighted if you can't see how game mechanics have effected the game in general. So instead of simplistic responses there should be a constructive forum on how to improve roleplaying in GK.

On the front of CP and roleplaying, I do think that it could be more fun if they engaged in piracy more often, it was easier in GP day when CP struck fear with good reason into all the kingdoms. Today, the other kingdoms are all pretty strong and can't be so easily threatened, but some good skirmishes would be a nice idea.

Game mechanics only affect so much, yes, the game was better for RP when everyone was about level 5, but let's consider this, that's because they had no other options, brute force was unheard of, now, there is an option, because people are more powerful. If people wanted to roleplay, they would have to have the willpower to choose the less popular option, that is, to roleplay, the pace of the game picked up when people stopping having to struggle to acomplish anything, it picked up to the point were no one stopped to smell the flowers, so to speak, to enjoy their surroundings, now their only drive is to be better killers. So, I suggest that all kingdoms outcast powerplayers, anyone who's primary motive is to get the better weapon, and have the best armor, etc, people who standing around the marketplace buying diamonds to prep the infernos and the hammers and the FIDs, rather than going out, and being content with an unprepped weapon.

Do you really think it takes -50 or more WC to kill T-Rex? Pfft, no way, the only reason you would actively seek more than -30 wc is if you were a powerplayer bent on PK, because beyond -30, it's redundant, same goes for AC, -30 and you're not going to be getting hit by much of anything. I am talking these being maximums, if people lose the challenge and the struggle, they get lazy, and they become what we see today.

I've seen alot of innocent noobs who had more RP potential and common sense than all the server's oldbie power players combined. I challenge the entire GK server to take off their RoWs, RoS, RoC, whatever, and all thier PMoP, and Event this, and event that, and put it in a bag and store it for later, then take a week or so, and try playing from scratch, don't reset your character, but I mean, just as far as items, and play tendencies, try to go out and work for your own things, rather than waiting around the trade room for good deals, go mine and craft yourself a weapon, put a +1-2 blessing on it, then go struggle for a while, smell the flowers, look around. Alot of times, the simplest life is the most fullfilling.

GoZelda
01-01-2005, 10:59 PM
Oh and by the way, I am in Forest, fool.
Foo'

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 01:08 AM
Their not completely different, at all. They are both monarchy's, but one just puts the name "republic" after it's name.

Oh and by the way, I am in Forest, fool.


You can say that over and over but it doesn't make it so. The diversity between Zormite and Dustari is no different than the diversity between Dustari and Forest, or CP, or anywhere.

And congrats on getting into a kingdom.

Game mechanics only affect so much, yes, the game was better for RP when everyone was about level 5, but let's consider this, that's because they had no other options, brute force was unheard of, now, there is an option, because people are more powerful.

I totally agree with you, most people agree that when people were about lvl 5 or so it was much better.


If people wanted to roleplay, they would have to have the willpower to choose the less popular option, that is, to roleplay, the pace of the game picked up when people stopping having to struggle to acomplish anything, it picked up to the point were no one stopped to smell the flowers, so to speak, to enjoy their surroundings, now their only drive is to be better killers.

First, its not a willpower issue, because when people were lvl 5, there was still a game mechanic element to solve victories and such, where players could work together, roleplay, and with some skill and tactics, win in a respectable fashion. If we didn't have any game mechanic factors, how would you determine the winner of any war? Typing *cuts off head* doesn't amount to a way to determine victory.


So, I suggest that all kingdoms outcast powerplayers, anyone who's primary motive is to get the better weapon, and have the best armor, etc, people who standing around the marketplace buying diamonds to prep the infernos and the hammers and the FIDs, rather than going out, and being content with an unprepped weapon.

The people of that strength level in dustari have only doen so for one reason: to defend the kingdom, because whether you like it or not, people will always have to deal with high level players, often not in any kingdom, who will distrupt and harass other players. Second, where do you cut off 'powerplayer' by definition? Level 29? Level 30?


Do you really think it takes -50 or more WC to kill T-Rex? Pfft, no way, the only reason you would actively seek more than -30 wc is if you were a powerplayer bent on PK, because beyond -30, it's redundant, same goes for AC, -30 and you're not going to be getting hit by much of anything. I am talking these being maximums, if people lose the challenge and the struggle, they get lazy, and they become what we see today.

You need to defeat Pkers, or they will PK you. It did happen in the past, not even other kingdom members at all, and it was very distruptive when someone PKs half the royal family during an event in Borea or such.


I've seen alot of innocent noobs who had more RP potential and common sense than all the server's oldbie power players combined. I challenge the entire GK server to take off their RoWs, RoS, RoC, whatever, and all thier PMoP, and Event this, and event that, and put it in a bag and store it for later, then take a week or so, and try playing from scratch, don't reset your character, but I mean, just as far as items, and play tendencies, try to go out and work for your own things, rather than waiting around the trade room for good deals, go mine and craft yourself a weapon, put a +1-2 blessing on it, then go struggle for a while, smell the flowers, look around. Alot of times, the simplest life is the most fullfilling.

I personally would like to see both GK reset, and the item base changed drastically. XP should be adjusted too. I would like it best if weapons were made in smithies, not purchased with event coins, and if you had something as rare as armor from your god, you'd have to be a truly powerful priest, not just some barb with lit and piety. I want roleplaying to improve now though, not wait until they finally break down and reset the server...if that ever even would happen.

Zurkiba
01-02-2005, 02:09 AM
Just ignore my response -_-

None the less, Graal Kingdom's game mechanics wont be fixed. I've tried to change them for three years now and there is still no luck. Apparently the higher staff dont care about 2k2.

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 04:03 AM
Sorry Zurk, your post was the last on the page and I missed it....

Zoe is a hypocrite or a bug exploiter. Zoe told me that I need to get a life, and that Graal is only a game.


Wrong, sorry. If you harassed me as much as you have her, I would likely have told you to get a life as well.

I have a lot of hours on Graal Kingdoms, which must mean I should be higher then level 6 right?

Depends on when you last played. At the time of the fall of the Astri, lvl 6 was average. It also depends on what you do with your time. I am a lower level than most other players by todays standards.


How does Zoe's level influence the number of roleplayers in the game? It doesn't. If anything it deters people from roleplaying in general. Because of players like her there are no wars and therefore roleplaying slowly dies.

You do realize that PK guilds of players who got bored with Era, with tags like (Gangstas) would constantly try to PK entire kingdoms worth of players and pretty much ruin events and anything else. It was people like Zoe that helped marginalize these types.


Obviously you fail to understand that the current state is not roleplaying. 'OMG IT WAS MAGIC AND NOW WE'RE HUMANS! OMG!' wow, nice roleplaying there.

You sure can slam be good when you put your words in my mouth...Zormite has easy RP transition options, for instance, the ancient zormites live on their kingdom, trade begins, human trade settlements appear, humans become more integrated, old zormites begin to die off because of environmental or other problems.



Funny, I could've swore the Zormite Empire of 2k1 did perfectly fine. In fact I believe it became the most active kingdom on 2k1 and conquered the world. Gasp! No you're right, being a fish would never work and it ruins roleplaying and the state of Zormite in general.

That was 2k1. Now, if you can explain how you can recruit players to a kingdom of people who are forced to wear ugly fish heads that were very poorly drawn, without using 'great rping' like 'OMG IT WAS MAGIC AND NOW WE'RE FISH PEOPLE! OMG!' do tell.


Obstructionist? Hardly. If you listened to me then we wouldn't be in this mess.

Huge difference between thinking you are right, and being right.


If you couldn't tell I'm a very aggressive person. Ergo I fix problems the way I know best, through aggression. Why?.. because the leaders of today do not understand what their kingdom is.

I can be aggressive myself, but I try to be sure its 'my business' first. You should too. Why?.. because the wanna-be leaders of yesterday do not understand what our kingdoms are.


We are not brainstorming here. The point of the thread is to discuss if Cresent Pirates are going downhill. It went far off track with discussions such as this. But the conversations had to be in this thread because the corruption over at the Dustari forums just flooded the ideas of all elsewhere.

Do tell, what charges of corruption are these? This was about CP and if they are going down hill, and some constructive ideas to help them and the rest of GK. The brainstorming was about making things..........better, instead of recirculating yesterday's trashload of excuses of problems.


It is you are the obstructionist. Along with you are some of the other kingdom leaders. The kingdom leaders are directly responsible for the outcome of the roleplaying community of Graal Kingdoms and you have failed.

I have worked hard to improve roleplaying, and am even happy to work with people like you, if you would work with us instead of making stupid excuses.


You fail to understand that a person with KAD rights can not remove a person from a kingdom.

You fail to understand when nobody at all wants you in a kingdom, you are pretty effectively not a member.


Do you think I am not a Dustarian? Far from it. I am more Dustarian than you are. I still believe myself to be within the kingdom. The same is with Nappa and the Zormites. Why dont you ask Nappa how much the Zormites have influenced his life.

You're belief is wrong, no one in dustari wants you, and I assure you know one in zormite wants nappa. I don't care if had a huge influence on Nappa's life, he doesn't get to stalk them, berate them, and try to get them all to wear fish masks.

The sooner both of you accept that A) Zormite is not a fishhead kingdom (it had a chance actually but people like you ruined it with the constant fishhead and fish-fry remarks that made it really lame) and that B) no matter how aggressive you are you will not convince people to implement bad ideas, no matter how strongly you stand by them - the sooner you can constructively add to GK and stop obstructing it.

You say, nerph XP by a percent, I say, that is fine with me and I had the same idea, but I don't have a magic wand nor do I have an automatic consensus of all graalian players. So, since I know you are smart use that brain and come up with some ideas that [i]can work and are about solutions, instead of just weak snips about how much you don't like zormite and dustari.

Zurkiba
01-02-2005, 05:36 AM
Wrong, sorry. If you harassed me as much as you have her, I would likely have told you to get a life as well.
You fail to understand the point I was making in that statement.


You do realize that PK guilds of players who got bored with Era, with tags like (Gangstas) would constantly try to PK entire kingdoms worth of players and pretty much ruin events and anything else. It was people like Zoe that helped marginalize these types.
I'd rather have a roleplaying system then having a no-pker world. The day Dustari is invaded is the day that roleplaying takes a leap upwards.


You sure can slam be good when you put your words in my mouth...Zormite has easy RP transition options, for instance, the ancient zormites live on their kingdom, trade begins, human trade settlements appear, humans become more integrated, old zormites begin to die off because of environmental or other problems.
I did not put words in your mouth. I was mocking the Zormite state.

Here is another story, 'we couldn't make up a good story so we just say that zormites evolved into humans'.

The simple fact is this, Zormite is a fish kingdom rather you like it or not. It is something you nor Aki can change. You fail to understand that.



That was 2k1. Now, if you can explain how you can recruit players to a kingdom of people who are forced to wear ugly fish heads that were very poorly drawn, without using 'great rping' like 'OMG IT WAS MAGIC AND NOW WE'RE FISH PEOPLE! OMG!' do tell.
If you hadn't noticed, 2k1 and 2k2's roleplaying enviroments are supposed to be the same.

In all roleplaying standards, the Zormites would've always been Fishes. There is a reason why the current 'Zormite' Republic isn't in my history records.


Huge difference between thinking you are right, and being right.
I can give you a tip on this subject (as arrogant it may sound), I am right. Your opinion can not sway that.


I can be aggressive myself, but I try to be sure its 'my business' first. You should too. Why?.. because the wanna-be leaders of yesterday do not understand what our kingdoms are.
Wanna-be leaders of yesterday? No. I dont have the time to lead a kingdom. My mission is to improve Graal and the roleplaying community of 2k2 but it leaders such as yourself which trash my motives and ruin the good cause.

And the new ****-be leaders of Today refuse to look back and want to rewrite their history and make their own guild. We do understand what the kingdoms are today, -utter crap-.

Apparently Graal Kingdoms wont work if there is not a coming together of the old roleplayers of old and the new leaders of today. Wouldn't you agree?


Do tell, what charges of corruption are these? This was about CP and if they are going down hill, and some constructive ideas to help them and the rest of GK. The brainstorming was about making things..........better, instead of recirculating yesterday's trashload of excuses of problems.
Code of Conduct states that Constructive Criticism is wanted; yet the thread is still closed!


I have worked hard to improve roleplaying, and am even happy to work with people like you, if you would work with us instead of making stupid excuses.
I have tried to work with Dustari and Zoe. But instead I am turned away being called a Racist, Woman Hater, and Anti-American.

I want to work with you all too, but it cant happen if you're not willing to work with me.


You're belief is wrong, no one in dustari wants you, and I assure you know one in zormite wants nappa. I don't care if [insert favorite music band here] had a huge influence on Nappa's life, he doesn't get to stalk them, berate them, and try to get them all to wear fish masks.
Get me a list and I'll believe you. Most dont know who I am. It appears the only person who doesn't want me to be in Dustari (from what I know) is merely Zoe.

If Nappa made that band, was apart of that band, and got sick and had to leave the band for five years. Wouldn't you agree that the band has influenced his life? What he had worked so hard on for ages still around and you dont think he should still be apart of that? -That- is where your reasoning crumbles.


The sooner both of you accept that A) Zormite is not a fishhead kingdom (it had a chance actually but people like you ruined it with the constant fishhead and fish-fry remarks that made it really lame) and that B) no matter how aggressive you are you will not convince people to implement bad ideas, no matter how strongly you stand by them - the sooner you can constructively add to GK and stop obstructing it.
A) Zormite -is- a Fish Kingdom
B) Yeah because improving the roleplaying system is a bad idea

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 06:37 AM
Zurk, Zurk, Zurk. First, I don't see that much Constructive Criticism coming from you, just rehashing of old, finished topics like the failed desire to see Zormite be a kingdom of fish people. That issue was settled, a long time ago. Hijacking threads and starting new threads regularily to rehash old completed debates is an example of spamming and is actually against the code of conduct.

The fact is, game mechanics was an important element back in your time, on 2k1, and is still to this day. The problem is that people can level up to very high levels, which is primarily to provide player retension, to increase playtime - the real retension feature shouldn't be the prospect of hitting lvl 110, but the community and roleplaying. Still, not all of GK (much of GK actually) is in any kingdom, and is not part of that RP community, so its a feature none the less.

Still, I ask if you can give me one example of a way a human player can be recruited by zormite and forced into fishness that has some RPish sense about it.


If Nappa made that band, was apart of that band, and got sick and had to leave the band for five years. Wouldn't you agree that the band has influenced his life? What he had worked so hard on for ages still around and you dont think he should still be apart of that? -That- is where your reasoning crumbles.


If he quit the band, he quit the band. If the band improves itself over the next 5 years, does new things, gets a new style, sorry, if Nappa left he left. He can't walk in 4 years later and act like he's the boss and can tell everyone what to do - those band members put five years of their life into its development and Nappa would have no right to tell them to do things his way or walk away from all they have done and worked for.

-That- is where your reasoning crumbles. There is no reason on Earth you can say that is not so.

I don't care what you think Zormite -should- be you need to accept how it -is- and will be until such time as the players in it -want- to change it...its up to them, not you, not me, and certianly not nappa.

Also, it bothers me you don't want to put in the time to lead a nation, but do want to tell everyone how to run them according to your untested, ill founded ideas of what will work. If you want to work with kingdom leaders, then lets work together.
I am actually working to improve RPing right now - in all the kingdoms - and have posted threads for interkingdom plot lines that we can develop and try to actually get some things rolling. Get over your control issues and try to come up with some solutions that can be put into place, and if you don't have what it takes and want to just say the tired old 'well the GK staff don't care so nothing can be done' way out, then don't critize ad nauseum those of us trying to actually make the place better.

Nappa
01-02-2005, 08:59 AM
If he quit the band, he quit the band. If the band improves itself over the next 5 years, does new things, gets a new style, sorry, if Nappa left he left. He can't walk in 4 years later and act like he's the boss and can tell everyone what to do - those band members put five years of their life into its development and Nappa would have no right to tell them to do things his way or walk away from all they have done and worked for.

That is where your reasoning is flawed - I never quit Zormite. Zormite was removed forcefully from the server I played on and was changed instantly before my eyes. It's not like "oh they evolved 3 minutes later when it was thrown onto 2k2". I have been pushing fish heads SINCE ZORMITE WAS MOVED. (Oh and look at that, Moved, not CREATED)

-That- is where your reasoning crumbles. There is no reason on Earth you can say that is not so.

Not really, since I never quit. I am one of the only true Zormite members to the end.

I don't care what you think Zormite -should- be you need to accept how it -is- and will be until such time as the players in it -want- to change it...its up to them, not you, not me, and certianly not nappa.

When do you represent the players ? Did you somehow become the leader of all the united players of this game ? No.. Changing Zormite not only ruins it for the members of Zormite but it removes roleplaying aspect from the game in general, thus hurting MY gameplay. So I as a PLAYER of the game, should have a say, no ?

Also, it bothers me you don't want to put in the time to lead a nation, but do want to tell everyone how to run them according to your untested, ill founded ideas of what will work. If you want to work with kingdom leaders, then lets work together.

I don't need to become a baker to tell you you can't make a cake, and that you should give it more sugar. I don't have to lead your nation to tell you your doing something wrong. As Zurkiba has been SAYING IN EVERY POST HE HAS MADE he has been trying to work with the kingdom leaders.

I am actually working to improve RPing right now - in all the kingdoms - and have posted threads for interkingdom plot lines that we can develop and try to actually get some things rolling. Get over your control issues and try to come up with some solutions that can be put into place, and if you don't have what it takes and want to just say the tired old 'well the GK staff don't care so nothing can be done' way out, then don't critize ad nauseum those of us trying to actually make the place better.

We have come up with solutions, but all you have done is argue against them and not come up with your own.

Zurkiba
01-02-2005, 10:27 AM
Still, I ask if you can give me one example of a way a human player can be recruited by zormite and forced into fishness that has some RPish sense about it.
It's the same on how people can just magically forge an age. Characters are made. Each time I recruited for Zormite a new character was formed with a new name and personality.

So since I answered your question. Why dont you give me some logical explainations. How would the Zormites magically become Human? Why they would keep the name. And why they would generate a completely new culture?

If there was a merge of kingdoms, why isn't Zormite a melting pot of them all? If Humans took over the island why hasn't the castle on 2k1 reconquered the island?

How come the Zormites are allies with Dustari? Zormite has always hated Dustari, always warred against it. Why is it different on 2k2? How come the Zormites aren't friends with Samurai? After all the Zormites and Samurai colonized the new world at the same time, both together (the Samurai were but a vassal of the Zormite Empire)

As for the other points, Nappa has answered them just fine, I will not repeat what he has said.

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 10:55 AM
It's the same on how people can just magically forge an age. Characters are made. Each time I recruited for Zormite a new character was formed with a new name and personality.

That is a rather bad idea - people don't like to just drop a character they have developed most of the time. Please try to find a working solution.


So since I answered your question. Why dont you give me some logical explainations. How would the Zormites magically become Human? Why they would keep the name. And why they would generate a completely new culture?

I already stated that...its easy. Just try this: Zormite race settles civilization, they are zenophobic at first, but adjust over time, humans come to the land as traders, end up making up a large portion of the civiliation, and due to factors that don't affect the humans, the zormites steadily die off. The culture stays largely the same, until of course the republic was born, but Zen has documented that enough and I don't need to rehash it.

If there was a merge of kingdoms, why isn't Zormite a melting pot of them all? If Humans took over the island why hasn't the castle on 2k1 reconquered the island?

Zormite is a melting pot of humans that over time integrated into Zormite culture. They were at peace with each other and there would be no reason for 2k1 zormites to attack. Besides, 2k1 is totally dead/inactive...so maybe a plague or something swept that whole land, or maybe a moon of bomies fell on it.

How come the Zormites are allies with Dustari? Zormite has always hated Dustari, always warred against it. Why is it different on 2k2? How come the Zormites aren't friends with Samurai? After all the Zormites and Samurai colonized the new world at the same time, both together (the Samurai were but a vassal of the Zormite Empire)

First, if Samurai was a vassal of the Zormites, there is the answer to your question: as you learned first hand, you can't make other nations vassals and expect them not to try and take you down first chance they get. During most of the time after you left GK, Samurai was pretty much considered a barbarian horde, a waste land without culture. It was the easiest way to explain the total lack of government or discipline.
Dustari and Zormite forged its alliance most strongly during the time that you yourself were attacking us both. Nothing like a common enemy to make good allies. You were a larger threat to either nation than either of us could be to each other. But I believe, under Charles' reign, we actually had some good relations with Zormite. But think for a moment - why are we allies with half the nations in the world today in real life? We were at war with Spain, with Germany, with Japan, with the British. You can hardly say that it is some sort of stretch for Zormite and Dustari to be allies. You yourself fault Samurai for breaking its alliance with you - when you forced that alliance on them...by means of war. You are really grasping at straws here, its insane to say that any two nations in GK can not ally no matter how many years pass. It has no room for the RP developments that have occured over that time.

As for the other points, Nappa has answered them just fine, I will not repeat what he has said.
Can you quote them? I rarely see any relevance in any of his posts, they tend to be kind of nonsensical. If you want me to address something print it.

So, 1) please come up with a better way than forcing a player to drop their entire character when joining 'your' version of zormite and coming up with a whole new personality.
2) Reread my points regarding the 'band analogy' and tell me how you can still consider nappa having any say in the direction of zormite.
3) Reread the very old posts where this issue was long ago settled, and when you are done, try to come back and be helpful and aid RPing in GK instead of hindering it.

GoZelda
01-02-2005, 01:14 PM
Do tell, what charges of corruption are these?
Let's see. Closing a thread with no reason, continuing arguing after you've already closed a thread so you get the last word because else you can't win.

You're belief is wrong, no one in dustari wants you, and I assure you know one in zormite wants nappa.
And why would this be? Not because they would be bad members. No, it's more like, 1 or 2 people up there who can't stand them being right and better than them.

The sooner both of you accept that A) Zormite is not a fishhead kingdom (it had a chance actually but people like you ruined it with the constant fishhead and fish-fry remarks that made it really lame)
I accept Zormite is no fish kingdom. Then what is it? It has nothing to make it different from Dustari, except that it's called a Republic.


B) no matter how aggressive you are you will not convince people to implement bad ideas, no matter how strongly you stand by them - the sooner you can constructively add to GK and stop obstructing it.
Perhaps you should try to accept that.


instead of just weak snips about how much you don't like zormite and dustari.
He never said he didn't like Zormite and Dustari. On 2k1.


If he quit the band, he quit the band. If the band improves itself over the next 5 years, does new things, gets a new style, sorry, if Nappa left he left. He can't walk in 4 years later and act like he's the boss and can tell everyone what to do - those band members put five years of their life into its development and Nappa would have no right to tell them to do things his way or walk away from all they have done and worked for.
What if the band goes downhill instead?

That is a rather bad idea - people don't like to just drop a character they have developed most of the time.
Except that 'people' don't have a character most of the time. Please, get Zoe to send me her RP profile. Oh wait. There is no such thing, and the 'RP profile' in her head is probably something like 'Female, Queen of Dustar1'

Just try this: Zormite race settles civilization,
How would you settle a civilization? :\

end up making up a large portion of the civiliation
So, how come most of the Zormite culture (which is a part of civilization, whether you like it or not) hasn't been affected by this? The humans had no culture? But how come Zormite's culture, which is nihil anyway, looks nothing like Zormite on 2k1's culture? It should be the same.

but Zen has documented that enough and I don't need to rehash it.
Could you send those documents to me?

I rarely see any relevance in any of his posts, they tend to be kind of nonsensical.
The fact that you don't understand them doesn't mean they're nonsensical.

If you want me to address something print it.
Scroll down then.

So, 1) please come up with a better way than forcing a player to drop their entire character when joining 'your' version of zormite and coming up with a whole new personality
What 'entire character'? They usually don't have a character.

2) Reread my points regarding the 'band analogy' and tell me how you can still consider nappa having any say in the direction of zormite
He still has a say in Zormite, but not in Dustari Jr.

3) Reread the very old posts where this issue was long ago settled, and when you are done, try to come back and be helpful and aid RPing in GK instead of hindering it.
If you want me to adress something, print it.

Zurkiba
01-02-2005, 06:05 PM
That is a rather bad idea - people don't like to just drop a character they have developed most of the time. Please try to find a working solution.
Apparently people do drop their "characters" (if you want to call random PKing and running around screaming 'ne1 gotz 1?' a character) to join a Kingdom. Eventually if they want they will join an established family.

So just how did the Sagesun family grow? You want to know how the Warhare Family grew? The wife became pregant, her bomy took her to places.

How does a person join Forest? They're not human, they're elf!

How did Zurkiba become a member of Dustari? His parents were soldiers in the Dustarian army, both died in the Dustari-Zormite war, Axel goes running off in fear and confusion about his parents. Zurkiba searches for him (and various trainings in the sciences and spending time with a retired Warrior) to later return as an adult with Axel.

If I were to join Zormite and they were fishes, this is what my story would be:
I came over from the Castle on the old lands.

Amazing, see how complex and difficult that was?


I already stated that...its easy. Just try this: Zormite race settles civilization, they are zenophobic at first, but adjust over time, humans come to the land as traders, end up making up a large portion of the civiliation, and due to factors that don't affect the humans, the zormites steadily die off. The culture stays largely the same, until of course the republic was born, but Zen has documented that enough and I don't need to rehash it.
I asked for a logical answer...

Why wouldn't it be the 2k1 culture?.. and more importantly, why would they be assimiliated into the Zormite culture? We're not talking hundreds and hundreds of years here. It would be similiar to the Jewish community being assimiliated by American culture, it just doesn't work.



Zormite is a melting pot of humans that over time integrated into Zormite culture. They were at peace with each other and there would be no reason for 2k1 zormites to attack. Besides, 2k1 is totally dead/inactive...so maybe a plague or something swept that whole land, or maybe a moon of bomies fell on it.
Yet again, this wasn't hundreds of years.

We have all of the survivors of the metorite crash on the old lands settling in the new lands. This rules out billions of years of evolution and what not. The Zormites were declared a human state within the second week or so of Graal Kingdoms.

You do not know the story of 2k1 then. Just because a book is never read does not mean there is no story. In a roleplaying sense, 2k1 is very much alive. The nations are rebuilding after being scattered. The only nation that does -not- have to rebuild are the Zormites. The Zormites were the only kingdom which stayed, which left few reminants of the other kingdoms to merge and rebuild. Nation of Bellasera, Dustari and Pirates worked together. Malenth, Dustari and Samurai worked together (Dustari being dominate).

The Zormites only suffered a small food issue in their shelters at home and the two Emperors died. The Council of Elders would've selected a new Emperor and the Zormites would've grown stronger then ever without human competition.

So since you get to make up oddball roleplaying excuses
*launches the magical nuclear missile at Zormite and all the humans die expect the Zormite fishes*
Yey for me! The Fish reign supreme now!


First, if Samurai was a vassal of the Zormites, there is the answer to your question: as you learned first hand, you can't make other nations vassals and expect them not to try and take you down first chance they get. During most of the time after you left GK, Samurai was pretty much considered a barbarian horde, a waste land without culture. It was the easiest way to explain the total lack of government or discipline.
Dustari and Zormite forged its alliance most strongly during the time that you yourself were attacking us both. Nothing like a common enemy to make good allies. You were a larger threat to either nation than either of us could be to each other. But I believe, under Charles' reign, we actually had some good relations with Zormite. But think for a moment - why are we allies with half the nations in the world today in real life? We were at war with Spain, with Germany, with Japan, with the British. You can hardly say that it is some sort of stretch for Zormite and Dustari to be allies. You yourself fault Samurai for breaking its alliance with you - when you forced that alliance on them...by means of war. You are really grasping at straws here, its insane to say that any two nations in GK can not ally no matter how many years pass. It has no room for the RP developments that have occured over that time.
If you would recall history, you would discover that my diplomatic skills broke up the Dustari-Zormite alliance. Why is it that when we invaded the Zormite island no Dustarians showed up? Why is it that when we invaded the Dustari island no Zormites showed up?

I was able to break each kingdom apart, and leave it the only grape on the vine. Then I plucked that grape. That was the genius of Astri.

Dustari and Zormite allied themselves dude to prior diplomacy. You dont understand that the Zormite Empire was a vassal under Dustari for like a year. Zyko revolted but he later died.


Can you quote them? I rarely see any relevance in any of his posts, they tend to be kind of nonsensical. If you want me to address something print it.
Then you are blind.


So, 1) please come up with a better way than forcing a player to drop their entire character when joining 'your' version of zormite and coming up with a whole new personality.
Answered


2) Reread my points regarding the 'band analogy' and tell me how you can still consider nappa having any say in the direction of zormite.
With your own logic you believe that Ghost Pirate shouldn't have any say in the Cresent Pirates, yes? You can not sit there and tell me if Ghost Pirate were to return that he would have -no- say in what happens in the Pirate Kingdom. That man created the kingdom, and that man stayed with the kingdom for years.


3) Reread the very old posts where this issue was long ago settled, and when you are done, try to come back and be helpful and aid RPing in GK instead of hindering it.
The issue was not settled, that is why there are still "Zormites" running around as Dustarian Jrs.

Evil_Lord_Sparda
01-02-2005, 07:26 PM
If you would recall history, you would discover that my diplomatic skills broke up the Dustari-Zormite alliance. Why is it that when we invaded the Zormite island no Dustarians showed up? Why is it that when we invaded the Dustari island no Zormites showed up?

I can't speak for the later battles, because as a European they took place too late for myself, but earlier on myself and a few other Dustarians came to the aid of some Zormite's who were being besieged by some Astri led by Excalibur.

Then, when news reached Dustarians that you were indeed planning an attack on Zormite, those Online decided to mount a Pre-emptive strike against you. However, you wouldn't accept this and Larrien wouldn't let it go ahead anyway.

Obviously these were but small skirmishes, but it does show that Dustarians were willing to help the Zormites.

Zurkiba
01-02-2005, 08:02 PM
I can't speak for the later battles, because as a European they took place too late for myself, but earlier on myself and a few other Dustarians came to the aid of some Zormite's who were being besieged by some Astri led by Excalibur.

Then, when news reached Dustarians that you were indeed planning an attack on Zormite, those Online decided to mount a Pre-emptive strike against you. However, you wouldn't accept this and Larrien wouldn't let it go ahead anyway.

Obviously these were but small skirmishes, but it does show that Dustarians were willing to help the Zormites.
I tried to get the battles around 12pm EST So that everyone could enjoy them.

At the time Aftershock was King, at the time there was a Duke by the name of Bitty. He personally held back the Dustarian troops from assisting the Zormites.

Astri invaded Dustari around the time that Aftershock stepped down and Larrien came to power. I had known Larrien for some while as the Royal Scribe Larrien Harris, he never had a lot of leadership experience. We took advantage of that and it proved to have worked (man I would rule as a General). Then it's a little known fact, but Dustari was a major ally of Astri. Dustari actually sent troops to Astri's aid.

The only battles that counted were the single sweeping battles. When entire armies were destroyed.

Nappa
01-02-2005, 10:21 PM
Wow.. Great defence against my statements.. "I don't care what nappa says". Yipee!

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 11:13 PM
Let's see. Closing a thread with no reason, continuing arguing after you've already closed a thread so you get the last word because else you can't win.

Send me a forum PM with some of these links that I have done this, if you can find any.

And why would this be? Not because they would be bad members. No, it's more like, 1 or 2 people up there who can't stand them being right and better than them.

One or two people? You would be hard pressed to find anyone in Zormite that would like nappa to join that kingdom, and same with Dustari and Zurkiba.

I accept Zormite is no fish kingdom. Then what is it? It has nothing to make it different from Dustari, except that it's called a Republic.

By that definition there is nothing different between Dustari and Forest either, except its called a kingdom of elves and has different rank titles. Its all in how you RP so buck up and try it.

Perhaps you should try to accept that.

I have long since accepted people won't implement zurk's bad ideas.


He never said he didn't like Zormite and Dustari. On 2k1.

2k1 is dead. When people say 'Dustari' or 'Zormite' they are not talking about 2k1, obviously.


What if the band goes downhill instead?

What if its more successful than ever but has slightly evolved its style of music?


Except that 'people' don't have a character most of the time. Please, get Zoe to send me her RP profile. Oh wait. There is no such thing, and the 'RP profile' in her head is probably something like 'Female, Queen of Dustar1'

Zoe does have an RP character and profile, as do myself and most of the higher ranking Dustarians. I have helped many newer members make them as well, and always discuss their characters with them, to ensure they know proper RPing.



How would you settle a civilization? :\

Duh, how do Zormites come to 2k2? They do 'that' first - that is all that is referring to. Don't be such a nit picker.


So, how come most of the Zormite culture (which is a part of civilization, whether you like it or not) hasn't been affected by this? The humans had no culture? But how come Zormite's culture, which is nihil anyway, looks nothing like Zormite on 2k1's culture? It should be the same.

It has developed over time, not to mention if the percentages of old zormites and humans shift a lot towards the humans, then obviously there will be change. As for human culture, of course they made their own contributions but they were entering a larger cultural body. You obviously don't care as you say Zormite culture is nil now anyway, so you aren't even open to the facts.


Could you send those documents to me?

Check the stickies in the zormite forum, and search backwards for older posts in there.


The fact that you don't understand them doesn't mean they're nonsensical.

The fact that they are nonsensical doesn't mean they are beyond my understanding.

Usually he posts disjointed tyrades depending on what he's upset about at any given moment, but its just rehashing long since closed arguments. I listened the first time, the second time, even the third or so I still listened and tried to reason with him, but he often posts completely irrelevant crude insults that have nothing to do with anything other than an attempt to tick off those he doesn't like. When he does say something specific its usually a repeat of the same dead arguments of a very long time ago.


What 'entire character'? They usually don't have a character.

We do in Dustari. Its called Roleplaying.


He still has a say in Zormite, but not in Dustari Jr.

He can offer input and suggestions, but he does not have any dictatoral veto power to tell them all what to do and force them to do everything his way. If someone goes to a town hall meeting, makes a suggestion, gets overruled, if they insist on disrupting all further proceedings because they didn't get their way, they get arrested.


If you want me to adress something, print it.

You? that entire post was talking to Zurkiba. He is rehashing long dead arguments that have been settled, so he could benefit from reading up on them.

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 11:55 PM
Apparently people do drop their "characters" (if you want to call random PKing and running around screaming 'ne1 gotz 1?' a character) to join a Kingdom. Eventually if they want they will join an established family.

Its called going off tag, and being out of character, something you did yourself. You are trolling if you want to pretend you are not familiar with it.


So just how did the Sagesun family grow? You want to know how the Warhare Family grew? The wife became pregant, her bomy took her to places.

Marriage, adoption, children, new characters. In fact, Ana started out playing a rather young child RP wise for a good while.


How does a person join Forest? They're not human, they're elf!

Tell someone "Hey, you can start a new character as a cool elf" and they'll be interested. Tell someone "Hey, join zormite and have people like zurk make fish jokes constantly at your expense, reek of the smell of fish constantly, and be forced to wear the ugliest fish head you can imagine" and people will, I would say, pass. In other words: It could kill zormite.


How did Zurkiba become a member of Dustari? His parents were soldiers in the Dustarian army, both died in the Dustari-Zormite war, Axel goes running off in fear and confusion about his parents. Zurkiba searches for him (and various trainings in the sciences and spending time with a retired Warrior) to later return as an adult with Axel.

Good for you. I became a member after I enlisted as a soldier, having little success as a blacksmith and merchant guardsmen on main. Ana was born there, Zoe and her sister were immigrants. Out of curiousity who asked how Zurkiba became a member of Dustari?


If I were to join Zormite and they were fishes, this is what my story would be:
I came over from the Castle on the old lands.

Amazing, see how complex and difficult that was?

Except that Zormite isn't a race of fish people anymore. It is simply very unappealing to be a smelly ugly fish who's sole purpose appears to be a butt for your every fish fry joke.

I asked for a logical answer...

twas why I gave one.


Why wouldn't it be the 2k1 culture?.. and more importantly, why would they be assimiliated into the Zormite culture? We're not talking hundreds and hundreds of years here. It would be similiar to the Jewish community being assimiliated by American culture, it just doesn't work.

Depends on the percentages of course, it is a logical transition. You could of course be constructive, and if you don't like it, try to find a better means by which 2k2 zormite is a human kingdom, with its current culture. Then you can propose that to zormite, and if they happen to like it, perhaps they'd adopt it.


Yet again, this wasn't hundreds of years.

We have all of the survivors of the metorite crash on the old lands settling in the new lands. This rules out billions of years of evolution and what not. The Zormites were declared a human state within the second week or so of Graal Kingdoms.

Time in RPGs is of course, rather hard to play out. You can say that the Astri existed for far less than a year, that all of the history between 2k1 and now is no longer than 4 years total. That would of course, mess up the age of anyone who has played a character that has aged...more than 4 years since 2k1. Darwinian evolution never factored, of course...where did you get that idea?


You do not know the story of 2k1 then. Just because a book is never read does not mean there is no story. In a roleplaying sense, 2k1 is very much alive. The nations are rebuilding after being scattered. The only nation that does -not- have to rebuild are the Zormites. The Zormites were the only kingdom which stayed, which left few reminants of the other kingdoms to merge and rebuild. Nation of Bellasera, Dustari and Pirates worked together. Malenth, Dustari and Samurai worked together (Dustari being dominate).

The Zormites only suffered a small food issue in their shelters at home and the two Emperors died. The Council of Elders would've selected a new Emperor and the Zormites would've grown stronger then ever without human competition.

So since you get to make up oddball roleplaying excuses
*launches the magical nuclear missile at Zormite and all the humans die expect the Zormite fishes*
Yey for me! The Fish reign supreme now!


2k1 is dead, it has no players. It is history. And a disease or plague that effects the original zormites (they would have a different physiology than humans of course) is hardly odd ball.
Whether you like it or not, Zormite is not a race of fish people on GK. It never will be unless people IN Zormite choose to change their minds.


If you would recall history, you would discover that my diplomatic skills broke up the Dustari-Zormite alliance. Why is it that when we invaded the Zormite island no Dustarians showed up? Why is it that when we invaded the Dustari island no Zormites showed up?

I was able to break each kingdom apart, and leave it the only grape on the vine. Then I plucked that grape. That was the genius of Astri.

LOL that was not diplomacy, that was the fact you had defeated us in battle and we could not overtly support Zormite, under orders from Larrien, out of fear of retribution. Larrien was clear if we wanted to support Zormites, we could not do so in a fashion that would come to your attention.

Btw, replace grape with apple, vine with branch, Zormite with the USA, and you have the 'genius' of the famous Soviet propaganda flyers.


Dustari and Zormite allied themselves dude to prior diplomacy. You dont understand that the Zormite Empire was a vassal under Dustari for like a year. Zyko revolted but he later died.


You were the one that said they were constantly at war and had no reason for being allied.


Then you are blind.

So far nappa has said things like "No, Zormite and Dustari are basically the same" without actually giving any reasons for it, and still hasn't tried to. If he can't explain the basis of his statement, based on logic that wouldn't pass the exact same way by replacing variables (ie, the logic would have to work for Zormite and Dustari, but not for Dustari and Forest or Dustari and Samurai, etc) then its just his opinion without any backup. His other statements are pretty much the exact same statements he has said before in previous threads that were debated ad nausem, till they were dead. That leaves the other things he often says, which amount to insults, comments about zormite having its nose stuck up dustari's ass and things to that effect, which are plain old troll-bait and pointless crude insults.

I welcome any of nappa's comments that contribute, they are just far and few between.


With your own logic you believe that Ghost Pirate shouldn't have any say in the Cresent Pirates, yes? You can not sit there and tell me if Ghost Pirate were to return that he would have -no- say in what happens in the Pirate Kingdom. That man created the kingdom, and that man stayed with the kingdom for years.

The issue was not settled, that is why there are still "Zormites" running around as Dustarian Jrs.

Ghost Pirate can have a say, but if CP doesn't want to do things his way, sorry, but GP hasn't been playing or even a member of CP in ages. If CP welcomed him back, that is fine. Take a lesson from reality: You start a corporation, it does great, you bring it to new grand heights, you resign, you move on to other things. If years later you want to be involved again in the direction of the company, you need the approval of its board of directors, and possibly a shareholder's vote.

That's life, thats fair, and without some prior contract, its the only way things can work.

busyrobot
01-02-2005, 11:59 PM
Wow.. Great defence against my statements.. "I don't care what nappa says". Yipee!

I never said I don't care what you say, I said you are often saying things that are irrelevant or nonsensical, such as crude insults and declarations of your views as if they were a mandate in themselves.

I don't care about who says what, just what is said, its the only way to have a fair and open debate or evolution of a topic.

That said though, the fish argument is really dead. I don't say that as my opinion, but based on the fact that A) Zormite doesn't want it B) Zormite has control of its own RP destiny. C) Former members, no matter how involved with the early development, can't dictate down the road how things are to be run - they can only make suggestions, and should, if their suggestions are not approved, be civil about it.

GoZelda
01-02-2005, 11:59 PM
Send me a forum PM with some of these links that I have done this, if you can find any.
I see 5 moderators at the Dustari forums. You are one of them, but no one ever said you were corrupt.
Its all in how you RP so buck up and try it.
That's the difference - in Forest they do RP. Perhaps some people in Dustari RP, but unfortunatly not the majority.

What if its more successful than ever but has slightly evolved its style of music?
What if most of the old fans left it and all those still following it are stupid EMO punk types who have no individuality?

I have long since accepted people won't implement zurk's bad ideas.
They're not Zurk's, they're Tyhms or Stefans, possibly Unixmad - it is damned clear the Zormites evolved from Classic's Zorbis.

Check the stickies in the zormite forum, and search backwards for older posts in there.
I can't adress things that aren't printed in the same thread. By doing that, I still am more open to other things then you, because you can't even bring it up to scroll down or up a little.

2k1 is dead. When people say 'Dustari' or 'Zormite' they are not talking about 2k1, obviously.
Or perhaps the fact that this is a subforum of the 2k2 section of Graal Communication center matters? x_x You could have thought of that >_<

The fact that they are nonsensical doesn't mean they are beyond my understanding.
The fact that you interprete them as nonsensical while others don't sure does.

We do in Dustari. Its called Roleplaying.
Then I'd love to see them :)

He can offer input and suggestions, but he does not have any dictatoral veto power to tell them all what to do and force them to do everything his way.
But he doesn't. You seem pretty contradicting to me - first you say GK doesn't RP in general, then you say you made almost all of Dustari RP. You seemed to have shut yourself off of reality whenever someone says that your kingdom doesn't RP, telling us to make suggestions for it to become better but in the meanwhile accusing us of dictatorial veto when most of us agree upon something and suggest it should be done.

If someone goes to a town hall meeting, makes a suggestion, gets overruled, if they insist on disrupting all further proceedings because they didn't get their way, they get arrested.
That's swell. We're not in a town hall though. Besides, decromacy doesn't work in such a small circle.

You?
So? I take the same point of view, I like it.

Nappa
01-03-2005, 12:26 AM
I never said I don't care what you say, I said you are often saying things that are irrelevant or nonsensical, such as crude insults and declarations of your views as if they were a mandate in themselves.

I don't care about who says what, just what is said, its the only way to have a fair and open debate or evolution of a topic.

That said though, the fish argument is really dead. I don't say that as my opinion, but based on the fact that A) Zormite doesn't want it B) Zormite has control of its own RP destiny. C) Former members, no matter how involved with the early development, can't dictate down the road how things are to be run - they can only make suggestions, and should, if their suggestions are not approved, be civil about it.

Funny that you'll argue to others about it ? The fact is, I don't care if the Zormite kingdom stays on 2k2. Just change the name from Zormite to something else. This is no longer zormite, Zormite ended after 2k1. Change the name to "HighPowerLevelPlayersRuleMe Republic" for all I care. But this isn't Zormite. And to think that it is is a damn fallacy. Change to fish, or change your name. Simple as that.

Oh and don't try to tell me that Zormite and humans integrated, because Me and Lance were the last emperors before Zormite was moved. And I made sure as hell all my members hated humans. We would NEVER allow a human to join us. I got so many pms asking if people could join as humans, but I never allowed one, just as noone before me did. To think that 5 minutes later after 2k1 zormite story ended somehow the entire world of Zormite changed is stupid. Zormite was the greatest empire to the end. This little republic is not Zormite.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 12:56 AM
I see 5 moderators at the Dustari forums. You are one of them, but no one ever said you were corrupt.

That's the difference - in Forest they do RP. Perhaps some people in Dustari RP, but unfortunatly not the majority.


What if most of the old fans left it and all those still following it are stupid EMO punk types who have no individuality?


They're not Zurk's, they're Tyhms or Stefans, possibly Unixmad - it is damned clear the Zormites evolved from Classic's Zorbis.


I can't adress things that aren't printed in the same thread. By doing that, I still am more open to other things then you, because you can't even bring it up to scroll down or up a little.


Or perhaps the fact that this is a subforum of the 2k2 section of Graal Communication center matters? x_x You could have thought of that >_<


The fact that you interprete them as nonsensical while others don't sure does.


Then I'd love to see them :)


But he doesn't. You seem pretty contradicting to me - first you say GK doesn't RP in general, then you say you made almost all of Dustari RP. You seemed to have shut yourself off of reality whenever someone says that your kingdom doesn't RP, telling us to make suggestions for it to become better but in the meanwhile accusing us of dictatorial veto when most of us agree upon something and suggest it should be done.


That's swell. We're not in a town hall though. Besides, decromacy doesn't work in such a small circle.


So? I take the same point of view, I like it.

A) If you think people are acting corruptly in a forums, report it to a supermod. Nappa reported me to Lance for instance once, then stefan overruled him.
B) I have never seen forest RP, but I don't assume they don't. I don't expect Forest to justify their existence to me.
C) They could have become a cover band for Barry Manilow for all I care, artistic licence is up to the members, not former members.
D) Stefan has never made any requests or statements asking Zormite to enforce fish head gfx. Nor has Unixmad. They out rank the kingdom leaders, and unless they appoint some other position that also outranks kingdom leaders, then they are the only ones who do. Unless they say it is to be enforced, you have no right to enforce it, anymore than I can force anything on Forest.
E) Sure you can. Its documented history. Its context. Now I can't scroll? Back it up.
F) LOL now you are making faces at me for not defeating your own arguments in the means you would? I stated Zurk hates Dustari, you stated he doesn't hate Dustari...on 2k1. I stated that is irrelevant, as when I or pretty much anyone says Dustari we are not talking about 2k1, but 2k2. So what is your point about subforums? Again, you are looking to argue.
G) There is a such thing as preaching to the choir. If the end result of an argument is shared between people, then those other people rarely effectively pick apart the argument that lead to that conclusion. It doesn't make the argument right, nor does it make the end result right. More people agree with me than agree with you - does that mean I am right? Fact is both sides have people that disagree.
H) I've love to see Forest RP, but I don't. However, its not because Forest doesn't, its because I am not in forest.
I) GK does not in general, RP. I have always enforced, RPing in Dustari. That is not in any way contradictory. I have never opposed people offering suggestions, I have only opposed people trying to enforce their suggestions after they have been discussed and decided against. It would be as bad form as if my vision for say, armor class changes was proposed to stefan, and after he said he had other ideas in mind, if I mindlessly spammed the forums and harassed him and dragged thread after thread off its intended topic to rehash my old idea, trying to bludgeon him into doing things my way.
That and only that, is what I oppose, and it is what Nappa, Zurkiba, and yourself are doing. Its an old old idea, and it was proposed, and decided against. Thats all historical fact.

PS: Sorry to all the pirates who have to see this dumb, long annoying exchange.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 12:57 AM
Funny that you'll argue to others about it ? The fact is, I don't care if the Zormite kingdom stays on 2k2. Just change the name from Zormite to something else. This is no longer zormite, Zormite ended after 2k1. Change the name to "HighPowerLevelPlayersRuleMe Republic" for all I care. But this isn't Zormite. And to think that it is is a damn fallacy. Change to fish, or change your name. Simple as that.

Oh and don't try to tell me that Zormite and humans integrated, because Me and Lance were the last emperors before Zormite was moved. And I made sure as hell all my members hated humans. We would NEVER allow a human to join us. I got so many pms asking if people could join as humans, but I never allowed one, just as noone before me did. To think that 5 minutes later after 2k1 zormite story ended somehow the entire world of Zormite changed is stupid. Zormite was the greatest empire to the end. This little republic is not Zormite.

...in your opinion, and its duly noted. However, I think the current leaders and members of zormite disagree, and naturally, they have the right to do things their way.

Nappa
01-03-2005, 05:33 AM
I have the right to smack you in the freakin face. Everytime you someone says something you can't respond to, you say "in your opinion".

It's getting pretty annoying.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 06:17 AM
I have the right to smack you in the freakin face. Everytime you someone says something you can't respond to, you say "in your opinion".

It's getting pretty annoying.

No, you do not have the right to smack myself or anyone in the face. Your opinion about zormite is undoubtly just that, an opinion. I have no trouble responding to any of your statements, but that doesn't change the fact that stating your opinion as if it was a message from god, as a plain mandate with no basis, is no more compelling than if I were to say "Nappa needs to quit forest or they will always face reduced activity of their members" or something to that effect.
What is annoying is that there are people who, for whatever reason, insist on telling other kingdoms what to do even though they have no involvement whatsoever, dispite their suggestions having already been given more airtime than they deserve.

Zurkiba
01-03-2005, 06:29 AM
No, you do not have the right to smack myself or anyone in the face. Your opinion about zormite is undoubtly just that, an opinion. I have no trouble responding to any of your statements, but that doesn't change the fact that stating your opinion as if it was a message from god, as a plain mandate with no basis, is no more compelling than if I were to say "Nappa needs to quit forest or they will always face reduced activity of their members" or something to that effect.
What is annoying is that there are people who, for whatever reason, insist on telling other kingdoms what to do even though they have no involvement whatsoever, dispite their suggestions having already been given more airtime than they deserve.
Advisors tell leaders what to do yet they themself are not the leader.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 08:01 AM
Advisors tell leaders what to do yet they themself are not the leader.

They don't tell them what to do, they advise them what to do. There is a big difference, and I don't have a problem with nappa or anyone else offering advice.

GoZelda
01-03-2005, 02:55 PM
A) If you think people are acting corruptly in a forums, report it to a supermod. Nappa reported me to Lance for instance once, then stefan overruled him.
I don't mind it, just wanted to make clear what was ment with the corruption.

B) I have never seen forest RP, but I don't assume they don't. I don't expect Forest to justify their existence to me.
Relevance?

C) They could have become a cover band for Barry Manilow for all I care, artistic licence is up to the members, not former members.
Still you can't compare bands with kingdoms - a new band is easily formed and it won't be terribly difficult to get the others to rename their band. This unfortunatly is not possible with kingdoms.

D) Stefan has never made any requests or statements asking Zormite to enforce fish head gfx. Nor has Unixmad. They out rank the kingdom leaders, and unless they appoint some other position that also outranks kingdom leaders, then they are the only ones who do. Unless they say it is to be enforced, you have no right to enforce it, anymore than I can force anything on Forest.
Relevance? Besides, what would you say if you helped Dustari to greatness, then on G3D someone gets ahead of it and makes some average bomy kingdom of it or whatnot?

E) Sure you can. Its documented history. Its context. Now I can't scroll? Back it up.
You do not wish to perform the simple action of scrolling up or down this page so you can see what Nappa had posted. You expect Zurk to quote it for you. Then you think it's reasonable if we performed even more 'labor' by having to go all the way to the Zormite forums, and search up old threads? You can't expect us to read almost the entire Zormite forums while you can't even bring it up to browse this one thread.

Again, you are looking to argue.
No, I was saying you were right.

G) There is a such thing as preaching to the choir. If the end result of an argument is shared between people, then those other people rarely effectively pick apart the argument that lead to that conclusion. It doesn't make the argument right, nor does it make the end result right. More people agree with me than agree with you - does that mean I am right? Fact is both sides have people that disagree.
Relevance?

H) I've love to see Forest RP, but I don't. However, its not because Forest doesn't, its because I am not in forest.
I'm asking for the RP profiles. Surely those are documented somewhere? And if not, I have a website, which I believe is in my profile, where you can. :)

and yourself are doing.
Then what exactly have I been trying to push down everybody's throat lately? Please tell me.


"PS: Sorry to all the pirates who have to see this dumb, long annoying exchange."
Yes. We should be suggesting things here, right? Guess what. That isn't the purpose of this thread.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 07:22 PM
GZ, what you are 'suggesting' is the wholesale distruption and gutting of a GK kingdom, you can't turn zormite into something it is not without undoing the last several years of history. Then you claim since you see forest RP, (and you should you are in it) but don't see Zormite RP (you aren't in it to see it) that somehow now Zormite, needs to justify its existance, to you.

That is not right in the head. I did reread all of nappa's posts, I didn't see anything meaningful. I honestly did not see anything. Now, since you are the ones who want to gut Zormite - I want to leave it alone - perhaps it wouldn't be exactly too much to ask for you to say, read their history in their forums. Of course in someone like Nappa's head, he can't see that its gutting Zormite because unless Zormite exists in the exact way of his liking at all times he can't even acknowledge it's existance. But the fact is, Zormite has existed on GK for all of GK's life. It will continue to have the right to exist. It just shows how little some people care about RPing, when you have some kingdoms, such as KJ, that could actually use some help with the topic - yet when a few people have their egos bruised because their idea is not used by a kingdom that has thrived and made a unique and diverse history for itself on GK, that dominates your minds. If nappa really cared about Zormite, and not just his ideas, he would not be out to hurt it constantly, now would he?

As for Dustari being turned into a bomy kingdom on 3D - if they do that, that is fine by me. I'd state my feelings on the topic, that I didn't like the idea, and ask what they felt it brought and if there was another way to achieve thier goals that allowed for a medieval/fantasy Dustari, but its not my decision, so after making the suggestion, of course, I would welcome their choice.
I mean really, who am I to enforce my ideas on someone else's kingdom? I own zero intellectual property on GK. If I worried how others may change my ideas down the road, I'd get nothing done. Try designing websites for a living, and go back a year later and see the gfx you have done for a client's site, rearranged in a disjointed fashion. You'd get over childish reactions like Nappa's in a hurry or you wouldn't be able to stay in the business.

PS: I do have an RP profile, I don't post it on a site. If you want to get to know my character in character, try talking to my character, in character in the game sometime.

Zurkiba
01-03-2005, 08:14 PM
We're not enforcing ideas apon other kingdoms. You dont see Zormite as fishes.

What we are doing is stating that what Zormite is doing is against the storyline, and against everything in the book in general.

The fact is this, Zormite is lazy. That is why they are not fishes.
Aki doesn't want to be a fish, yet she wants to be the leader.

You say that years of history has taken place. You ask us how we can ignore it. Well how can the current Zormite state ignore the fact that they were a fish kingdom? If they could be a fish one day, and the next day be human (in a literal sense this happened) then I see no problem with them reverting in the same fashion as technically the human part hasn't happened yet, they're still fishes.

You stated that if Stefan and Unixmad wanted to, they could enforce the fish race on the Zormites. Apparently they dont care about the roleplaying community because they havn't done anything in the Samurai situation have they?

I found Nappa's comments to be fullfilling enough to answer your statements. Because you put down Nappa's comments gives us the right to say that you're losing this arguement because all of your statements have been solved with higher logic and better arguements.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 09:31 PM
We're not enforcing ideas apon other kingdoms. You dont see Zormite as fishes.

Nor has almost anyone who plays GK, seen them as fishes in ages. That would be because they are not and have not been fishes, in ages.

What we are doing is stating that what Zormite is doing is against the storyline, and against everything in the book in general.

The fact is this, Zormite is lazy. That is why they are not fishes.
Aki doesn't want to be a fish, yet she wants to be the leader.

You say that years of history has taken place. You ask us how we can ignore it. Well how can the current Zormite state ignore the fact that they were a fish kingdom? If they could be a fish one day, and the next day be human (in a literal sense this happened) then I see no problem with them reverting in the same fashion as technically the human part hasn't happened yet, they're still fishes.

They have been human for years, period, that is a fact. They have thrived and roleplayed and in general, been one of the better kingdoms on GK. There is no centralized Book of Graal and every kingdom has changed and developed over time. Sometimes graal has elves in the forest, sometimes its vikings, all that matters is that people RP decently enough and have fun.

You stated that if Stefan and Unixmad wanted to, they could enforce the fish race on the Zormites. Apparently they dont care about the roleplaying community because they havn't done anything in the Samurai situation have they?
First, Stefan and Unixmad not doing exactly what you or I may think is the best thing for RPing....is not the same as them not caring. There are arguments they are not concerned with RPing, but regardless one thing is a fact; the actual staff have the first rank of authority, below that is the kingdom leaders, who are in charge of their kingdoms respectively. If the members of a kingdom dislike their leader and it causes long term problems, then its possible to ask stefan to step in at that point.


I found Nappa's comments to be fullfilling enough to answer your statements. Because you put down Nappa's comments gives us the right to say that you're losing this arguement because all of your statements have been solved with higher logic and better arguements.

No, you found his conclusions fullfilling enough, I doubt you paid any attention to his comments.

Because I put down Nappa's comments? He's the one who talks about smacking people, lol.

Here, is everything he has said, in the entire thread:

CP is dead. All kingdoms are dead. The moment GK was in decline was the day it was released. I can't say anything has gone up. Sure we started at a good level and it took a while to go down, but it did go down, and as long as the same people are running these kingdoms, we won't see any changes.

This is a good example of what I mean by nonsensical. "CP is dead." has no context. It is actually quite active, they just had an event with his own kingdom, forest. Then "All kingdoms are dead." tops even that grand statement, yet is meaningless. What does that statement contribute? That he doesn't like GK? Is Forest dead too? Lets get Chris to answer that, he may be more qualified than Nappa educate us on that. Or, we don't need to bother Chris, as its just another nonsensical comment.
Can we top that? Yep. "The moment GK was in decline was the day it was released." - now that is a big one. He even contradicts it in his next sentance, so what is the point of even making it? He goes on to say that it actually took a while to decline, but that it was steady. I think there was some good times with Charles and Larrien in the early days, and many more good times down the road, but I am sure you can agree that the Astri times were fun. Then he says "as long as the same people are running these kingdoms, we won't see any changes." - which is again, baseless. We have had a lot of leaders change out in GK, yet somehow Nappa thinks all he has to do is make the comment, and it is so.

How is that post, even vaguely relevant? It barely makes sense. Each sentance is geared to sound grand and final and large, but has no thought to content or basis.

I am not going to get involved other then talking about the fish heads in the Dustari thread, but I must say, as long as the same people with the same policies around - They will have the same problems.

That is fine, but if I recall he was warned by admins that he is spamming if he keeps posting the same things over and over. Then he makes the same comments about the leaders, and again he doesn't say anything about how to fix anything, just more grand comments that until the leaders are gone, all of GK will be cursed and doom and gloom will rule the world.

--
I propose that the thread started in the dustari section be continued here due to it was closed for no real reason at all. Here, the Dustari leaders cannot close the thread.


Actually, the Dustari forums are not a place for the fish topic either, you would want to post that in the kingdoms forum. In fact, I believe there is at least a dozen or more threads where this exact topic was debate time after time after time after time and the only reason its is still being debated is that people can't accept when their ideas are not chosen to be used. Can you, Zurk, or anyone...imagine what it would be like if say, I wanted a change done - maybe I want forest to be vikings again - and if I just posted thread after thread after thread about it, declared all the leaders who disagreed with me unfit to rule repeatedly, and hijacked a large number of other threads onto the topic, just because I didn't get my way?

That is not a constructive way to work for anyone, and there is no reason that exceptions should be made for nappa or anyone else.


GZ: Yes, combine Zormite and Dustari. Pirates should be more like an 'official' guild, kill their island too. They can have the island east of Hotaru which isn't used anyway.
nappa: BY GEORGE I THINK YOU'RE ON TO SOMETHING! No, seriously. This is the best thing I've heard in this thread. The second best thing below.
protagonist:
And I always thought you never had a brain. Hallelujah hallelujah the lord has come!

PLEASE DO THESE THINGS.

Nappa is entitled to his opinions here, but they are just that and not on the topic. As for combining Zormite and Dustari, I have already stated clearly the differences between the two nations. I don't support killing CP, but thats my opinion.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 09:31 PM
sorry for the double post, I am responding to several posts at once, so its a bit long



Dustari and Zormite are as good as one. We could just cut out the middle man. The only reason this wont happen is one of these little queens will have to give up their throne.

Again, in nappa's opinion he sees Dustari and Zormite 'as good as one' but there is sure no evidence to back that up, and I already pointed out the obvious differences. The rest is a weak insult at the leaders, there is clearly nothing of substance in this post.

The only thing different about Dustari and Zormite is the name. They both go together with every decision. The kingdom leaders are of the same royal family. You and I both know that the only differences are the names.

Getting closer to a post of substance, makes a case even. However, the strength of the alliance of the two nations and the crossing of bloodlines is not a reason to merge to distinct cultures. He fails to take into account the roleplaying differences of the two nations. Dustari is a medieval fantasy knight style of kingdom, Zormite is a Republic. Some call it a monarchy because they are uneducated in the definition of Republic (a topic very heavily documented and covered in the forums, no one should be ignorant on it at this point) or because of the GUI limits, but in that regard it is impossible not to have a monarchy then. The game mechanics are the same for all kingdoms. They do however have a rich roleplaying system of government that makes them rather distinct. In the end, this post of his has nothing substantial either.

Their not completely different, at all. They are both monarchy's, but one just puts the name "republic" after it's name.

Oh and by the way, I am in Forest, fool.

This again, fails to address any of the topics presented to date. It is repetition. It ignores the major differences in the histories and roleplaying styles of the two kingdoms. Another mindless post.


That is where your reasoning is flawed - I never quit Zormite. Zormite was removed forcefully from the server I played on and was changed instantly before my eyes. It's not like "oh they evolved 3 minutes later when it was thrown onto 2k2". I have been pushing fish heads SINCE ZORMITE WAS MOVED. (Oh and look at that, Moved, not CREATED)
...Not really, since I never quit. I am one of the only true Zormite members to the end.

First, Nappa says my reasoning is flawed because he never 'quit' Zormite and considers himself to be the only member. His desire to be a member is meaningless however, we have to deal in facts and the facts are, he has not been a member of Zormite in ages. Zormite has had a huge history that he has not been apart of. Everyone also knows, he has been pushing the fish head issue (much to everyone's dismay). No one in GK, no staff, no leaders, pretty much no players save maybe a small handful, would see that comment as anything other than lunacy. He is bickering over what changed when GK was first started years ago, and Zormite has changed a lot since then. Hardly a 'true' member of Zormite, he can't even recognize what it is anymore.


When do you represent the players ? Did you somehow become the leader of all the united players of this game ? No.. Changing Zormite not only ruins it for the members of Zormite but it removes roleplaying aspect from the game in general, thus hurting MY gameplay. So I as a PLAYER of the game, should have a say, no ?

I do not represent 'the players' nor did I claim to, I am just saying that just anyone who comes running around wanting their way can't just get it and change everything. Note his own words "No.. Changing Zormite not only ruins it for the members of Zormite but it removes roleplaying aspect from the game in general, thus hurting MY gameplay. " where he pretty much sums up my exact argument of why I don't want him to CHANGE zormite. His problem though, is he is failing to account for time and is living in the past, and changing zormite now and making them fish, would hurt everyone's gameplay and remove a roleplaying aspect from the game in general. However, if Zormite did choose to do that, I would not have a problem with it - I would adapt. That is the nature of roleplaying and um, having a community.

To this point has he made a single effective argument? Not once, its a combination, as at the top, totally nonsensical posts with flaming diatribes with no substance.

..I don't need to become a baker to tell you you can't make a cake, and that you should give it more sugar. I don't have to lead your nation to tell you your doing something wrong. As Zurkiba has been SAYING IN EVERY POST HE HAS MADE he has been trying to work with the kingdom leaders.

An almost effective argument, but it breaks down: he can and should be allowed to suggest adding sugar, but to make a mission out of it and speak down to everyone harshly and abusively who prefers to go light on the sugar and demand he gets his way....when he is not even eating the cake..is completely disfunctional. It is also irrelevant that Zurk has said that he has been trying to work with Kingdom leaders, he has also been trying to gut one of the finer kingdoms and has made no bones about it. That is not called working with the leaders.


..We have come up with solutions, but all you have done is argue against them and not come up with your own.

The closest thing that has been 'come up with' solution wise is to combine zormite and dustari (disasterous idea) or add fish heads to zormite (also disasterous). Some comments about changing game mechanics - which I generally support, but its not like those are solutions until they are possible, and they need people like stefan to say they are approved and can be done, before that can be considered a solution.

I have also proposed tons of roleplaying ideas and concepts and solutions, and I clearly have come up with my own. So, that statement is an outright lie.

Wow.. Great defence against my statements.. "I don't care what nappa says". Yipee!

As I made sure it was known, I do not 'not care' about what he says, I find most of his comments nonsensical, and I in this post, documented that quite clearly.


Funny that you'll argue to others about it ? The fact is, I don't care if the Zormite kingdom stays on 2k2. Just change the name from Zormite to something else. This is no longer zormite, Zormite ended after 2k1. Change the name to "HighPowerLevelPlayersRuleMe Republic" for all I care. But this isn't Zormite. And to think that it is is a damn fallacy. Change to fish, or change your name. Simple as that.

He is in no position to make that demand. He has nothing to do with zormite and has not been a zormite for a very long time. He can call himself a zormite but facts show he is not, other than in his own mind. The best evidence of that is the fact he has no idea of what zormite even is like to day nor is he in any way in synch with even one of its current members.


Oh and don't try to tell me that Zormite and humans integrated, because Me and Lance were the last emperors before Zormite was moved. And I made sure as hell all my members hated humans. We would NEVER allow a human to join us. I got so many pms asking if people could join as humans, but I never allowed one, just as noone before me did. To think that 5 minutes later after 2k1 zormite story ended somehow the entire world of Zormite changed is stupid. Zormite was the greatest empire to the end. This little republic is not Zormite.

Again, this is all many years old and not even relevant today. I am not just saying "he is stating opinion" but this last two sentances are obviously only that. They have no substance, no basis. I can agree that the republic is not what zormite was, but it sure is what zormite is today. He cannot change that Zormite has had a long history to date, much of which without him. His desire for that to simply 'not count' amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking.

I have the right to smack you in the freakin face. Everytime you someone says something you can't respond to, you say "in your opinion".

It's getting pretty annoying.

That last part was cute, but still meaningless. I can and did respond to everything, and now, even the stuff that wasn't worth responding to. As for his "in your opinion" comments, I am sorry but an opinion is just that. If I say "the ferrys take way too long and need to be changed" that is opinion. If I say "the ferrys take way too long and need to be changed because you can sail back and forth in a ship 8 times before catching a ferry" then there is a fact attached, though in this case, a false one since the ferries are fine. My point is, there is a such thing as an opinion, and if he doesn't want to hear that "his opinion" is not a mandate, then he shouldn't have everything rest on his opinions.

Zurkiba
01-03-2005, 10:00 PM
-_-

Why are you so hypocritical?

Zormites cant turn into fishes in a day but they can turn into humans.

Your logic is flawed, they have NOT roleplayed for ages. They sat there and called themselves humans.

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 10:32 PM
-_-

Why are you so hypocritical?

Zormites cant turn into fishes in a day but they can turn into humans.

Your logic is flawed, they have NOT roleplayed for ages. They sat there and called themselves humans.

They have been RPing, you are are in no position to judge them - you at most pass judgement on them simply because they have deviated from your original ideas of what zormite is. If you base your argument on them not having roleplayed for ages your argument falls apart as they most certianly have been roleplaying. Regardless of any momentary disruptions from when they 'went human' it is insane to try to roll it back now years later, it would disrupt the kingdoms entire roleplaying history to date on GK. Zormite has the final authority on what zormite does. Others can make suggestions, but that is the end of it. You can't reshuffle entire kingdoms entire years down the road, period.

I don't like every little decision that has been made on this server either, but I can definately handle it with a touch of civility when I don't and accept it. That is called of being part of a community.

GryffonDurime
01-03-2005, 10:52 PM
The Name Zormite is Hiyru's intelletual property, is it not? So Nappa can make a case for it if Hiryu supports him, just as Dustari's name is...Well, is Asuka's, or Zulithes?

busyrobot
01-03-2005, 11:01 PM
The Name Zormite is Hiyru's intelletual property, is it not? So Nappa can make a case for it if Hiryu supports him, just as Dustari's name is...Well, is Asuka's, or Zulithes?

Unless zormite was created outside of graal and had prior legal copyrights, any content added, post, or uploaded to GK becomes the intellectual property of Cyberjoueurs. If you create content for GK or another server, for instance, you cannot pull 'your' content later, Cyberjoueurs specifically is protected from that. It is technically against the rules to post content that is already copyrighted by another source that could cause conflicts for Cyberjoueurs, though it is technically possible that it could happen. Because of that, Hiryu has no more right to change or rename Zormite than I have the right to change the Dustari Cathedral or something.

Zurkiba
01-03-2005, 11:41 PM
They have been RPing, you are are in no position to judge them - you at most pass judgement on them simply because they have deviated from your original ideas of what zormite is. If you base your argument on them not having roleplayed for ages your argument falls apart as they most certianly have been roleplaying. Regardless of any momentary disruptions from when they 'went human' it is insane to try to roll it back now years later, it would disrupt the kingdoms entire roleplaying history to date on GK. Zormite has the final authority on what zormite does. Others can make suggestions, but that is the end of it. You can't reshuffle entire kingdoms entire years down the road, period.

I don't like every little decision that has been made on this server either, but I can definately handle it with a touch of civility when I don't and accept it. That is called of being part of a community.
I've always been pushing for the real Zormite Empire...

But you, my friend, keep changing your mind and flipflopping on the issue to gain what YOU want.

The fact is this, Zormite couldn't have turned Human, ergo they are not roleplaying.

If I follow all the laws of my state, and break one, I am still breaking the law.

busyrobot
01-04-2005, 12:56 AM
I've always been pushing for the real Zormite Empire...

But you, my friend, keep changing your mind and flipflopping on the issue to gain what YOU want.

The fact is this, Zormite couldn't have turned Human, ergo they are not roleplaying.

If I follow all the laws of my state, and break one, I am still breaking the law.

The real Zormite Empire is now called the Zormite Republic, and you are pushing to turn it into something it once was, but now isn't. You fail to understand the concept of RPing if you truly believe that the last several years, most of its very lifespan, somehow "don't count" just because you find it disagreeable. I have not flip flopped and its not even about what "I" want, I am not even in Zormite and if they chose to revert to a fish people kingdom, I would welcome that as much as I welcome their wish to remain the way they are.
Prior to launch during I believe, the first moon landing mission, one astronaut said jokingly, (paraphrasing) "They have come up with three possible theories about how the moon was formed. The first theory was proven wrong in the 1800 hundreds, another in the early 1900s. The last theory was proven wrong about a decade ago, which leads to the one remaining conclusion, that the moon must not actually exist."
You say they "can't" be human but they undeniably are. They have been for years. They have roleplayed and been a part of the fabric of GK longer than they were ever in 2k1 (counting of course, until the time GK ended 2k1's activity).
Zormite is human. Zormite roleplays. Those facts have been true for Zormit e for the majority of its existence. If you want to distort those facts, you have to resort to changing what 'Zormite' means to some abstract idea conjured by the original creators that has nothing to do with GK, and thus it fails. You have to change the definition of roleplaying too if you want to bend the second fact. The facts are against you, period. I didn't make them up, its just the way they are. I accept that Nappa had a role in the forming of Zormite originally, as well as that the 2k1 empire were human haters, and fish people. Those are also facts. So is the fact that the switch to humans was probably (I have not researched it) not done in the best RP manner and more because of all the other changes that took place in GK and that the transition as a whole for all kingdoms was a stretch RP wise. It still (if you know anything about RP) doesn't revert or undo the efforts of the last several years. That would totally bastardize the entire history of GK. It would ruin every RP storyline that has occured in GK, from the alliances to the intermarriages to the every diplomatic outcome. If Zormite was not human, the Astri wars would not have turned out as they did. If the Zormites hated humans, almost nothing of the last several years would make sense.

It did make sense though, for one reason: Zormites actually, are human. Its a human kingdom. It has been for the entire history of GK. I don't try to deny the facts of 2k1, don't deny the facts of 2k2. Zormite is human, fact. Zormite roleplays, fact. You you can't accept those facts, you can't have a conversation based in reality.

Zurkiba
01-04-2005, 02:58 AM
The real Zormite Empire is now called the Zormite Republic, and you are pushing to turn it into something it once was, but now isn't. You fail to understand the concept of RPing if you truly believe that the last several years, most of its very lifespan, somehow "don't count" just because you find it disagreeable. I have not flip flopped and its not even about what "I" want, I am not even in Zormite and if they chose to revert to a fish people kingdom, I would welcome that as much as I welcome their wish to remain the way they are.
Prior to launch during I believe, the first moon landing mission, one astronaut said jokingly, (paraphrasing) "They have come up with three possible theories about how the moon was formed. The first theory was proven wrong in the 1800 hundreds, another in the early 1900s. The last theory was proven wrong about a decade ago, which leads to the one remaining conclusion, that the moon must not actually exist."
You say they "can't" be human but they undeniably are. They have been for years. They have roleplayed and been a part of the fabric of GK longer than they were ever in 2k1 (counting of course, until the time GK ended 2k1's activity).
Zormite is human. Zormite roleplays. Those facts have been true for Zormit e for the majority of its existence. If you want to distort those facts, you have to resort to changing what 'Zormite' means to some abstract idea conjured by the original creators that has nothing to do with GK, and thus it fails. You have to change the definition of roleplaying too if you want to bend the second fact. The facts are against you, period. I didn't make them up, its just the way they are. I accept that Nappa had a role in the forming of Zormite originally, as well as that the 2k1 empire were human haters, and fish people. Those are also facts. So is the fact that the switch to humans was probably (I have not researched it) not done in the best RP manner and more because of all the other changes that took place in GK and that the transition as a whole for all kingdoms was a stretch RP wise. It still (if you know anything about RP) doesn't revert or undo the efforts of the last several years. That would totally bastardize the entire history of GK. It would ruin every RP storyline that has occured in GK, from the alliances to the intermarriages to the every diplomatic outcome. If Zormite was not human, the Astri wars would not have turned out as they did. If the Zormites hated humans, almost nothing of the last several years would make sense.

It did make sense though, for one reason: Zormites actually, are human. Its a human kingdom. It has been for the entire history of GK. I don't try to deny the facts of 2k1, don't deny the facts of 2k2. Zormite is human, fact. Zormite roleplays, fact. You you can't accept those facts, you can't have a conversation based in reality.

You do flip flop. We need a roleplaying excuse to turn the Zormites back to fishes but we dont need a reason why they're human? Amazing.

That's the thing, you DO deny 2k1, you even said it in an above post. The fact is this, the Zormite Empire still lives on and they are fish. It's something noone can change because it's not under the corruption of the Zormite leaders. -That- is why the fishes continue.

I'm not denying the facts of Graal Kingdoms. It's not my fault some Dustarians had a fetish with wanting to do fishes. That's what yall have to deal with. The people who are denying history and the obvious facts are the strings of leadership of the "Zormite" island. Do not blame me for that.

If I cant deny that the Zormite's were human for a couple of years then they cant deny that they are fish. It's that simple.

Lets compare two names together
Zormite Empire
Zormite Republic
Now lets see if there is a word that links the two together somehow, oh wait there it is. It's Zormite.

So this is what you do, the current kingdom are fishes, their entire history was that of the fish. Now you say, 'OMGZ THAT CANT WORK'. But the fact is this, according to every roleplaying aspect of the universe, the kingdom was never composed of humans.

Now put this scenario in your mind. Samurai attacks Dustari, Samurai keeps respawning until victory is achieved, Samurai 'roleplays' that they salted the lands and destroyed the castle. They run around screaming 'LAWLZ WE PWNT U!!!111' or something of that sort. So we have Samurai who ignored every roleplaying rule in the world, defeated Dustari who has been following the roleplaying rules. This is what Dustari is going to do, It's going to simply ignore Samurai. Or Dustari will roleplay the results by remaking a story for it. The same goes with the Zormites.

My final remarks
Zormite is a FISH kingdom and no body can change that. It is a fact of life

I'd ask you to stop being so hard headed about the subject and actually listen to reason.

Edit//
As for the, if the members want it. That isn't true. I know from personal reasons. The staff support the "leaders" no matter how stupid they are.

Nappa
01-04-2005, 03:00 AM
What he fails to realize that his logic is flawed in that it can work both ways.

If Zormite can't just turn into fish, how come they can just turn into humans ?

busyrobot
01-04-2005, 05:15 AM
My logic is sound, you are the ones saying they can turn into fish. Regarding the KJ vs. Dustari issue, that is an inter-kingdom example, and has nothing to do with the internals of a kingdom's structure, that happens to be entirely up to the people that make up that kingdom.
I even said, that it is not the height of RP to have fish turn into humans, you can take that up with unixmad or stefan or zen or whoever setup zormite on GK for the first time. However, it has long since has been human.

You say "but they have always been fish" and I am sorry, but you are wrong, you haven't been playing, you have no idea what Zormite is outside of your head. You are trying to make abstract ideas more real than what is in front of you: the actual face of Zormite, as it has developed and played out over the last several years. Dustarians did not have a fetish for fish....nor would I accept your randomly bastardizing our history over the last several years just so you can implement one idea that hasn't even been used during the lifetime of GK, and is also not wanted by that kingdom's members.

Zurkiba
01-04-2005, 05:20 AM
My logic is sound, you are the ones saying they can turn into fish. Regarding the KJ vs. Dustari issue, that is an inter-kingdom example, and has nothing to do with the internals of a kingdom's structure, that happens to be entirely up to the people that make up that kingdom.
I even said, that it is not the height of RP to have fish turn into humans, you can take that up with unixmad or stefan or zen or whoever setup zormite on GK for the first time. However, it has long since has been human.

You say "but they have always been fish" and I am sorry, but you are wrong, you haven't been playing, you have no idea what Zormite is outside of your head. You are trying to make abstract ideas more real than what is in front of you: the actual face of Zormite, as it has developed and played out over the last several years. Dustarians did not have a fetish for fish....nor would I accept your randomly bastardizing our history over the last several years just so you can implement one idea that hasn't even been used during the lifetime of GK, and is also not wanted by that kingdom's members.
-_-

You're too ignorant and hard headed to argue with. You're a broken record which keeps repeating things after they have been proven wrong.

I'll reply to a post when a good point is actually made.

Moonite
01-04-2005, 05:54 AM
Why u guys Getting soPissed off for a game.

Nappa
01-04-2005, 05:56 AM
I agree with Zurkiba.. God.. Theirs no point in argueing with someone who won't listen.

busyrobot
01-04-2005, 07:46 AM
-_-

You're too ignorant and hard headed to argue with. You're a broken record which keeps repeating things after they have been proven wrong.

I'll reply to a post when a good point is actually made.

Zurk, if you keep stating the same flawed reasons over and over, of course I'll sound like a broken record. All you have proven is that you are entrenched in your own views, no matter how out of synch they are.

You have stated you firmly believe Zormite are still fish people, dispite the fact that is not the case. Why do I say its not the case? Because I can back it up: Zormite has roleplayed for years as humans, the entire server knows on 2k2, Zormite is made up of humans. Its like saying the Soviets never collapsed or the south won the civil war, its possible to say it, but only if you ignore all of modern history.

Nappa
01-04-2005, 07:56 AM
So you are saying Zormites have no right to change to fish because they have been humans for years, however their change to humans is justified though zormite rped as fish for years ?

What ?

busyrobot
01-04-2005, 08:43 AM
So you are saying Zormites have no right to change to fish because they have been humans for years, however their change to humans is justified though zormite rped as fish for years ?

What ?

No, ultimately that would be up to them - their choice. I stated that clearly a few times. If they want to become fish, that would be fine by me, I would hope they would have a good RP backstory for it. It would bother me if they rewrote their history, either to say they always were fish, or that they conquered and ruled dustari for a hundred years, since that wasn't played out and goes against the large trends of the history. And yes, you can argue zormite did just that when they 'went human' at the start of the new server, but forcing reversion now would destroy more history than ever existed on 2k1, and is hardly a fitting 'penalty' for something that happened years ago.
Of course, if they did choose to rewrite their history, its up to stefan and unixmad if it would be allowable, not me.

GoZelda
01-04-2005, 02:51 PM
All you have proven is that you are entrenched in your own views, no matter how out of synch they are.
Wait, let me get this straight.
You say we should suggest ways to improve RPing in this thread.
You say that 2k1 has no relevance to GK.
You see an admittence of your right as an attack.
You somehow keep arguing against three others, but assume you still haven't been proved wrong.
You are the one entrenched in your own views
What happened to you? Before you were a kingdom leader you were teh l33t.

Nappa
01-04-2005, 10:42 PM
No, ultimately that would be up to them - their choice. I stated that clearly a few times. If they want to become fish, that would be fine by me, I would hope they would have a good RP backstory for it. It would bother me if they rewrote their history, either to say they always were fish, or that they conquered and ruled dustari for a hundred years, since that wasn't played out and goes against the large trends of the history. And yes, you can argue zormite did just that when they 'went human' at the start of the new server, but forcing reversion now would destroy more history than ever existed on 2k1, and is hardly a fitting 'penalty' for something that happened years ago.
Of course, if they did choose to rewrite their history, its up to stefan and unixmad if it would be allowable, not me.


How the hell are you going to tell me this ? Their was more rp in one week on 2k1 then their has been on the entire history of GK. Your thinking G2k1 was just a miniscule event but it wasn't. It is the entire history of these kingdoms, and to just ignore their history like it never existed is just plain stupid.

Zurkiba
01-04-2005, 11:38 PM
And here is the thing. Lets see there are WOW THREE ENTIRE HUMAN KINGDOMS. OMG! THAT MEANS WE NEED ANOTHER LAWLZ.

If a person wants to rolplay as a Human he can be a Samurai, Knight, or even a Pirate. Hell, if that person wanted to roleplay in an ancient sense he could join Forest.

But no, we have to ruin one of the most sacred of all of Graal's traditions with crappy excuses to retain power.

But here is the thing, they did rewrite their history. Personally that's bull****. I guess if America turns into a Communist state then we can just rewrite American history to have Comrade Washington destroy the bastard British because of the capitalist taxes. But no, that's now how it happened.

I can perfectly understand if they name their kingdom into something else. That's fine, here is where the problem lies. They call themselves Zormites when they're not. No roleplaying story in the galaxy can mask why they carry the name Zormite. No roleplaying story in the galaxy can explain how they turned into humans in a single day.

So this is how Zormite solves it's problems
Dictatress Aki whatever (Archist Republic)
OH MY DEAR LORD, ZURKIBA IS A GENIUS BECAUSE HE JUST FIGURED OUT HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

But NO, that wont happen. Because the people are too damn ignorance, arrogant, and hardheaded.

So this is what you do, rename the adjective before the Republic right. Then you can be all 100% human for all I care. It'll be easier to roleplay that way.

We cant erase history, yes this is true. But the thing is that the history you reffer to never happened. It would be the same as if I said last year I conquered the world. People can play along with it, but did I conquer the world? no

Evil_Trunks
01-04-2005, 11:50 PM
I have always thought this was a great quote, taken from Ziro's signature (http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/member.php?u=2820), of course.

<taken off AIM, Ryan W referring to Zormite on GK after I told him why they're not a fish-like race anymore>
Freak0102: That's like the new Governor of CP saying "I don't really like pirates since GK doesn't have eye patches and stuff, so let's be guys who think pirates are cool instead"

Edit: Darn! I'm way too late. Posted on page 4.

busyrobot
01-05-2005, 04:29 AM
We cant erase history, yes this is true. But the thing is that the history you reffer to never happened. It would be the same as if I said last year I conquered the world. People can play along with it, but did I conquer the world? no

The history I refer to is the history of the zormite republic, and it did happen as has been etched in the ones and zeros of the graal universe for quite some time. You can't say it "didn't happen" in some abstract sense, when in a literal sense, it did.

No matter how 'wrong' it was or how much you blame stefan/unixmad/whoever for turning zormite into humans 'in a day' it happened, literally ages ago. The point of an RP server is for everyone to have fun RPing in the best way the server allows, not enshrine a make believe race. So you and Nappa consider yourselves the parents of Zormite, and it grew up and left home and didn't turn out the way you wanted - but that's life, you don't get to kill the kid if he doesn't want to change his first name.


How the hell are you going to tell me this ? Their was more rp in one week on 2k1 then their has been on the entire history of GK. Your thinking G2k1 was just a miniscule event but it wasn't. It is the entire history of these kingdoms, and to just ignore their history like it never existed is just plain stupid.

Check the dates, 2k2 has been active way longer than 2k1. You are back to making dumb engrandizing statements agian, there was not more rping in one week of 2k1 than in the history of GK. But heck, you would have us believe that the entire history of GK is 'invalid' because Zormite didn't turn out the way you wanted.
I am speaking in 'literal time' not 'make believe' time where you can dismiss the entire 2k2 server's entire history because zormite wasn't 'perfect' enough for you in its implementation there.


Wait, let me get this straight.
You say we should suggest ways to improve RPing in this thread.
You say that 2k1 has no relevance to GK.
You see an admittence of your right as an attack.
You somehow keep arguing against three others, but assume you still haven't been proved wrong.
You are the one entrenched in your own views
What happened to you? Before you were a kingdom leader you were teh l33t.
Yes
No
Huh? What does that supposed to mean?
They are wrong, and if you want to 'prove' I am wrong you need to use facts and logic. I still say, since A) fun is #1 priority of a game (with RPing a close second) and B) you can have fun and RP in the present C) you can't RP in the past D) if you are going to 'break' the RP history, the present is more important than the past, as in how to best serve A, given the facts of B and C. Add to that, the issue of who has the right to mess up another kingdom unilaterally...and I think my logic is pretty clear.
I have strong convictions, but they are very open to refinement. All I require is sound logic.
I changed? ;_; lol, I am the same

Brad
01-05-2005, 04:47 AM
Well, now I'm getting pissed.


Padren, you weren't around for 2k1 and have absolutely no right to badmouth it or even compare it to the hellhole known as GK. To be quite honest with you if the 2k1 leaders were placed as leaders on GK I believe roleplaying could happen. Now, *****s run kingdoms, inactive leaders run kingdoms, or as in forest's case noone runs it. I am not going to sit around here and let you talk **** on the greatest server in graal history. How about you convince Zoe to give her spot to Zurk, Nay to give her spot to someone jesus anyone, get GP back for pirates. For god's sake I dont even know who runs those group of *****s. I am getting pissed GK is a pisstent and it cant call itself an rp server anymore.

Zurkiba
01-05-2005, 05:06 AM
The history I refer to is the history of the zormite republic, and it did happen as has been etched in the ones and zeros of the graal universe for quite some time. You can't say it "didn't happen" in some abstract sense, when in a literal sense, it did.

No matter how 'wrong' it was or how much you blame stefan/unixmad/whoever for turning zormite into humans 'in a day' it happened, literally ages ago. The point of an RP server is for everyone to have fun RPing in the best way the server allows, not enshrine a make believe race. So you and Nappa consider yourselves the parents of Zormite, and it grew up and left home and didn't turn out the way you wanted - but that's life, you don't get to kill the kid if he doesn't want to change his first name.




Check the dates, 2k2 has been active way longer than 2k1. You are back to making dumb engrandizing statements agian, there was not more rping in one week of 2k1 than in the history of GK. But heck, you would have us believe that the entire history of GK is 'invalid' because Zormite didn't turn out the way you wanted.
I am speaking in 'literal time' not 'make believe' time where you can dismiss the entire 2k2 server's entire history because zormite wasn't 'perfect' enough for you in its implementation there.


Yes
No
Huh? What does that supposed to mean?
They are wrong, and if you want to 'prove' I am wrong you need to use facts and logic. I still say, since A) fun is #1 priority of a game (with RPing a close second) and B) you can have fun and RP in the present C) you can't RP in the past D) if you are going to 'break' the RP history, the present is more important than the past, as in how to best serve A, given the facts of B and C. Add to that, the issue of who has the right to mess up another kingdom unilaterally...and I think my logic is pretty clear.
I have strong convictions, but they are very open to refinement. All I require is sound logic.
I changed? ;_; lol, I am the same

And I have a sword on my dresser, and now I say that I conquered the world. I have taken measures that what I said has been backed up.

Sorry, you're wrong. The point of a roleplaying server is to roleplay. If they want to have random PKing fun they can go play Unholy Nation.

Yeah ok, so myself and Nappa are the parents of Zormite, and lets just give Zormite a race... lets just say Chinese not to offend anyone. So Myself and Nappa have this Chinese Kid. If that Chinese kid turns black then something is wrong.

Nappa is making dumb arguements? You're the one who disregarded Nappa's statements because 'He posts useless stuff in other threads which means he is unable to make a collective thought now or ever'.

We have already proven you wrong, but your damn ignorance tells you otherwise.

Nappa
01-05-2005, 07:58 AM
Their is nothing more I can add, because we've already proven Padren to be a fool so many times. I'd just like to say give up already. God.

busyrobot
01-05-2005, 10:20 AM
First of all Brad, I never said anything bad about 2k1. If I recall, GP was asked to come back and didn't want to, Zurk has even said he doesn't want to lead a kingdom, which is for the best, he isn't really up on modern GK history.

Second, Zurk, if the kid turns out black, the kid turns out black, you don't kill the kid and try again x.X

You'll notice I said, 'roleplaying' is a close second on the list of priorities, only after having fun. Don't play straw man games with me as if I suggested GK should be a PK server.
Anytime Nappa has actually made a point I have responded to it with reasoned arguments. If he is capable of debating them then he should.

It can be summed up very simply:

Zormite: Fish heads vs Humans
Fishhead pros: | Human cons:
1) consistent with old 2k1 history | inconsitent with old 2k1 history
2) increased diversity | less diversity

Fishhead cons: Human pros:
1) inconsistent with all 2k2 history | consistent with all GK RP history
2) restrictive and limiting | offers more options
3) people of Zormite don't want it | people of Zormite want it
4) distruptive - forces a 'fake' history | GK can continue to operate and grow


Pros: An element of 2k1 history is revived, and it increases diversity among the kingdoms.
Cons: It restricts zormite, reducing their flexibility. It is also not wanted by zormite, and if a kingdom is active and RPs, huge changes should not be forced on it for any reason. It is also at the expense of the current 2k2 setting - no matter how you cut it, you can't keep 2k2's history and make such a radical change that cuts to the very first days of GK.

If all you want GK to be, is a shrine dedicated to 2k1, it makes sense, but if you want an RP server, you can't just make changes like that. A handful of people who barely even play GK can say 'its always been fish' reality clearly differs, everyone who plays GK *knows* Zormite is human and has been for its entire history of GK.
Its a matter of priorities. For some reason, being 'a little more like 2k1' is more important to some people than all of GK's history. Brad and Nappa sure made their feelings clear on that topic. But if people actually want to make GK better you need to improve it from this point forward - not backward. You don't need 'fish people' in Zormite to RP, and they have been doing fine without it.

Your positions are correct for your priorities, but your priorities are out of synch of GK players, and the entire server as a whole. You can badmouth GK if you want, but it is the current dominate RP server, and while it needs work nothing is getting done by us bickering. Add to kingdoms going forward, but don't erase what it is in a vain attempt to recapture some part of the past.


If you can't debate, then there is really no point to this discussion. You are more interested in thinking you are right than listening to reason. I think though, it really boils down to priorities, and I think yours are out of synch with what is healthy for GK, as well as out of synch with the roleplaying players of GK as well.

Zurkiba
01-05-2005, 08:08 PM
First of all Brad, I never said anything bad about 2k1. If I recall, GP was asked to come back and didn't want to, Zurk has even said he doesn't want to lead a kingdom, which is for the best, he isn't really up on modern GK history.

Second, Zurk, if the kid turns out black, the kid turns out black, you don't kill the kid and try again x.X

You'll notice I said, 'roleplaying' is a close second on the list of priorities, only after having fun. Don't play straw man games with me as if I suggested GK should be a PK server.
Anytime Nappa has actually made a point I have responded to it with reasoned arguments. If he is capable of debating them then he should.

It can be summed up very simply:

Zormite: Fish heads vs Humans
Fishhead pros: | Human cons:
1) consistent with old 2k1 history | inconsitent with old 2k1 history
2) increased diversity | less diversity

Fishhead cons: Human pros:
1) inconsistent with all 2k2 history | consistent with all GK RP history
2) restrictive and limiting | offers more options
3) people of Zormite don't want it | people of Zormite want it
4) distruptive - forces a 'fake' history | GK can continue to operate and grow


Pros: An element of 2k1 history is revived, and it increases diversity among the kingdoms.
Cons: It restricts zormite, reducing their flexibility. It is also not wanted by zormite, and if a kingdom is active and RPs, huge changes should not be forced on it for any reason. It is also at the expense of the current 2k2 setting - no matter how you cut it, you can't keep 2k2's history and make such a radical change that cuts to the very first days of GK.

If all you want GK to be, is a shrine dedicated to 2k1, it makes sense, but if you want an RP server, you can't just make changes like that. A handful of people who barely even play GK can say 'its always been fish' reality clearly differs, everyone who plays GK *knows* Zormite is human and has been for its entire history of GK.
Its a matter of priorities. For some reason, being 'a little more like 2k1' is more important to some people than all of GK's history. Brad and Nappa sure made their feelings clear on that topic. But if people actually want to make GK better you need to improve it from this point forward - not backward. You don't need 'fish people' in Zormite to RP, and they have been doing fine without it.

Your positions are correct for your priorities, but your priorities are out of synch of GK players, and the entire server as a whole. You can badmouth GK if you want, but it is the current dominate RP server, and while it needs work nothing is getting done by us bickering. Add to kingdoms going forward, but don't erase what it is in a vain attempt to recapture some part of the past.


If you can't debate, then there is really no point to this discussion. You are more interested in thinking you are right than listening to reason. I think though, it really boils down to priorities, and I think yours are out of synch with what is healthy for GK, as well as out of synch with the roleplaying players of GK as well.

If Graal Kingdoms was meant to just be 'fun' then it would be called Graal FUNSERVERLAWLZ. But It's not. Graal Kingdoms was made for one purpose, roleplaying.

I've redone your little "chart"
ZORMITE pros:
Consistent with 2k1 History
Increased diversity
Awesome roleplaying experience
Kingdom uniqueness
Relation to the past
Goes along with the official storyline.

ZORMITE cons:
You're not human (if you consider this a con)

---

You have ignored everything I've said, everything anyone else had said, and continue to go against what we've said to prove us wrong when you have already been proven wrong. Examples? If they can ignore 2k1 history then I can ignore their 'history'.

Recapture the past? Hardly. If I take Shakesphere and change all the names of the male protagonists to Zurkiba then that's just fine and dandy right? Well it's not. And if I did that then people would be pissed off at me.

busyrobot
01-06-2005, 04:32 AM
If Graal Kingdoms was meant to just be 'fun' then it would be called Graal FUNSERVERLAWLZ. But It's not. Graal Kingdoms was made for one purpose, roleplaying.

Roleplaying was made for one purpose - having fun.

Stop acting like I am against RPing in some way, I again state, I never once suggested sacrificing RPing for fun. Simply, that RPing needs to be fun or there is no point to an RP server.



I've redone your little "chart"
ZORMITE pros:
Consistent with 2k1 History
Increased diversity
Awesome roleplaying experience
Kingdom uniqueness
Relation to the past
Goes along with the official storyline.

ZORMITE cons:
You're not human (if you consider this a con)

Pros 1 and 5 are the same, but you forget that to tie to the distant past, you have to break the connection to the recent past, which is of more Relavent to GK.
It would be nice to stick to the 'official storyline' but the entire history of Gk has not, and when it comes down to supporting the original story vs. having the GK server's last several years of history make sense, I strongly feel the second is far more important.

Also, as for 'Awesome roleplaying experience' if you implement the old style of zormite you limit their range dramatically. If they are human haters, they can't interact with other kingdoms at all other than in conflicts, which can't work on the server now anyway.


---

You have ignored everything I've said, everything anyone else had said, and continue to go against what we've said to prove us wrong when you have already been proven wrong. Examples? If they can ignore 2k1 history then I can ignore their 'history'.

I have pointed out how that logic is wrong more than once Zurk. The question is not if they can just up and choose to ignore a major part of history, but do they have the right to continue their current history, given that several years ago, when GK was first created, zormite broke from 2k1 history.
If as of yesterday, Zormite followed a 2k1 style storyline, and wanted to change their history to say they were always human, I would probably be on your side. However, that change occured a long long time ago - at the very start of GK. You have to break all history between then and now, in order to revert to a fish based zormite. It becomes an issue of what is more relevant, the way things were many, many years ago or the way things are now. I strongly argue, we should build on GK, and not just wipe it away over a characteristic that ceased to exist many years ago.

Recapture the past? Hardly. If I take Shakesphere and change all the names of the male protagonists to Zurkiba then that's just fine and dandy right? Well it's not. And if I did that then people would be pissed off at me.

That is a bad example, you are talking about changing a widely printed series of works. You can do it to your own copies for sure, as copyright laws for works as old as Shakespeare place them effectively in the public domain.

On the flip side, if you found an old manuscript, that offered an alternate ending to romeo and juliet that he had written, you could not 'demand' everyone discard the normal version of that play.

Now........the fact you chose to wipe the list of cons about changing zormite to fish people, gives me the impression you just don't care about those impacts. You don't care about the negative impact on 2k2 history, or that the people of zormite don't want changed, or how much it would disrupt the 2k2 server to wipe a long standing kingdom and replace it with some other version.
Granted, you can have your own priorities for sure, but if they don't reflect what other people want, you should not expect others to readily adopt your ideas, or agree with your views.

When you say you have said what 'everyone else has said' remember that the majority of GK is not interested in enacting your ideas for Zormite, and the members of Zormite surely are not interested at all.

GoZelda
01-08-2005, 07:52 PM
Roleplaying was made for one purpose - having fun.
Roleplaying wasn't 'made'... And I doubt that the origins were solely 'made' for fun.

busyrobot
01-09-2005, 03:06 AM
Roleplaying wasn't 'made'... And I doubt that the origins were solely 'made' for fun.

Uh, roleplaying was made as a form of entertainment, its a form of immersive dynamic storytelling. But do tell, what factors of roleplaying are more important than having fun? If you just have fun doing whatever and don't follow any rp rules, well of course that's not RPing, but when it comes to RPing, what is more important than having fun while you are rping?

GryffonDurime
01-09-2005, 03:22 AM
If the majority of RPers are humans that would hate Zormites for being another race, why haven't they jumped up and slaughtered the infidel Elves of the Forest?

busyrobot
01-09-2005, 06:59 AM
If the majority of RPers are humans that would hate Zormites for being another race, why haven't they jumped up and slaughtered the infidel Elves of the Forest?

I missed that - why would the human's hate zormites for being another race?

If zormites were human hating and genocidal then it would be cause for concern. My problem with them reverting to fish now is that it would undo GK history retroactively, which whether sad or not, is the only rp history we've been building for the last few years.

Zurkiba
01-09-2005, 08:54 AM
I missed that - why would the human's hate zormites for being another race?

If zormites were human hating and genocidal then it would be cause for concern. My problem with them reverting to fish now is that it would undo GK history retroactively, which whether sad or not, is the only rp history we've been building for the last few years.
And you step on your own feet here!
You fail to listen to me -_-

Just as we cant forget 2k2 history, they cant forget 2k1 history. And according to the timeline 2k1 set about there is no Zormite Republic.

So this is what you do. You rename it! GASP! The Zormites established a colony on an island but a tribe of primative humans attacked the settlements and the Zormites gave up on colonizing it.

busyrobot
01-10-2005, 02:45 AM
And you step on your own feet here!
You fail to listen to me -_-

Just as we cant forget 2k2 history, they cant forget 2k1 history. And according to the timeline 2k1 set about there is no Zormite Republic.


As you said yourself, the two histories are inconsistant with each other. Since 2k2 history is far more relevant (it is contemporary, is played, and is directly tied to the active server), it takes priority, naturally.

Zurkiba
01-10-2005, 02:48 AM
As you said yourself, the two histories are inconsistant with each other. Since 2k2 history is far more relevant (it is contemporary, is played, and is directly tied to the active server), it takes priority, naturally.
No, no it doesn't...

busyrobot
01-10-2005, 04:09 AM
No, no it doesn't...
Then explain why.

2k1 hasn't been played in years, 2k2 is being played as we speak and has been played for years. The interruptions caused by the changes that occured between 2k1 and 2k2 were years ago, and changing 2k2's history now to resemble 2k1 better would create new interruptions now.

This isn't superstring theory, its rather basic logic 101. So explain with some logic just why.

How can 2k1's history be more relevant to players than the history those very players have been a part of creating for the last several years?

fireedragn
01-11-2005, 12:30 AM
Zurk, you're right. 2K2 Zormites are supposed to be fishes. However if you made a strong case for retaining Zormite's fishiness way back when, then maybe something could have been done about it. Unfortunately, now it's just too late. I'd love to see Zormite become fishes again, but it won't happen. I agree with you that Zormite needs to change it's name because, in reality, it isn't even Zormite anymore.


Anyway, I agree that CP started to decline just as, or right before, Ghost Pirate left. GK was at it's high point when the highest level was 10ish. Now, GK is just a rotting, disease-ridden, smelly carcass. GK needs to die before it can live again. We need a server reset, dammit.

P.S. The original kingdom leaders were probably the best. I wish they'd come back. :(

Zurkiba
01-11-2005, 12:55 AM
Then explain why.

2k1 hasn't been played in years, 2k2 is being played as we speak and has been played for years. The interruptions caused by the changes that occured between 2k1 and 2k2 were years ago, and changing 2k2's history now to resemble 2k1 better would create new interruptions now.

This isn't superstring theory, its rather basic logic 101. So explain with some logic just why.

How can 2k1's history be more relevant to players than the history those very players have been a part of creating for the last several years?
I'll give you an answer when you supply me a question, a real question. You are a hypocrite and you obviously want the Zormites to remain human.

Like I said before, because a book is never read doesn't mean there is no story.

busyrobot
01-11-2005, 01:00 AM
I'll give you an answer when you supply me a question, a real question. You are a hypocrite and you obviously want the Zormites to remain human.

Like I said before, because a book is never read doesn't mean there is no story.
Um
How can 2k1's history be more relevant to players than the history those very players have been a part of creating for the last several years?

I never said 2k1 didn't have a story or that it was never read, just that regardless of whether its been read or not, why do you claim it is more relevant to players than the history those players have been a part of creating for the last several years?

Zurkiba
01-11-2005, 03:14 AM
I never said 2k1 didn't have a story or that it was never read, just that regardless of whether its been read or not, why do you claim it is more relevant to players than the history those players have been a part of creating for the last several years?
Wow, you did too say 2k1 didn't have a story. '2k1 is dead so it doesn't count', along those lines.

You said that it doesn't count... so if there is no book then there is no story.

And the German soldiers fought for Germany in WWII, not to kill the Jews. But when you see their flag that is what you see. If people are misinformed then they build from that misinformation. If I say that I have proof that the world is cubical then some scientist could say 'I have proof that the angles are perfect 90 degree angles'... it just builds ontop of each other, but in the end it is -wrong-.

People write stories to correspond to an overall story. If I were to write a book, lets say a fantasy book, then I would not put in 'OMGZ NE1 GOTZ 1?'. No, if you want to include that information then you would word it differently.

This is Zen's story: Revolution against Toran - Rise of the Archist Party.
Here is the real story: Revolution against Toran - Zen does traditional stuff - Makes it into Zormite Republic

He rewrote the story to follow a better roleplaying book.

So how do we solve this? The Zormites say their history was fish OR they just cut all ties from Zormite and make a new kingdom. A rose is not a tulip no matter how long you look at it. What's so wrong with becoming the Booga Republic or what ever? Would it really take that much work? If it would then I would personally do the work.

Padren, final request. Start to be logical and stop being a damn hypocrite

Nappa
01-11-2005, 10:53 PM
So how do we solve this? The Zormites say their history was fish OR they just cut all ties from Zormite and make a new kingdom. A rose is not a tulip no matter how long you look at it. What's so wrong with becoming the Booga Republic or what ever? Would it really take that much work? If it would then I would personally do the work.


This is all that I want. I am not forcing you guys to do anything else. You guys have already thrown away the fact that the entire 2k1 Zormite existed, cut all ties with them and change your name. Your name is Zormite because you know, it has to do with the fact that you are (supposed to be) fishes.

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/3043/winky.gif

GoZelda
01-11-2005, 11:08 PM
I'd just like to state the following:
On 2k1, the Zormites hated humans. Correct?
So, when they got blasted away from 2k1 and had to sail to some stupid island, they ofcourse still hated the humans - the moon probably was their fault somehow.
So, when some settlers come on their island, they're just gonna take it?
Like wtf. Even if you don't hate a certain race you won't just let them take your ground. The Zormites would have to be slaughtered, or the humans.
So, if the Zormites won, how the bloody hell comes they aren't fishes?
So, if the humans won, how the bloody hell comes they're call themselves Zormites?

There. Go write a new pathetic attempt at covering up your kingdom's ineptitude at RPing.

Zurkiba
01-12-2005, 12:13 AM
So, when they got blasted away from 2k1 and had to sail to some stupid island, they ofcourse still hated the humans - the moon probably was their fault somehow.
Techincally the Zormites never left the 2k1 island. They were the only kingdom to remain behind, they did establish a small colony though. Then the metor hit and communications were lost for a short time.

busyrobot
01-13-2005, 01:38 AM
Wow, you did too say 2k1 didn't have a story. '2k1 is dead so it doesn't count', along those lines.

You said that it doesn't count... so if there is no book then there is no story.


It has a story but it is dead, and when you weight two equal RP disruptions, one being zormite going human, and the other of zormite going to fish, you have to weigh which distrupts the past and what disrupts the present to determine which is of greater importance.

Look, I am not being hypcritical. If Zormite started out as human, but became fish the moment GK started - I would be arguing they need to stay fish. If 2k1 had gone with a human zormite dispite your wishes, and changed to fish at the start of 2k2, I doubt you'd be arguing for a change of them to humans now.


And the German soldiers fought for Germany in WWII, not to kill the Jews. But when you see their flag that is what you see. If people are misinformed then they build from that misinformation. If I say that I have proof that the world is cubical then some scientist could say 'I have proof that the angles are perfect 90 degree angles'... it just builds ontop of each other, but in the end it is -wrong-.

Um, I don't understand what you are saying here. The German soldiers fought for Germany and the extermination of the Jews, and I suspect their families back home would feel reprocussions if they defected, so you can throw that into the mix too.
What do you mean by their flag - the **** flag? Yeah...that pretty much stands for all the goals of the 3rd Reich. What are you getting at?

The world is not cubical and that is a demonstratable fact. You build on something faulty it falls apart. I assume you are implying that I am building on some element of false logic, but I have agreed with all your factual points, such as that Zormite of course was a fish kingdom on 2k1 and was a human kingdom at the start of 2k2. What other 'mis'facts do you think I am wrongly building on?

People write stories to correspond to an overall story. If I were to write a book, lets say a fantasy book, then I would not put in 'OMGZ NE1 GOTZ 1?'.

... :eek: ... gooood

No, if you want to include that information then you would word it differently.

This is Zen's story: Revolution against Toran - Rise of the Archist Party.
Here is the real story: Revolution against Toran - Zen does traditional stuff - Makes it into Zormite Republic

Elements like 'Zen does traditional stuff' are exceptionally vague - you can't expect that to mean anything to anyone who doesn't know what it references in your head.

He rewrote the story to follow a better roleplaying book.

I think that GK as a whole staff wise, is responsible for the 'zormite of humans' thing.

So how do we solve this? The Zormites say their history was fish OR they just cut all ties from Zormite and make a new kingdom. A rose is not a tulip no matter how long you look at it. What's so wrong with becoming the Booga Republic or what ever? Would it really take that much work? If it would then I would personally do the work.

On GK the Zormites have never had a history of fish. On GK they have always been the Zormites, and your strange obsession with making some perfect matchup with 2k1 may make sense to you but has a high cost to GK and does no real good.

So, you want to say, that Zormite has been fish all along, and when they fought along side us they were actually killing us for being ebil humans, and everything that has happened in the entire history of GK just doesn't matter?

It is not logical to put more value on 2k1's history than on 2k2's history, when 2k1 has been out of the loop of graal for years and has nothing to do with any of the modern events in GK other than a conceptual seed at the origin of GK.


Padren, final request. Start to be logical and stop being a damn hypocrite
Get over yourself. Your logic is flawed. As I said, if zormite started out as humans and changed to fish at the start of GK, I'd be arguing they should stay fish. I am consistant and not being hypocritical at all. Look up the word if you have to.

Moonite
01-13-2005, 01:50 AM
Could u Guys Stop?
Im Not Going to Read this anymore -_-

Nappa
01-13-2005, 03:36 AM
Padren, don't you see that noone here is buying your crappy arguements but yourself ?

God, you need to stop being so airheaded.

Nappa
01-13-2005, 03:37 AM
Could u Guys Stop?
Im Not Going to Read this anymore -_-

Noones forcing you to read anything. Go to another forum if you don't want to read it.

Zurkiba
01-13-2005, 03:42 AM
Padren, I'm not even going to reply to that. Much like I wont stare at a pile of dog crap.

You dont realise that you are wrong. And no, that's not my opinion. If you came in here and said 2+2=5 then I would slap you and then find your teachers and slap them and then I would tell you that you are wrong. Same situation here.

Edit//
and 2k1 and 2k2 are directly linked. Read the storyline. 2k1 kingdoms moved to 2k2.

Nappa
01-13-2005, 03:48 AM
Padren, I'm not even going to reply to that. Much like I wont stare at a pile of dog crap.

They are both almost the same thing anyway.

busyrobot
01-13-2005, 04:29 AM
Padren, I'm not even going to reply to that. Much like I wont stare at a pile of dog crap.

You can't reply to it, you're arguments have fully broken down and you are left only with weak insults.

You dont realise that you are wrong. And no, that's not my opinion. If you came in here and said 2+2=5 then I would slap you and then find your teachers and slap them and then I would tell you that you are wrong. Same situation here.

Except that in this case, I am saying 2+2=4. Get your math right ;)

Edit//
and 2k1 and 2k2 are directly linked. Read the storyline. 2k1 kingdoms moved to 2k2.
Never said they weren't.
All I said, is that when you have a discrepency that occured years ago, and the only way to fix that discrepency is to create a new one now of at least equal size, it is better - since you'll have one either way - to leave the discrepency in the past instead of create a new one that messes up current affairs.

Zurkiba
01-13-2005, 05:08 AM
You can't reply to it, you're arguments have fully broken down and you are left only with weak insults.

Except that in this case, I am saying 2+2=4. Get your math right ;)

Never said they weren't.
All I said, is that when you have a discrepency that occured years ago, and the only way to fix that discrepency is to create a new one now of at least equal size, it is better - since you'll have one either way - to leave the discrepency in the past instead of create a new one that messes up current affairs.
The fact of the matter is this, I've already ANSWERED your "arguements" (if that's what you want to call them) and you're just filibustering now.

My arguements have not been broken down, I'm just not going to repeat myself to bicker over the internet.

busyrobot
01-13-2005, 10:24 AM
The fact of the matter is this, I've already ANSWERED your "arguements" (if that's what you want to call them) and you're just filibustering now.

My arguements have not been broken down, I'm just not going to repeat myself to bicker over the internet.

Then do quote your words of wisdom and put me in my place. So far all I have seen is you say "Zormite is fish" dispite the fact it has clearly not been, that "Nappa is a true Zormite" when no one in Zormite would consider him one and he fails any meaningful test of what it is to be Zormite.

You have said that "2k1 is more important than 2k2" without giving any reason why. You have made the -decent- point that the sequential story line of 2k1 to 2k2 is broken by the shift to humans, and I never disagreed with that. I have not seen you make any argument though how preserving that story line at the expense of GK history is in GK's better interest or serves the interests of why 2k1/2k2 had a storyline in the first place.

I cannot filibuster as there is nothing you can do that I would block. Everyone in Zormite and the probably most other active players in GK consider the idea cracked.
Even if you convinced Stefan to force a change against the people of Zormite's own will, that is not something I can effect and therefore still can't be considered filibustering against.

You have not given any reason why 2k1's history, is more important than 2k2's history. You have stated that it makes a story, and that the story is better preserved by ratifying 2k2's history. But if you are going to ratify the story at all, why not ratify the 2k1 history instead, since no one has been playing with the derivations that set that history apart from GK...for the entire history of GK? That would have a much smaller (zero actually) impact on players today, yet would fix the discrepency that bothers you so much.

Personally, I think that the hiccup in the history, should be worked around in a way that preserves both histories the best, but I guess I am sentimental that way. I suppose if you are really die hard set on having a consistent storybook style history, it would not bother me if you changed 2k1 to fit 2k2's history, but I suspect it would bother a lot of old players, and if that was the case I'd still end up arguing it should be left alone or the impact minimized.

Zurkiba
01-14-2005, 12:20 AM
Then do quote your words of wisdom and put me in my place. So far all I have seen is you say "Zormite is fish" dispite the fact it has clearly not been, that "Nappa is a true Zormite" when no one in Zormite would consider him one and he fails any meaningful test of what it is to be Zormite.
I never said any of those (excluding the Zormite are fishes part)

Obviously YOU do not know what it is to be Zormite

And I am not going to go through this thread because you're too lazy to use your damn finger. You want everyone to do the work for you because you're just damn lazy.


You have said that "2k1 is more important than 2k2" without giving any reason why. You have made the -decent- point that the sequential story line of 2k1 to 2k2 is broken by the shift to humans, and I never disagreed with that. I have not seen you make any argument though how preserving that story line at the expense of GK history is in GK's better interest or serves the interests of why 2k1/2k2 had a storyline in the first place.
Have I really stated 2k1 is more important than 2k2? Doubtful, so stop putting quotation marks around stuff I've never said.

I've already answered the rest of your question in a previous post.



You have not given any reason why 2k1's history, is more important than 2k2's history. You have stated that it makes a story, and that the story is better preserved by ratifying 2k2's history. But if you are going to ratify the story at all, why not ratify the 2k1 history instead, since no one has been playing with the derivations that set that history apart from GK...for the entire history of GK? That would have a much smaller (zero actually) impact on players today, yet would fix the discrepency that bothers you so much.
It would be similiar to if Lord of the Rings came out, then the Two Towers had Jean-Luc and the Enterprise attacking the Klingons. It just doesn't work. The same for this situation.

About the change 2k1 history, no. If that happens then Graal Kingdoms is dead and the rest are retarded. It would be as if you took Shakespere and spit on it, then you rewrote it all.

If you would actually open your mind you would've understood the misinformation part. But no, you're too ignorant and stupid to understand any of it.



Personally, I think that the hiccup in the history, should be worked around in a way that preserves both histories the best, but I guess I am sentimental that way. I suppose if you are really die hard set on having a consistent storybook style history, it would not bother me if you changed 2k1 to fit 2k2's history, but I suspect it would bother a lot of old players, and if that was the case I'd still end up arguing it should be left alone or the impact minimized.
Read above.

----

I'm getting tired of fighting with you. You just cant argue. It would be if you were to be in a quizbowl with a mentally handicaped person who has never been in school.

So stop repeating yourself and if you want to post here then post logical things. And listen to me when I tell you that you are wrong.

busyrobot
01-14-2005, 01:03 AM
I never said any of those (excluding the Zormite are fishes part)

You did say that nappa is a true zormite and the fact he is not on the member list does not mean he's not a member.

So when you say 'any of those except the one' and we are discussing two points, the second of which you also actually did say, sorry, what the heck are you talking about?

Obviously YOU do not know what it is to be Zormite

Exactly what it means to be Dustarian or a Forest member or a CP etc: to be on the member list and generally considered a member of that kingdom by its own member base. If a kingdom leader lets you join, then regardless of what the members say, you are a member and they can take it or leave it. If you get kicked out but most of the members consider you a member still, that is a gray zone. If you are not on the list and no one in that kingdom considers you a member, that means you are obviously not a member.

I don't know why you have trouble with such a simple concept, you really do get thick headed.


And I am not going to go through this thread because you're too lazy to use your damn finger. You want everyone to do the work for you because you're just damn lazy.

I actually have gone to the effort of debating you when most others say not to bother, you are a tard that won't change your opinions regardless of any amount of logic and will never conceed regardless of any amount of evidence you are wrong. I hardly would say I am lazy.


Have I really stated 2k1 is more important than 2k2? Doubtful, so stop putting quotation marks around stuff I've never said.

Everytime I have stated the obvious, that the integrity of 2k2 has priority over the integrity of 2k1, you have said "no" and quite clearly stated 2k1 takes priority. Read your own words before you claim others are putting words in your mouth.


I've already answered the rest of your question in a previous post.

Your answers have been heavily flawed, read below.

It would be similiar to if Lord of the Rings came out, then the Two Towers had Jean-Luc and the Enterprise attacking the Klingons. It just doesn't work. The same for this situation.

The goal of the Lord of the Rings is to tell a story, 2k1/GK is a roleplaying server, where the goal of telling a consistant story is a minor factor in trying to aid roleplaying.
Your example also has no bearing on time, which is a critical component of this debate. The break in the story line occured long in the past, and a different storyline has been played out ever since, that is consistent and has been consistent with itself ever since.

You cite an example where all sense breaks down at that moment and nothing can make sense going forward whatsoever, which is very different than the situation on GK.

About the change 2k1 history, no. If that happens then Graal Kingdoms is dead and the rest are retarded. It would be as if you took Shakespere and spit on it, then you rewrote it all.

First, explain how that would kill GK - you make statements as if they are facts, you could add fruitloops to 2k1's history for all I care and it would not change one thing on 2k2.

As to Shakespere, explain such a bizzare comparison. 2k1 is no Shakespere, nor is its purpose supposed to be vaguely similar. It was a server that people played to have fun and roleplay, but it is not used anymore. It was used as the basis for GK's story, but clearly history shows it was not used entirely and some elements were dropped.
No one is going to write a tolkienesque book about 2k1/2k2 and if they did, they would have to modify much of it just for it to be entertianing - which would be entirely fine anyway. RP servers are supposed to be played and have fun roleplaying on, but you seem to act like they have to be intransient from conception to death, and the original storyline must be maintained at all costs, regardless of whether you have to destroy years of contemporary history or not. The storyline only exists to contribute to the fun and interest of an RP server, and if you have to change the storyline due to some problem with it, it does - sorry to say it - make more sense to change the past then the present. You act as if 2k1 stumbled on some sort of holy RP perfection - it did not. It is just a storyline like any other.


If you would actually open your mind you would've understood the misinformation part. But no, you're too ignorant and stupid to understand any of it.

Who is being close minded?

Read above.
----
I'm getting tired of fighting with you. You just cant argue. It would be if you were to be in a quizbowl with a mentally handicaped person who has never been in school.

So stop repeating yourself and if you want to post here then post logical things. And listen to me when I tell you that you are wrong.

You are being a fool Zurk. You spend all your time being beligerent and not even trying to debate, so of course you are getting tired. You have a handful of concepts about RPing and this server especially, that are rather flawed and not shared by the general community at large.

I would not bother to debate you at this point but I am rather sick and tired of the long since settled fish issue coming up when it has so long since been put to death.
I cannot help the fact you did not get your way back when GK was first started, there was a chance for your ideas to work had they been implemented then.

However, you continue to push the point, I mean, sorry, you lost it a long time ago, and your arguments have less basis now than they did when GK was first constructed.

Gore lost the 2000 election - even if he got more votes. That is a long settled issue, but do Gore supporters drag every dumb thread off into how 'everything will suck until it is fixed that....' and stuff? No, and if they did, they'd meet as much resistance as you do now.

Friendly advice: Your ideas failed, move on. Improve GK based on GK, and get over your old ideas that only made sense if they were implemented when GK was first launched.

LordZen
01-14-2005, 05:00 AM
Zurkiba himself helped me form a logical bridge between 2k1 and 2k2's history gap. I read a thread a long time ago, I believe in the 2k1 forum, and used what happened on 2k2 to help explain the new state of a kingdom on 2k1 when that server was to be revived. He said "until the rise of the Archist Party".

So, anyways, I think the histories are easily connected. The way in which we retell history about these servers is not that we make it up as we go. But rather, we take the events that actually happened, and add background to it based around those events, so that the true history can be retold as a good story. That is of course, the goal.

So, when I read that, it made me think. And I believe I have a great way to link the histories and explain the situation of 2k2's Zormite, while still being true to the histories that actually happened.

Near the end of the 2k1 era, a meteorite came crashing down, killing many and throwing the human kingdoms into disarray. The Dustarian kingdom was most affected, as that was the site of impact, while the Zormite kingdom was least affected, as they had the water to retreat to, etc.

So, groups of humans left their old home which was still very much in chaos and ruin, with the intention of colonizing a new group of islands. The Zormite kingdom, with their own interests in mind, obviously wanted a foothold of their own in this new region, having the most population to spare and of course not wanting to be at some sort of disadvantage in the future. So, even though they were least needing, a group of Zormites were dispatched and settled in the North Western area of the new region.

All of the colonies were very distant from their homeland, and communication between the old and new worlds were few and far between. The Zormite colony was originally set up to mirror the government of its homeland, with an appointed Regent at its head.

The conflicts and tensions of the old world were not that of the new world. The colonials had no reason to bicker between one another on behalf of their motherland. Even if a kingdom was at war with another, the colonies would have no way of knowing it. As a result, the Zormite and Dustarian colonies formed warm diplomatic relations which survived throughout most of 2k2's history.

Also, since there was originally 4 human colonies and 1 zormite colony, with time the pace of procreation of the human race outmatched that of the zormite race by far. The zormite colony was finding it difficult to maintain itself and began to worry about defense issues being so sparsely populated in contrast to all other colonies. With this in mind, the Zormites of the colony saw little reason to hold steadfast to their archaic xenophobic principles. Instead, they chose to allow humans to settle on their island, have families, fill the gaps, and be integrated into colonial Zormite society.

The first zormite appointed to govern the colony by the homeland, was Hippie. He oversaw the colony's early development, but was quickly replaced. A replacement was sent from the homeland before Hippie was even able to officially take the title of Regent. It was thought that the mood back in the old world had changed suddenly, and the leadership felt that more of a hardliner was necessary to run the colony. Torkanansu was their answer.

He often left management of the kingdom to others, and retreated to his villa and enjoyed the fruits of his position. His power, and the absence of a superior watching over him regularly, got to his head, and began to disregard the wants and needs of the colony's people. During Torkanansu's reign, was also the time in which humans were allowed to come to the island and settle. They were already beginning to gain a significant voice within the colony.

One, Zen Archigos, formerly captain of the Santa Maria, settled on the Zormite island when the ban on immigration was lifted. He made a modest living serving as the colony's ambassador in its early days, which was naturally given to him even though being a Human, because no zormites had adventured far off of the island, and this Zen Archigos had extensive knowledge of the waters and lands of the new world (having been a sea captain, and all).

The Regent Torkanansu elevated Zen Archigos's status from ambassador to Elder, having proven his loyalty with earlier service to the government, and needing a representative of the human population in his colonial government. After this point, there was 2 Elders, one Human and one Zormite. However, when the Elder representing the Zormite population fell ill and died, Torkanansu saw little reason to replace him, being a zormite himself, and not trusting many others to begin with.

A popular rebellion sparked later, as a result of Regent Torkanansu's continued distaste for becoming involved with the day-to-day dealings of government. The figurehead representing the Zormite motherland was dethroned. Zormites and Humans alike rallied together removing Torkanansu from power. The rebellion, of course, got out of hand, all realized that their actions constituted war against an established power of the old world, and the human populations started accusing zormites of being loyalists. The zormite's decision to lay down their xenophobic ways ultimately backfired, as the humans they accepted into their realm became xenophobic themselves, fearing that zormite citizens might attempt to send word to the homeland of what had taken place. So, a slaughtering of zormites took place in the absence of a governing authority. Within days of Torkanansu being thrown off of the island, genocide was taking place. The new human majority feared a retaliation by the Zormite homeland before getting a chance to organize a defensive force to counter it. As a result, a minority of those humans systematically wiped many of them out before the new governing authority was able to set up a militia and cease the practice.

Zen Archigos, took the title of emperor, and attempted to preserve the traditions and culture that the humans of the island had been assimilated into over the years. At first, his new government mirrored that of the style in which the Zormite hierarchy operated within. Humans found guilty of the genocide, where executed, and those found aiding in the practice were imprisoned. The remaining Zormite population was not allowed to leave the island for some time, largely forced into house arrest in most instances, until the threat of being easily reconquered dwindled.

Zen Archigos established his bloodline as a new line of nobility, and sought to maintain that his royal bloodline would continue to govern this new Zormite "kingdom". He continued to rule the island under a monarchial system until unrest grew to such a point that he willingly allowed for a constitution to be drawn up and withdrew his mandate to rule. The National Archist Party of Zormite (NAPZ) took the reigns from this point onward, and established itself as the only legal political party within the new republic. Zen Archigos managed to regain power due to popularity and the fact that the Archist party was a group of loyalist citizens, who sought to put the royal Archigos bloodline back in power, even without the former mandate that name once carried.

In Zen Archigos's early days as a sea captain aboard the Santa Maria, he dropped anchor in Dustari many times, having spent most of his sailing time in the region of ocean between the Zormite and Dustarian islands. It was later discovered that a lady he had a short romance with on the Dustarian island was a Sagesun, and had given birth to a daughter out of wedlock. The Archist Party jumped at this opportunity, and made arrangements to have this Wren Sagesun "Archigos" come to the Zormite island and become involved with its government, so that when Zen's time to step down came, the Archist party could form a more permanent union with their closest ally in the new world (Dustari) and at the same time keeping true to their loyalist principles.

I could have filled in more at the end but this is getting long and the primary objective was to link 2k1 and 2k2, not explain -everything-. Thats the official history that I will be sticking to.

Zurkiba
01-14-2005, 06:03 AM
Nice story, doesn't explain the fact that they'd keep the Zormite name and how the people would be assimiliated into the culture after like 5-20 years or what ever. How come the Zormites aren't a mix of Samurai, Dustari, and Pirates?

How come the humans wouldn't have elfs as workers too?

busyrobot
01-14-2005, 07:04 AM
Nice story, doesn't explain the fact that they'd keep the Zormite name and how the people would be assimiliated into the culture after like 5-20 years or what ever. How come the Zormites aren't a mix of Samurai, Dustari, and Pirates?

How come the humans wouldn't have elfs as workers too?

Not sure about what the official explination is, but there are lots of very good possible reasons.


For example, it is actually very common, that when people of lesser development (often illiterate, poor farming techniques, etc) are drawn into a rich and more educated culture, they very quickly adopt to many of those cultural elements - specifically the ones that increase their ability to live well.
It is quite plausable that in one generation (20 years is a modern generation, but in ancient times people had children certianly by 15) human children will have been taught to read and write zormite as their first language, and the zormite religions would often have appeal as it would be the religions of their great benefactors. Going from such a low level of society to a much better one would likely give the humans reason to take pride in being part of zormite, and even if many of the humans engaged in the bloodier parts of the revolution, the nation as a whole would not specifically just abandon the old name.
It wouldn't be the most affluent humans of the lands that would have colonized on Zormite afterall.
France was not renamed during the French Revolution, so why should Zormite?

Anyway Zurk, why not be constructive and find solutions instead of problems with things like this - it solves that whole thing that bothered you so much about the historical split.

LordZen
01-14-2005, 08:26 AM
Nice story, doesn't explain the fact that they'd keep the Zormite name and how the people would be assimiliated into the culture after like 5-20 years or what ever. How come the Zormites aren't a mix of Samurai, Dustari, and Pirates?

How come the humans wouldn't have elfs as workers too?
As written, it was the new emperor himself who took special care in preserving the traditions of the Zormite culture. So even if you do want to maintain that the humans did not accept the Zormite way of life after living that way of life exclusively for decades, then it could be argued that since the new ruler made special efforts to keep things more or less unchanged during the transition at first, the status quo was maintained and the populus was given just that much more time to "adopt" this way of life (which they had already grown acustomed to).

I beleive in the story, the Zormites lifted the ban on immigration of -humans-. Comeon, that was already a stretch considering their past, and humans were much more well known to zormites than some other smaller species which they woudl have had even less contact with. They decided to be less xenophobic..but they didnt let go of their preconvictions completely.

Besides, why would elves want to immigrate? There is not a big enough population of them to be scampering everywhere, either. If they even still exist on Forest.

Come to think of it, how do you explain the timeline of Forest? What happen to all of the elves during the reign of Astri? And how do you explain every single viking being wiped out and disappearing during the transition back to Forest?

Strange, it sounded like my story satisfied you before when I first told you it, because as you said then, its fine for Zormite to consist primarily of humans as long as there is still a few zormites around, because you objected to the idea of zormites completely disappearing, and wanted an explaination as to why the population diminished so badly.

Your complaint then was, there was never an explaination as to why humans took over.

Nappa
01-14-2005, 08:39 PM
long story here

I don't understand. Zormites live hundreds of years AND have more babies then humans due to they lay eggs like fish. Why are they being outpaced by humans ?

Zurkiba
01-14-2005, 09:35 PM
Anyway Zurk, why not be constructive and find solutions instead of problems with things like this - it solves that whole thing that bothered you so much about the historical split.
READ MY DAMN POSTS DAMN IT. I've already given you an answer
Archigos Republic

---

Zen, you've changed your story since then.

I fail to understand why you want Zormite to be a human kingdom. 'Because people want to rp as a human'? Well they can join Samurai, Dustari, or Pirates.

A teacher once told me that the only constant of the universe is truth. Which is why I say that Padren is wrong. But Padren has failed to understand this.

The whole arguement isn't why aren't there Zormites on 2k2. Far from it. It's why are you calling people Zormites when they're not. 2k2 has taken one of the best organized and played traditions of Graal and taken a big stinking crap on it. Why's that?

What's so hard about just renaming it to the Archigos Republic? It fits the theme.

If the current Zormites are following the 'old' traditions then how come they're not following the traditions of the Zaeri? Not to mention, the Zormite Fascism has already denounced the previous history.

The elfs are plenty, before the kingdoms took their colonies the elf peoples owned the six islands.

As stated in previous roleplayings the Elfs were enslaved and/or jailed. Most were killed in the prisons. Samurai later attacked Astri and found a single jail with some elven within. They were set free while the Astrians died in a last stand and Erik killed himself.

busyrobot
01-14-2005, 09:52 PM
READ MY DAMN POSTS DAMN IT. I've already given you an answer
Archigos Republic

You have given no historical reason why a nation known as the Zormite Republic would suddenly change their name to the Archigos Republic, it seems they've liked their name so far, why change now? That would be ignoring the truth of the name they have held for all of GK.

A teacher once told me that the only constant of the universe is truth. Which is why I say that you are wrong. But you have failed to understand this.
---

I fail to understand why you want Zormite to be a human kingdom. 'Because people want to rp as a human'? Well they can join Samurai, Dustari, or Pirates.

Who are you to tell people they can't be human in Zormite? Zormite has had humans for years - and thats the truth, which is the only constant of the universe.


The whole arguement isn't why aren't there Zormites on 2k2. Far from it. It's why are you calling people Zormites when they're not. 2k2 has taken one of the best organized and played traditions of Graal and taken a big stinking crap on it. Why's that?

Meh, honestly the old zormite doesn't sound that interesting, I mean, come on, if you want to play with any of your friends or trade etc, you have to be ooc or kill their human butts. How can you have a xenophobic race in a game where all trade and resources are gathered in one giant middle island?

Of course, if they were that way on 2k2 from the beginning, I would be defending their right to be that way.


What's so hard about just renaming it to the Archigos Republic? It fits the theme.

Not really, they are kinda proud of being zormites actually.


If the current Zormites are following the 'old' traditions then how come they're not following the traditions of the Zaeri? Not to mention, the Zormite Fascism has already denounced the previous history.

We could bicker down the details to the point of explaining every little nuance in a satisfactory way, at which point you'll ask why so and so had oatmeal for breakfast when bacon and eggs were so common. :rolleyes:

The real question is where do you get off being judge and jury? We are just humoring you afterall. My point is that every single question you are asking is about the details of evolution zormite culture, but not one of your questions actually challanging the plausability, which is your intention. You hope that no plausable explaination is possible, and somehow, boom, zormite will become fish people or change their name. Your line of questioning has ceased to challange the plausability though, so I think you are more or less filibustering at this point (based on your use of that word).

Zurkiba
01-14-2005, 10:39 PM
You have given no historical reason why a nation known as the Zormite Republic would suddenly change their name to the Archigos Republic, it seems they've liked their name so far, why change now? That would be ignoring the truth of the name they have held for all of GK.
I have too given you reason, they were built on misinformation and I were to write a book about RPing on 2k2 I wouldn't have Soldier selling newbs of (Dustari) screaming 'ne1 gotz a swerd be +6?'


Who are you to tell people they can't be human in Zormite? Zormite has had humans for years - and thats the truth, which is the only constant of the universe.
That's your flaw, Zormites AREN'T HUMANS!
You failed to understand the quote -_-


Meh, honestly the old zormite doesn't sound that interesting, I mean, come on, if you want to play with any of your friends or trade etc, you have to be ooc or kill their human butts. How can you have a xenophobic race in a game where all trade and resources are gathered in one giant middle island?
Yeah, because we know to make things more interesting we add a human nation which is almost exactly like Dustari only we change the rank names. So instead of kingdoms that are unique we have just one kind of kingdom. OH MY DEAR LORD THE FUN INSUES.

Outside relations were allowed when the circimstances allowed (eg: Dustari Conquest of Zormite, Zormite conquest of Samurai). But no Human would be allowed.


Of course, if they were that way on 2k2 from the beginning, I would be defending their right to be that way.
According to Zen's storyline it was. And according to Zen it's the 'official story'


Not really, they are kinda proud of being zormites actually.
Kind of like how people in Siberia can be proud of being Martian right? I would agree with you if they were Zormites. But they're not.

A tulip is NOT a rose no matter how long you look at it.

busyrobot
01-14-2005, 11:36 PM
I have too given you reason, they were built on misinformation and I were to write a book about RPing on 2k2 I wouldn't have Soldier selling newbs of (Dustari) screaming 'ne1 gotz a swerd be +6?'

The history of 2k1 was well known at the start of 2k2, and the fact that an element of misinformation caused a discrepency a few years back is no reason to create new discrepencies with all the history since then.

And based on Zen's post, I would hardly say your misinformation comment is that well founded.

And good show about the book writing, however no one has asked you to write a book with that comment or any similar ones.

That's your flaw, Zormites AREN'T HUMANS!
You failed to understand the quote -_-

That is your flaw, zormites have been human for all of GK's history.

Yeah, because we know to make things more interesting we add a human nation which is almost exactly like Dustari only we change the rank names. So instead of kingdoms that are unique we have just one kind of kingdom. OH MY DEAR LORD THE FUN INSUES.

I have no interest in playing in a republic, but I do in a kingdom. Nor am I interested in samurai or pirating. I don't really want to be an elf. Some people do want to be elves, or pirates, or samurai, or even be in a republic, or in a monarchy. I am glad GK is so diverse, I hope no one ruins it.


Outside relations were allowed when the circimstances allowed (eg: Dustari Conquest of Zormite, Zormite conquest of Samurai). But no Human would be allowed.

Conquerors and the defeated don't exactly have warm relationships as a general rule, that is why you failed to take over the world and samurai 'betrayed' you remember?

According to Zen's storyline it was. And according to Zen it's the 'official story'

By which I obviously meant, if the 2k1 zormite had humans and it had been changed to fish for 2k2 around the time of its inception, I would defend their right to be fish and fight your attempts to change it against their will.

Kind of like how people in Siberia can be proud of being Martian right? I would agree with you if they were Zormites. But they're not.

They have been zormites for all of GK, why can't you accept the truth of that?
A tulip is NOT a rose no matter how long you look at it.
Exactly, and no matter how long you stare at GK, zormite will never be fish people.

Zurkiba
01-15-2005, 12:32 AM
Padren, do you even read the posts?

According to your own words you are now supporting me. So thanks I guess.

But if you support me then why do you continue to hassle me?

Read posts from now on Padren and you MIGHT be able to argue.

You dont get the quotes, you put them in obsurb replies. If I said 'In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth' you would go, 'Exactly that's why everyone should get one dollar from the government'.

You're not using your mind, and you're keeping it closed.

And no, I'm not close-minded. If I'm closed-minded then I guess all of your teachers are too because they teach the basics and the truth. If I told you that 1+1=2 and you tried to convince me that 1+1=3 then I am not close-minded.

LordZen
01-15-2005, 03:27 AM
I don't understand. Zormites live hundreds of years AND have more babies then humans due to they lay eggs like fish. Why are they being outpaced by humans ?
If this is the case, Nappa, then explain why the Zormite race stayed in the minority vs the human race throughout the entire history of 2k1? 10 eggs does not garauntee 10 children, either.

Zen, you've changed your story since then.
And what, pray tell, have I changed since then which has caused your newfound dislike for that presented line of history?

That's your flaw, Zormites AREN'T HUMANS!
You failed to understand the quote -_-
He is obviously refering to Zormite as a nation, not an ethnicity. But aside from that, I do not understand, you have even said yourself that humans were in Zormite in 2k1.

It really sounds to me like you are the one changing your story. This Archigos Republic idea is completely new, and you told me yourself that it was fine to call it Zormite as long as the storyline supported even only a few zormite people to still have survived. Your whole issue, a couple weeks ago, was that the zormites just disappeared and a proper acceptable explaination was never presented. Your position was previously, a Human majority in 2k2 Zormite was O.K.

Nappa
01-15-2005, 03:43 AM
If this is the case, Nappa, then explain why the Zormite race stayed in the minority vs the human race throughout the entire history of 2k1? 10 eggs does not garauntee 10 children, either.

Because their was no reason to multiply their race. More people would require more people to feed, more expenses, etc.. So the people purposely didn't mate that often.

Why praytell don't humans have a baby every year in real life ? The same reasons.

However in the need of more zormites to preserve their way of life, I'm sure they would mate.

And as for humans being in Zormite and 2k1, either you read wrong or someone lied to you. We have said that their were none.

Zurkiba
01-15-2005, 04:18 AM
If this is the case, Nappa, then explain why the Zormite race stayed in the minority vs the human race throughout the entire history of 2k1? 10 eggs does not garauntee 10 children, either.
With each kingdom comes an invisible kingdom. It's similiar to how Dustari continues to grow yet there may only be three females in the kingdom.


And what, pray tell, have I changed since then which has caused your newfound dislike for that presented line of history?
I dont dislike it, It could work but there are still flaws in it.


He is obviously refering to Zormite as a nation, not an ethnicity. But aside from that, I do not understand, you have even said yourself that humans were in Zormite in 2k1.
That's a negative. No Humans have been in Zormite. The closest thing was a Dustarian Governor, who didn't even get actual power.


It really sounds to me like you are the one changing your story. This Archigos Republic idea is completely new, and you told me yourself that it was fine to call it Zormite as long as the storyline supported even only a few zormite people to still have survived. Your whole issue, a couple weeks ago, was that the zormites just disappeared and a proper acceptable explaination was never presented. Your position was previously, a Human majority in 2k2 Zormite was O.K.
Granted, a few Zormits would be fine. It would actually support your storyline. But right now you have a storyline in which a person could just easily say *kills all humans with uber magic*, it has flaws.

But the fact is why in the hell would they have a second Zormite nation when it isn't really Zormite?

Last question: Why are you so intent on wanting Zormites to be human?

busyrobot
01-15-2005, 07:28 AM
Padren, do you even read the posts?

According to your own words you are now supporting me. So thanks I guess.

But if you support me then why do you continue to hassle me?

Read posts from now on Padren and you MIGHT be able to argue.

You dont get the quotes, you put them in obsurb replies. If I said 'In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth' you would go, 'Exactly that's why everyone should get one dollar from the government'.

You're not using your mind, and you're keeping it closed.

And no, I'm not close-minded. If I'm closed-minded then I guess all of your teachers are too because they teach the basics and the truth. If I told you that 1+1=2 and you tried to convince me that 1+1=3 then I am not close-minded.

You are really loosing it Zurk, meltdown much?

I have been very consistent. You feel that since you feel there is a discrepency between 2k1 and 2k2, all of 2k2's history should be scratched to hold true to the 'truth' that was 2k1. I argue, to do that, you have to ignore the 'truth' of all of 2k2's history, and that doing that would have a deleterious effect on GK today.
No one is trying to deny any truth, there are two debates: 1) is the 2k1/2k2 timeine broken - something as Zen says, appears unlikely.
2) if it is, is it better to fix the break by saying the past was different, or saying the present is different. If condition 1 is true - I still contend that if you are to break one of the two history lines, the old one that has little to do with current events is the best to break. In the case of condition 2, the only real 'truth' is that there is a fracture in the history lines, and covering up either side amounts to going against 'the truth' so why break the truth in a fashion that hurts GK the most?

I am being perfectly clear, you are just loosing it Zurk.

LordZen
01-15-2005, 07:53 AM
Some humans do have babies every year, consecutively for a while. lol

But here, how about this, Nappa, because the new Zormite colony was primarily set up because it was viewed as a strategic nessesity, most of the original colonizers were trained soldiers, males. And the few females that came along did not much like the idea of whoring themselves. Wow, that was hard.

I dont dislike it, It could work but there are still flaws in it.
You claimed I had made changes in the story which changed your opinion about it. I asked you what they were.

Zurkiba
01-15-2005, 05:16 PM
You are really loosing it Zurk, meltdown much?

I have been very consistent. You feel that since you feel there is a discrepency between 2k1 and 2k2, all of 2k2's history should be scratched to hold true to the 'truth' that was 2k1. I argue, to do that, you have to ignore the 'truth' of all of 2k2's history, and that doing that would have a deleterious effect on GK today.
No one is trying to deny any truth, there are two debates: 1) is the 2k1/2k2 timeine broken - something as Zen says, appears unlikely.
2) if it is, is it better to fix the break by saying the past was different, or saying the present is different. If condition 1 is true - I still contend that if you are to break one of the two history lines, the old one that has little to do with current events is the best to break. In the case of condition 2, the only real 'truth' is that there is a fracture in the history lines, and covering up either side amounts to going against 'the truth' so why break the truth in a fashion that hurts GK the most?

I am being perfectly clear, you are just loosing it Zurk.
-_-

No you havn't. First you're blabbing that you cant just erase history. But now you're saying we should. And I've already stated that the 2k2 history could just be rewrote to feature them as fishes. Why? Because they were there first and they hold a better story. If you had two books to choose to read. One was just ill-crap and the other was the most magnifigant masterpeice on the world, which one would you read?

Then you just tripped over yourself there. "I would be supporting you if they started off as fishes", according to Zen's story (which you believe in) that is true.

YOU are the one who is non-consistent.

If you would actually READ THE DAMN POSTS you would understand why 2k2 history is flawed.

Obviously there is still a break in the timeline, there are still many questions that need answers.

If you change 2k1 history then you are changing the only roleplaying history on Graal. And that is a sad truth.

Zen, you still never answered my question about why you're so determined to make the Zormites all human fascist.

None the less I will answer yours:
The story you gave me was
-Zormite Dudes at start
-Human Zen comes into power and makes Archigos Party
-Zormite genocide happens

Even then there were questions that needed to be answered. My opinion only changed afterwards when I actually thought about it.

Nappa
01-15-2005, 09:02 PM
Some humans do have babies every year, consecutively for a while. lol

Maybe in ethiopia, but Zormite Empirei isn't ethiopia.

But here, how about this, Nappa, because the new Zormite colony was primarily set up because it was viewed as a strategic nessesity, most of the original colonizers were trained soldiers, males. And the few females that came along did not much like the idea of whoring themselves. Wow, that was hard.

So basically your saying this is not a colony or a kingdom like you originally said, but now your changing it into a military base. Which one is it ?

busyrobot
01-16-2005, 12:38 PM
-_-

No you havn't. First you're blabbing that you cant just erase history. But now you're saying we should. And I've already stated that the 2k2 history could just be rewrote to feature them as fishes. Why? Because they were there first and they hold a better story. If you had two books to choose to read. One was just ill-crap and the other was the most magnifigant masterpeice on the world, which one would you read?

I said you can't erase history, you said 2k1's history has been erased already, so I argued if you had to have one or the other flawed, its better to have the old stuff flawed as its not relevant to modern GK.

As for 'just' rewriting the history of GK - I already said that would break it and it would not make sense. I know you don't care (do you even play now at all?) but it matters to me.

As for books, I don't care about reading books about graal, I care about playing in graal, and having it make sense...in the game that exists now.

Then you just tripped over yourself there. "I would be supporting you if they started off as fishes", according to Zen's story (which you believe in) that is true.

Not so fast Matlock :rolleyes:

First you said they were only humans on GK, because they started on GK as humans. You had the bad info, and I clearly was saying, that if the roles were reversed and we had fish people now and humans on 2k1, I'd be arguing that zormite should be allowed to stay fish people.

But good try, all the same.


YOU are the one who is non-consistent.

right

If you would actually READ THE DAMN POSTS you would understand why 2k2 history is flawed.

Because you want it to be, so you can argue we should have fish-zormite people. I understand fully.

Obviously there is still a break in the timeline, there are still many questions that need answers.

The break in the timeline is the fact they were fish, and are now human, but I think Zen has done a good job of educating us both on that. It would surely mess the timeline up more if you did it your way and messed up GK.

There are many questions that could be answered, but need answers? All the big questions have been answered quite reasonably I'd say...

If you change 2k1 history then you are changing the only roleplaying history on Graal. And that is a sad truth.

If you feel that way, try to help revive RPing on GK then, don't just try to break GK.

GoZelda
01-16-2005, 12:50 PM
Wow, even if I was a crappy moderator I would have realised this thread could just aswell be closed because neither of the sides are gonna admit they're wrong.

Lance
01-16-2005, 12:57 PM
I honestly attempted to split this thread (modship was just fixed today). There were, however, 14 pages of too many topics to consider splitting it into anything but a 'General Kingdoms Discussion' thread.

I will, however, send this thread over to the Graal Kingdoms Kingdoms forum and rename it to that General Discussion title.

Discussion can continue, but let's try to keep it productive.

GryffonDurime
01-16-2005, 10:23 PM
Zormites don't have to be changed to fish retroactivly.

There are other ways.

(Holy fajita, when did I hit 1,000 posts?)

Nappa
01-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Thank god one mod who actually knows what he is doing.

GoZelda
01-16-2005, 10:43 PM
It seems like that helped, the thread has cooled down.

ZanderX
01-16-2005, 11:17 PM
Thank god one mod who actually knows what he is doing.

Oh, that hurts. :(

GryffonDurime
01-16-2005, 11:32 PM
Oh, that hurts. :(


Two mods:3

Smiting the flame of Ana is a worthy quest too.

Nappa
01-17-2005, 12:24 AM
I tried to get you to help me on the forums, and what do I get ?

IMS ABOUT THE YELLOW POWER RANGER DIEING.

busyrobot
01-17-2005, 12:25 AM
Two mods:3

Oh, that hurts. :(

Zormites don't have to be changed to fish retroactivly.

There are other ways.


Then adding new 'old race' zormites to zormite would be considered a new RP development option for them, and implemented at Zormite's discression. I have nothing against that idea though. However, to date Zurk has specifically talked about changing GK's history for retroactive alterations.

When it comes to progressive changes, I am happy with anything that is good RP wise and is endorsed by the Kingdom that would implement it.



And thanks Lance for moving it - that was a very good idea. :)

Splke
01-20-2005, 04:36 PM
My eyeballs hurt now. Thanks, jerks.

LordZen
01-20-2005, 05:52 PM
Ah, heh, I thought this thread was deleted. I was irritated for a while but got over it because I was glad I remembered to save my one long post to my Zormite folder.
Maybe in ethiopia, but Zormite Empirei isn't ethiopia.
Lol, I meant that only jokingly. But it only takes 9 months to birth a child, so I was just saying there are some people that pop 'em out one after another. Not that its largescale, but just thats its easily possible.

So basically your saying this is not a colony or a kingdom like you originally said, but now your changing it into a military base. Which one is it ?
In the presented story the purpose of the colony was not to rebuild. It was not a nessisary move for the Zormite people. As it was plainly stated, they arranged for a colony in the new world strictly because they saw it as a strategic advantage.