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Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-11-2004, 08:19 AM
There's 5 kingdoms on Graal Kingdoms.
Nothing is being done.
All the fun is being promoted into leveling, PKing, making friends, sharing items, trading items, giving items, partying up, having events for items.....
Dustari, KJ, and Zormite are all allied. Pirates are kind of lone and just as inactive. Forest has an excuse- Chris isn't even claiming that the kingdom is being active, he's saying it's under development and that he's having problems and lack of support for his development (I think).

Do you not all see what's missing?
Where are the international diplomatic matters?
Where are the wars?
Where are the skrimishes?
Where are the battles?
Where are the ship raids?
Where are the signing of treaties?
Where are the breaking of treaties?
Where are the retaliations for breakings of treaties?
Where are the personal attacks against high officials in kingdoms?
Where are the world tyrants?
Where are the campaigns to take over the world?
Where are the bannings of trades?
Where are the gifts of monuments from one nation to another?
Where are the destructions of these gifts?
Where are the secret groups infesting a nation and staging a coup d'état in their kingdom?

Someone please do something. Right now kingdoms are not kingdoms, accept it. Yet, they're also not PKing guilds like on classic servers- because allowing that means admitting to not being a kingdom anymore. They're just a club of friends who have to be honorable- no random PKing, no scamming, no harassment, no random profanity... etc.

I'm not blaming anyone. These kind of things don't require everyone to wage war on eachother or anything. But if noone's doing anything, SOMEONE has to do something. Things have kind of just settled too much over time. That's all I'm saying. Don't take this to be a flame. This is a post of concern. GK is just so boring when all there is to do is level up, collect items, etc... try to be a power-player basically + other random stuff. The other random stuff for entertainment (collect a bunch of items that aren't really needed for power-playing... do the other "jobs" in the game) is getting old really fast. The game's development encouraged power-playing. Adressing that point though is for another thread in another forum. If power-playing is encouraged with the game's development, kingdoms can still have RPing and the expected kingdom fun.

If any of the stuff I listed is going on, please show me where it's been in the daily screenshots and explain to me why noone's posting about it on these forums.

Edit: And if none of you can get to an organized state, just have power-playing wars, why don't you? It'll be a start at least -.-... at least SOMETHING will be going on. Some people will be able to RP off of the power-playing wars...

KyJe27
04-11-2004, 08:33 AM
Preach it brother!

ditto, ditto, and DITTO!

I say one kingdom should take the initaive to get things rolling again. One kingdom has to stand out and take the bull by the horns! Please if not for yourseleves, for the rest of us.

Satrek2000
04-11-2004, 09:53 AM
I have to agree to a certain extend, some progressive diplomacy is needed. People have to realize that they can be enemies with their friends, ooc. The main problem with wars though, is the timing - there have been a few in the time I was active, but in another timezone, i.e. I woke up to hear there was a war, never seen a single arrow/bullet/cannonball fly.

Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec
Where are the secret groups infesting a nation and staging a coup d'état in their kingdom?

The answer is simple - they are secret ;)

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-11-2004, 04:17 PM
Humm, i agree there should be more international activity, such as diplomatic scuffles and such, but wars? What the hell is even the point, ziro. There aren't many powerplayers within kingdoms, (and then there are a few that join or become suddenly active again just because there's a war) but those who are there just make wars so so so pointless.

Think about it, you're a lvl15 with a nice blessed bow or sword...you've never been in a war before, and you're really excited as you wait on the boat to attack the enemy.
You press the "leave" button of the boat, and are instantly killed by either A) 25 icestorms that're being spammed about. B) A guy with a Warhammer or something prepped to hell, that even if you did manage to get close to him you wouldn't be able to hit due to his leeto +10 helm, armour, shield, boots, gauntlets and gloves.
Ograet, you had a lot of fun being killed in seconds in that war...lets have another one so you can die all over again! :)

Satrek2000
04-11-2004, 04:28 PM
I think this is where forts would come in - pre-designed forts, made to resist a siege; guard towers that players can mount to fire weapons from - either a mounted cannon or their own bow; maybe a magic protection system that requires mages to fill it using bullets or something, to denote mana to strengthen the forts; ...
Also needed, in my opinion, would be proper planning of the war by both participating kingdoms, and a system where forts can only be taken or manned if a leader opens them.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-11-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Satrek2000
I think this is where forts would come in - pre-designed forts, made to resist a siege; guard towers that players can mount to fire weapons from - either a mounted cannon or their own bow; maybe a magic protection system that requires mages to fill it using bullets or something, to denote mana to strengthen the forts; ...
Also needed, in my opinion, would be proper planning of the war by both participating kingdoms, and a system where forts can only be taken or manned if a leader opens them.

Yeah, we gotta campaign for this stuff before we can campaign for more kingdom interaction O_O

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-11-2004, 07:00 PM
Wars do NOT take place in one day. A REAL war would take place over the course of a good amount of time... at LEAST a few days. A war consists of battles, and a battle can take place in one night- yes. However, the war can be made up other things also. You can have events that are related to the war. Ceremonies...etc. Even the low-leveled players who would die instantly in a power-playing battle could take part in some of these events. Also, it doesn't all have to be based on levels/stats. Boat fights are fair for everyone.

ZanderX
04-11-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Monkeyboy_McGee
Think about it, you're a lvl15 with a nice blessed bow or sword...you've never been in a war before, and you're really excited as you wait on the boat to attack the enemy.
You press the "leave" button of the boat, and are instantly killed by either A) 25 icestorms that're being spammed about. B) A guy with a Warhammer or something prepped to hell, that even if you did manage to get close to him you wouldn't be able to hit due to his leeto +10 helm, armour, shield, boots, gauntlets and gloves.
Ograet, you had a lot of fun being killed in seconds in that war...lets have another one so you can die all over again! :)

Sad to say, that's war. If you don't like it you shouldn't be fighting. :)

--Chris--
04-11-2004, 09:56 PM
<3

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-11-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by ZanderX


Sad to say, that's war. If you don't like it you shouldn't be fighting. :)

Dewd, noway, that's not war, that's just PKing on a larger and more concentrated scale. Ever see a barbarian with a big hammer stop a sword with his skin?

And yeah i agree ziro..wars shouldnt just be based on one little scuffle between powerplayers. And boat wars are way fun, its a pity the boats suck and are laggy and stuff.

Here's a fort-fighting system i wrote up a while ago, i think it'd be nice as part of a war
http://forums.graal2001.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51001

Edit: Also, heh, that's quite a nice bow chris...isn't it in the wrong thread though? lol o_o

Satrek2000
04-12-2004, 01:06 PM
Wars should last longer than a few house, yet the recent ones didn't. Maybe the leaders should plan something, with battles in every timezone...

Also, in real war you're dead when you die, you don't respawn somewhere where someone might already be waiting to pk you into fine slices.

Myomoto
04-12-2004, 02:51 PM
I think one of the reasons we havn't got any wars is because of the fighting system, on g2k1 you didn't had to ring a bell before you could fight the other kingdom, i think this is one of the reasons, it's too complicated to start a fight... Hmm... i think i have to talk with the members of KJ which kingdom we should try to assault ;O It should be easy to do treaties now with the pen item and such? hmm... Sorry but i'm too low of rank(yet) to affect this anyway ._.

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-12-2004, 09:03 PM
In order to make a war work, ALL KINGS have to be on friendly terms OOCly, but be on agressive terms IC. People need to tell apart IC and OOC relations. Or for other peoplem- they need to start RPing to CREATE an IC personality.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-12-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec
In order to make a war work, ALL KINGS have to be on friendly terms OOCly, but be on agressive terms IC. People need to tell apart IC and OOC relations. Or for other peoplem- they need to start RPing to CREATE an IC personality.

Yeah i suppose there really isnt enough IC/OOC separation, most people just RP spontaneously and stuff x_x

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-12-2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Monkeyboy_McGee


Yeah i suppose there really isnt enough IC/OOC separation, most people just RP spontaneously and stuff x_x

Yeah, it scares me when I see people calling eachother "Mama" or "Daddy" and then the next second they say things like "wut lvl r u"... x.x It's like if I were to call a male friend of mine "Daddy" IRL.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-12-2004, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec


Yeah, it scares me when I see people calling eachother "Mama" or "Daddy" and then the next second they say things like "wut lvl r u"... x.x It's like if I were to call a male friend of mine "Daddy" IRL.

well you might easily call your friend that irl...if you lived in west side story :rolleyes:

ZER0_H0UR
04-15-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec

Do you not all see what's missing?
Where are the international diplomatic matters?
Where are the wars?
Where are the skrimishes?
Where are the battles?
Where are the ship raids?
Where are the signing of treaties?
Where are the breaking of treaties?
Where are the retaliations for breakings of treaties?
Where are the personal attacks against high officials in kingdoms?
Where are the world tyrants?
Where are the campaigns to take over the world?
Where are the bannings of trades?
Where are the gifts of monuments from one nation to another?
Where are the destructions of these gifts?
Where are the secret groups infesting a nation and staging a coup d'état in their kingdom?


This happens in time; Allies are made, Allies are lost... but this can't all happen in a short time.

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-15-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by ZER0_H0UR



This happens in time; Allies are made, Allies are lost... but this can't all happen in a short time.

It's been several months, maybe at least half a year since there's been any enemies. Nothing's been going on right now. Maybe you want a whole year to go by with nothing happening?

thelostviking
04-16-2004, 05:12 PM
1) castle need to be destroyable and need to be built like fortifications.
2) the king should be able to be kicked by his nation
3) many more stuffs

With point 2) kings would be forced to really do something or get kicked by their crowd.

Satrek2000
04-16-2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by thelostviking
1) castle need to be destroyable and need to be built like fortifications.

Leave castles alone, they are the center of a kingdom, and it's kinda beside the point to have them destroyable. Put under siege, yes, conquered, maybe, but not destroyed.

Originally posted by thelostviking
3) many more stuffs

Now that's a suggestion that we were all waiting for :rolleyes:

Originally posted by thelostviking
With point 2) kings would be forced to really do something or get kicked by their crowd.

No, it would force them to make their people happy, and maybe bribe them ("gimme some golden keys or I'll vote you out"). It would make them vulnerable and not really help anyone. If a leader needs to be replaced (or a part of the citizens think so), it can be brought to the forum and chewed through - whether that will help things or not, a system-wise solution would only provide another risk.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-17-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Satrek2000


Leave castles alone, they are the center of a kingdom, and it's kinda beside the point to have them destroyable. Put under siege, yes, conquered, maybe, but not destroyed.



Now that's a suggestion that we were all waiting for :rolleyes:



No, it would force them to make their people happy, and maybe bribe them ("gimme some golden keys or I'll vote you out"). It would make them vulnerable and not really help anyone. If a leader needs to be replaced (or a part of the citizens think so), it can be brought to the forum and chewed through - whether that will help things or not, a system-wise solution would only provide another risk.

Yeah, plus if a kingdom became inactive and only had like three members left, those two members could easily just kick the king, take over, and screw things up further o_o
Or, if someone doesn't like the king, he can tell all his nasty friends to join the kingdom until they outvote others, and remove the king! =x

GoZelda
04-17-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec
Do you not all see what's missing?
Where are the international diplomatic matters?

If kingdom had their own unique mineral you could only get there, you'd get them.

Originally posted by Ziro_Vitrudestec
Do you not all see what's missing?
Where are the international diplomatic matters?
Where are the wars?
Where are the skrimishes?

They would be there if kingdoms had a reason to attack eachother except for thingy PKed thangy.


Where are the battles?
Where are the ship raids?

The above points, and make me CP Gov and you'll get the raids in an organised way (telling the kingdom OOCly (so you can't get allies, because IC you are surprises) a day in advance).


Where are the personal attacks against high officials in kingdoms?

When Padren gets on b-mode so he can be PKed.


Where are the world tyrants?

Hiding out with Elvis Presley, George Harrison, John Lennon and Diana.


Where are the campaigns to take over the world?

In the heads of the aspirant world-tyrants.


Where are the bannings of trades?

When kingdoms get unique resources.


Where are the gifts of monuments from one nation to another?

When Stefan makes them :rolleyes:


Where are the destructions of these gifts?

When Stefan adds them, and makes them destroyable.


Where are the secret groups infesting a nation and staging a coup d'état in their kingdom?

There are.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-17-2004, 09:17 PM
Lol yay, cyrin's back!
Heh, minerals that only one kingdom can get would be awesome

Oh and, that Kerith guy's being made governor once people realise that Markb's just, y'know, left, and remove him and his spare governor account from pirates. Lalalaa

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-17-2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by GoZelda

If kingdom had their own unique mineral you could only get there, you'd get them.


They would be there if kingdoms had a reason to attack eachother except for thingy PKed thangy.


The above points, and make me CP Gov and you'll get the raids in an organised way (telling the kingdom OOCly (so you can't get allies, because IC you are surprises) a day in advance).

[/B]
When Padren gets on b-mode so he can be PKed.

[/B]
Hiding out with Elvis Presley, George Harrison, John Lennon and Diana.

[/B]
In the heads of the aspirant world-tyrants.

[/B]
When kingdoms get unique resources.

[/B]
When Stefan makes them :rolleyes:

[/B]
When Stefan adds them, and makes them destroyable.

[/B]
There are. [/B]

Those are all good responses, but it just seems like attempts to justify the lack of activity going on with kingdoms by blaming it all on the lack of development from the administrators. I'm sure you would like activity among the kingdoms again as I would. It's not hard to make use of what the game already has and what is being added on to itr every day (which BTW, on a first glance, usually has NOTHING TO do with RPing, but has to be made use of nontheless in SOME way...). If this is the excuse and noone is capable of making use of the resources... take MarkB away from pirates and make me Governor again :cool: - I have common sense and know how to do things (yes, it's all really that simple IMO. Many of the stuff that takes weeks to do for these people could just be done quickly. MarkB was trying to restore ranks and it was taking him weeks or over a month, and I still don't think it was ever done, or at least not the ranks he SAID. I, on the other hand know it only takes a few minutes except for the fact of rights and making sure noone has power to overthrow their Governor unless they have a high enough rank, but ranks can be made without rights or with few rights in the mean time).

busyrobot
04-18-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by GoZelda

When Padren gets on b-mode so he can be PKed.



Been on b-mode for months :rolleyes:


back to the topic:

People want wars, but no one wants the PK wars that are all that GK has to offer, at this time.

Let me tell you about the last battle we had, it was an rped battle, pirates had attacked KJ, in some form of raid, the allies went to CP - not to level the place - but to have a small boat war, retaliate for the attack, perhaps find the pirates responsible and hunt them down in classic navy vs. pirates type of battle.

No attempts to pwn another kingdom or whatnot, we PMed ahead of time to make sure they knew what we were up to and not to worry like if we won we'd try to take them over or anything dumb like that.


First, we are trying to get the ships ready, stocked up below deck. Half the ships, if you go below deck, have no furnature. You reconnect, but its still gone. So you have to unstick - back to main. That's a fun delay.

Then we try to make new ships by the Torub shipdock. Course, that one is still broken, won't work, so we have to go up to Borea.

We drag the cannonballs and everyone's supplies up to Borea, and start making the needed ships. We make one ship, and with lots of yelling, stop a newer member from completing the second ship before the first was moved, or the war effort would have been lost due to two ships stuck together.

We sail for the Crecent Isles, and find the pirates are still there in large numbers, though not manning any ships. We first stop at the north island and scout about for signs of pirate activity. This has taken, maybe 2 hours or so, and a number of people have had to leave, and a number of people have come online and are toguilding about the war and are trying to make boats to catch up.

I take a boat from the north isle towards the main CP island, but when I go below for a moment, I am warped into the blue water area to the right of the main ship hold, and have to unstick to Main.
I am making my way back, between trying to travel and organize via toguilds, and it turns out most of the pirates are just in the castle and don't want to fight at all.

They step out, ice storm and step in to use 'blipping' (warp out hit warp in) to try to weaken the siege.

I arrive and people have come out, and we discuss whether the guilty pirates we have been hunting are in the parties we have found.
We state our terms that piracy in general waters are not the business of our kingdoms', but that attacks on the soil of our allies will result in further raids.

Mark logs in and appears for the first time since the original attack on KJ, and assures his people that war is not desired and we agree our goal has been accomplished and we did not intend to try to wage a full scale war.

As our forces have left, and I am leaving as well, bosh gets the idea to repeat pk me while I have 0 hp at a dock as I am making my way off CP. I end up able to use some healing potions and get warped into the wall area of the next ship I enter, and end up unsticking to main.

We still all had fun, but its a heck of a lot of working around the bugs and its rather frustrating.

What are the main problems:

1) reluctant foe: There are two sides in a war (at least) and the weaker side can sit in a castle. There is no requirement to fight. This is not entirely bad because you don't want to allow a kingdom of lvl 80 Pkers totally harrass another kingdom that focuses on RPing over leveling into the dirt.

Basically: Both sides have to think they can win, or there is no war, its invalidated before it happens by the weaker side. 'Not enough time', 'you got here when we have barely anyone online', or 'you guys are respawning' (may or may not need to be true), etc etc.

2) The lame points: If you fight in a war in a game, it better be for fun.
* Ship bugs are not fun.
* Laming Auras are really really lame.
* Peaceful people getting in the way are lame. Especially when they stand around and mouth off out of character.
* repeat kills at docks on 0 hp people are lame
* anyone on a horse is lame
* respawners are lame
* A single player fighting off 50 people because he is 50 levels higher - is lame. 50 Archers should be able to bring down anyone less strong than a God.

The worst thing about that last point is that one super high level player, while is great to have on your side, completely kills capacity for 'mystery of outcome'. You can be rather sure what will happen - maybe not totally certian - before the war starts.



What we need, is to bring strategy into the game. If we had it setup where the more people attack one player at once, the worse that player's ac was handicapped. (think of it as fighting in a duel with 1 on 1 vs 1 on 5, would you have more trouble parrying and blocking 5 swords? You bet)
A very short lived AC penalty would be a good thing.

2) AC is a factor very secondary to speed. the speeds we have now, ranging from .5 up to 5, should be changed, in my opinion.

If it was condensed so that if you have .5 speed, that is similar to 1.0 speed, and if you have 5 speed, that is similar to a 3 speed, then you may have a chance of hitting your opponent.

Right now, you can rush an archer and hit him, and run back, and get out of range before he can hit you.

Large area spells should be reserved for high level magic. Laming aura is called 'flaming aura' not 'torch an entire island in less than 30 seconds'.
If player speeds are reduced, some area spells should have their areas reduced as well.



These ideas are not just to reduce the annoyance of being killed a certain way, but to changes like these will place more importance on group attacks. Help Roman style discipline in an army win over the barbarian hordes.

In short:

Kingdom wars should be decided as much by the instincts and preparations of the commanders as the strength as the soldiers at the front lines.

It should be based on how well a kingdom's army works as a team to win a battle.

Who would watch football if your team needed to break the quarterback's ac to tackle him and no one on the team could?

Ziro_Vitrudestec
04-18-2004, 09:51 AM
Padren, we all know the problems of the game mechanics. We also know that it shouldn't be the reason for no kingdom activity. We know these things can be worked around. When I was Governor of CP, I wanted to have a CP war with Dustari (being on friendly terms with you OOC, but wanting to create a nice big story between us IC involving an agressive relationship). We came up with many ideas. And in this ideas,it was obvious that the point is to be on friendly OOC terms to create our own rules so that we could have good wars instead of stuff based on powerplaying (but then I was just removed anyways, and I never saw anyone play out my ideas which may not have been the best, but ARE better than doing NOTHING). Nontheless, as I said, a war of powerplaying battles would even be better than what's going on now. An unorganized war would at least bring interest as long as it's not just a one-night battle where no one remains enemies.

Padren, please don't let your post be a response/answer to my argument. If it is, it can be simplified as such: You won't be doing anything for a long time...if ever. It's saying that the game systems and mechanics have to be fixed/changed A WHOLE LOT for anything to happen (though you shouldn't wait for that...). And we know that won't happen any time soon... Things [b]can[b/] happen under the current circumstances....

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-18-2004, 03:01 PM
Ho hum, game mechanics, lalala. They suck, and thats all that needs to be said. The cogs and bolts and wheels and turbines and shafts, they were all made from that crappy tinned spaghetti you get in the awful tomato sauce. And when they all failed and broke, we didn't replace them with something better, we just stuck them back together with some, uh...more spaghetti o_o

Suffice to say, the mechanics don't work...they're a ***************ing liability, in fact. We have to either ignore them and find our own ways, or get them fixed. We all know they will not be fixed.

I reckon if you want fights now, you're going to have to RP them. As in, typing your actions and then probably moving your character as much as he can to correspond with those actions, then the other guy responds with a block and his own attack, etc.
Problem with this is that not many people like this kinda fighting, and it requires a LOT of rp skill to do properly. For example, you could do some attack and claim that there is no way of blocking it, ever, or say that you are invincible, which is just stupid. Then you could just block every attack thrown at you no matter how ludicrous your movement was, which is again stupid; you have to get hit once in a while, but it takes a good RPer to know when to get hit o_o
and then there's the fact it takes ages which people dont like, and you often have arguments about whether an attack was valid, and such.

If we could change the system somehow, then i like the thing that was suggested a while ago, whereby there's a kingdom mode and once you enter it, your level, your stats, your hp, grace, mp, and resistances are all lowered temporarily to a set level (possibly depending on your rank within the kingdom - higher rank means stronger). Also, you automatically equip a set amount of armour, and this is the same as what everyone else in your kingdom has. That way, you'd get a whole kingdom wearing their own suit of armour, and they'd all be roughly as strong as each other, and the same could be said for the other kingdom.
If everyone's just about equal, then things HAVE to depend on strategy and numbers, rather than "who spends the most time buying brutals and EAs"

GoZelda
04-18-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Monkeyboy_McGee
then things HAVE to depend on strategy and numbers, rather than "who spends the most time buying brutals and EAs"
And ofcourse it depends on whether or not everyone in your kingdom is prince, and you are the only king.

Monkeyboy_McGee
04-18-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by GoZelda

And ofcourse it depends on whether or not everyone in your kingdom is prince, and you are the only king.

The thought had occured, but the solution is simple - if a kingdom is stupid enough to put everyone at a high rank just to win this battle then:
A)Their leader -really- sucks a fat one, and should be replaced asap.
B)The kingdom will be screwed once the war is over.
C)The other kingdom can just say "no thanks, we don't have wars with *****s who can't do things properly".

protagonist
05-02-2004, 01:19 AM
On kingdom islands, stats such as AC should be decreased based on level. The higher level, the more decreased. Same goes with all things, but it should be done in such a way so the high levels aren't nerfed to the point of uselessness. Nobody Pks on kingdom islands anyway.

Ziro_Vitrudestec
05-02-2004, 02:00 AM
On kingdom islands, stats such as AC should be decreased based on level. The higher level, the more decreased. Same goes with all things, but it should be done in such a way so the high levels aren't nerfed to the point of uselessness. Nobody Pks on kingdom islands anyway.

PKers PK where there's people to be PKed. It's that simple. The easiest place simply happens to be Bomboria since that's where everyone is.

This is all getting off topic anyways. My point was that things can happen with the current systems. Game mechanics do not prevent leaders from causing RP activity. And I mean on-going activity. Not a simple RP event that starts and ends.

protagonist
05-04-2004, 05:03 AM
PKers PK where there's people to be PKed. It's that simple. The easiest place simply happens to be Bomboria since that's where everyone is.

This is all getting off topic anyways. My point was that things can happen with the current systems. Game mechanics do not prevent leaders from causing RP activity. And I mean on-going activity. Not a simple RP event that starts and ends.


*Goes to RP war with kingdoms*

Guy: "Ok I'm stabbing you and you die"
Me: "What?? I didn't even have a chance!"
Guy: *PK*