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Discharge
06-20-2003, 09:56 PM
I. Fealty: A legacy from long-lost knights, Fealty described the relationship between a feudal lord and his knights. The Knights swore to protect the land and his lord in exchange for protection, support and property. When monarchies were established, the knight swore fealty to the king. In the 11th century, knighthood became a holy duty and knights were called to pledge fealty to the church. Fealty involves obeying commands from a law-abiding good patron, protecting and guarding him and his ideals, even sacrificing his life for the cause. A Paladin must pledge fealty to something. As a minimum, he can pledge fealty to a good church or philosophic movement or organization. It is this pledge that gives the Paladin his power. He can then pledge fealty to a lawful and good government (if one exists) or organization . He can't pledge fealty both to a church and philosophy and he can't pledge fealty to the government alone. Typical fealty obligations involve obeying the patron's edicts, promote the patron's ideals and guarding the patron and his ideas with one's life. Fealty is intertwined with other elements of the Paladin Code, Faith and Honor.

II. Courtesy: Courtesy involves more than following rules of etiquette. A Paladin is polite to everyone, maintains self-control, considers the feelings of others and take care not to offend them, speaks with kindness, behaves with dignity at all times and respects friends and foes alike. A Paladin though should not be lost in the typical forms of etiquette. He need not concern himself with trivial matters such as "which is the right hand to use the knife with". Nor will he keep his silence, when the truth must be spoken, to avoid offending someone. A Paladin will do his best to be polite when addressing anyone but he has to be true to his word and not fall into the "False talk" trap of etiquette. Courtesy involves calls of judgment and is developed through constant exercise. Novice Paladins usually have a hard time balancing Courtesy with another element of the Paladin Code, Honesty.

III. Honor: Honor involves behaving in a morally sound manner even when the Paladin is by himself. Honor involves respect for anyone who shares the Paladin's ideals of goodness and justice. The Paladin shows mercy and refuses to inflict undue suffering even to his worst enemies. A Paladin acknowledges the dignity of all law-abiding good people, regardless of race, by treating them with respect. A Paladin dies before compromising his principles, betraying his patron, renouncing his faith or abandoning his duty. Honor is a matter of being true to one's self. Honor couples with Honesty and Fealty, two other elements of the Paladin Code.

IV. Honesty: While Honor is a matter of being true to one's self, Honesty is defined as "being true to others". A Paladin always tells the truth, as he knows it. He may choose to remain silent or withhold information but he will never intentionally misguide anyone, even his enemies. Speaking the Truth is tricky, as it may violate another element of the Paladin Code, Courtesy. The Paladin, if he chooses to speak, will tell nothing but the truth. Usually the answers have to be carefully spoken, since bluntly speaking the truth will violate the Courtesy element. A Paladin will not make promises lightly but once he gives his word, he will always keep it. Honesty balances with Courtesy and couples with Honor.

V. Valor: A Paladin demonstrates unparalleled courage at all times. He will face the greatest dangers to fulfill a promise or a duty. A Paladin will never yield or flee in battle unless he is greatly outnumbered or receives a direct order from a peer. Nevertheless, a Paladin will never retreat if the life of another is at stake or other elements of his Code will be compromised because of his retreat. Valor embraces and supports most elements of the Paladin Code, protecting the whole from compromise and enabling the Paladin to uphold his sacred duty with a true heart.

VI. Humility: A Paladin remains humble in spirit and action. Humility keeps the Paladin's feet on the ground and protects him from the vilest enemy of the Paladin Code, Pride. A Paladin knows what he is, and that is enough for his self-esteem. He will never preach his status or his achievements with arrogance. He never speaks highly of himself. Praises embarrass him and the knowledge of a job well done suffices as thanks. A Paladin's only reward is the happiness of the people, the victory of Light over Darkness and world peace. A Paladin's inner pride flows from the Paladin Code, not from human praises or rewards.

VII. Selflessness: Paladins will not seek excess wealth for themselves, but strive to build home for the homeless, heal the sick and feed the poor. A Paladin will give his food to a hungry child even if that will mean starvation for himself. He will use his excess funds to help all those in need. He will cover his friends retreat even if he has to die. He will sacrifice his life to save another. Selflessness is the desire of the Paladin to become one with his principles.

VIII. Faith: The last but not the least basic element of the Paladin Code is Faith. Faith is as simple as eating. It cannot be acquired by exercise or philosophy reading. It's the ultimate state of the Paladin's mind. Faith makes the Code whole, assembles and connects the other virtues. It can only be described as "believe in yourself". Faith gives life to the other elements. Faith and Fealty give the Paladin his supernatural abilities. Faith in a virtue, faith in a deity, faith in a philosophy, faith in one's abilities, faith in Light, faith in Goodness, Faith in Justice, Faith in Peace, Faith in one's self, the element that transforms the Paladin from a mortal Champion of Goodness to a Divine Warrior of Light.

This is for those of you that wish to become great Paladins in a good role-playing fashion.

GoZelda
06-25-2003, 02:01 PM
Now we only need a dark paladin code >:]

zell12
06-26-2003, 12:10 AM
The is no such a thing. A "dark" Paladin is not really a Paladin anymore, his heart and soul has been consumed by the darkness and has turned evil. Therefore he is no longer a Paladin, but a follower of the darkness. Many reasons will cause this, such things as greed and lust.

DragonX
06-26-2003, 12:23 AM
Ahhh, why do you always have to type so small, it hurts my eyes.

Zurkiba
06-26-2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by zell12
The is no such a thing. A "dark" Paladin is not really a Paladin anymore, his heart and soul has been consumed by the darkness and has turned evil. Therefore he is no longer a Paladin, but a follower of the darkness. Many reasons will cause this, such things as greed and lust.
But the Dark Follower would still call himself a Paladin.

Like in FFX when Seymore says he's doing good for Spira... yet he's killing everyone.

Discharge
06-26-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Zurkiba

But the Dark Follower would still call himself a Paladin.

Like in FFX when Seymore says he's doing good for Spira... yet he's killing everyone.

Well in some stories Paladins who have fallen (Went from good to evil) became known as Death Knights after their deaths. However, there is no such thing as a dark Paladin, that is only something twisted that somebody made up.

To the Dragon, It is perfectly legible and looks more professional in my opinion. You should go here, www.visiondirect.com :)

GoZelda
06-26-2003, 02:02 AM
There was a opposite of Paladin :\
maybe black gaurd, could be it too.

DragonX
06-26-2003, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by Discharge

To the Dragon, It is perfectly legible and looks more professional in my opinion. You should go here, www.visiondirect.com :)

Trying to insult me? My vision is fine but when I read every other thread that has normal size letters and then read one of your threads it is very annoying and causes me not to even read what you type.

Discharge
06-26-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by GoZelda
There was a opposite of Paladin :\
maybe black gaurd, could be it too.

Again, it may be an opposite of what that person believes but there is no such thing as a dark Paladin.

To the Dragon: I don't understand why your having such a hard time reading my font, no one has ever complain and I can read it perfectly fine. Heck im on a 1024X768 Resolution and I can read it just fine. However if it bothers the great blue Dragon, I'll increase the font size. :rolleyes:

zell12
06-30-2003, 06:47 PM
It's funny when I login GK or another server and see people with the nicks unholy paladin or dark paladin or something of the sort. I like to laugh at that.

feivel
06-30-2003, 10:49 PM
Heh unholy paladin. Technically, it is possible. Yes I realise the word Paladin means good and cant be used to describe evil...
and the people arent. They are using it in conjuction with the word Unholy or Dakr or Evil. Which is possible you could be an Unholy Paladin, if you were a paladin, then became Unholy, you are no longer a Paladin, you are an unholy Paladin. Its kinda like how in crayola packs there is a crayon that says green. and then there is one that says green-yellow. Well you can say hey that makes sense cus by definition Green is not yellow, and they arent saying that it is yellow, they are saying it is modified. Now at this point whatever I am saying probably is a redicilious stretch but whatever.

GoZelda
06-30-2003, 11:05 PM
mikethedarkpaladin does his accountname honor for he PKs everyone on sight x.x

Discharge
07-01-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by feivel
Heh unholy paladin. Technically, it is possible. Yes I realise the word Paladin means good and cant be used to describe evil...
and the people arent. They are using it in conjuction with the word Unholy or Dakr or Evil. Which is possible you could be an Unholy Paladin, if you were a paladin, then became Unholy, you are no longer a Paladin, you are an unholy Paladin. Its kinda like how in crayola packs there is a crayon that says green. and then there is one that says green-yellow. Well you can say hey that makes sense cus by definition Green is not yellow, and they arent saying that it is yellow, they are saying it is modified. Now at this point whatever I am saying probably is a redicilious stretch but whatever.


Heh, Ok. :p

Look at it this way, its like saying "I am the Dark Saint" or "I am the Unholy Saint" or "I'm the Evil Saint." Well this goes along with Paladins, your either a Paladin or not. There is no one between. Like your either a saint or not. If a saint goes evil, his no longer a saint period. You guys are saying "Well since he went evil he must be a Dark Saint, his not because he is no longer a saint because saints are not evil." Bottom line is there is no such thing as an evil saint nor is there an evil/dark Paladin.

Now as for "Zormites Paladins," there not. I've seen many of them and if you say Hi to them they attack you and start speaking in internet short hand insult talk towards you. Just because it says Paladin does not mean your a Paladin. Your a Paladin through your actions not because a pretty tag has your name written on it with Paladin.

GoZelda
07-01-2003, 12:48 PM
Who are they? And how dare you insult my kingdom!

Discharge
07-01-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by GoZelda
Who are they? And how dare you insult my kingdom!

Heh, so your saying your kingdom is made of people like this? This was during when Zormite was simply Zormite, I haven't seen any Paladins running around from the Republic so I'm not insulting your kingdom.

GoZelda
07-01-2003, 11:13 PM
Good boy :P

I guess it was Ryu "Infinite" Deacon.

feivel
07-03-2003, 08:57 PM
WHoa whoa whoa. It is very possible to be an evil saint. Just because there are no evil saints doesnt mean it isnt possible. Saint is just a word or title. If I ran an evil church and you were some evil guy the church of evil could easily call you an evil saint.
And you would be one so ha :P

Discharge
07-03-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by feivel
WHoa whoa whoa. It is very possible to be an evil saint. Just because there are no evil saints doesnt mean it isnt possible. Saint is just a word or title. If I ran an evil church and you were some evil guy the church of evil could easily call you an evil saint.
And you would be one so ha :P

Its not only a title, Santa Clause is a saint because he doesn't do anything evil and his not all up in the Catholic church or anything. I have no idea why anybody would start a evil church and titled someone an evil saint because that alone doesn't make any sense. Saint is a good person. How can you be a good person if your a bad person? How can white be black when its white? How can a chicken be a T-Rex when its a chicken? How can a Paladin be an evil Paladin when his a Paladin? How can Feivel be Googi when his Feivel? ;)

thesaiyan
07-03-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Discharge


Its not only a title, Santa Clause is a saint because he doesn't do anything evil and his not all up in the Catholic church or anything. I have no idea why anybody would start a evil church and titled someone an evil saint because that alone doesn't make any sense. Saint is a good person. How can you be a good person if your a bad person? How can white be black when its white? How can a chicken be a T-Rex when its a chicken? How can a Paladin be an evil Paladin when his a Paladin? How can Feivel be Googi when his Feivel? ;)

No.. Santa Clause isn't the one considered a Saint in the Catholic church. Saint Nicholus (sp?) is where the concept of Santa Clause came from. Santa Clause was made up from what St. Nicholus used to do. That whole buy 21348732498 toys for people to make money during Christmas.

Santa = Fake and not a saint.
Nicholus = real and a saint.

GoZelda
07-04-2003, 05:12 PM
St. Nikolaas (as it's written in Dutch and German too, i think) was a Saint from Turky. He did excist, he was a bishop in real. St. Nikolaas came from the Dutch/German to America, (just like Harlem and Brooklyn) , were they formed it to Santa Claus.

feivel
07-10-2003, 04:32 PM
AAAh me be googi?
Ok heres an example. A Policeman...
Policeman are supposed to uphold the law and be noble etc.
But what about the einsfatzgruppen (i know I didnt spell that right) How noble and good were they, huh? got you there!

Satrek2000
07-10-2003, 05:09 PM
The german spelling I know is St. Nikolaus. Also, what's "einsfatzgruppen" supposed to mean? Sounds like a german word I'd roughly translate as strike team or something... how is that supposed to be evil? The problem, in general (and in my opinion), is this: what is evil? If you kill someone to save someone else, is that evil? Yes, if you kill a cop to help a criminal escape. No, if you kill a criminal to save a cop. I think it's never that easy, always requires concidering the circumstances and... well, shades of gray.

Kaimetsu
07-11-2003, 09:22 AM
Of course it's possible to be a Dark Paladin, just as it's possible to have a blue apple. The 'dark' prefix simply overrides the standard 'good' morality of the paladin.

Tseng
07-11-2003, 01:18 PM
The word Paladin can simply mean a strong supporter of a cause. Why can this cause not be a dark one?

Discharge
07-25-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Tseng
The word Paladin can simply mean a strong supporter of a cause. Why can this cause not be a dark one?

Quote: "So, there are many who picture Paladins not as virtuous knights but as other virtuous champions. So, it is more accurate to refer to Paladins as champions of a cause. There is however a significant detail that we must take into account if we are to understand what Paladins really are. Should we define them as champions of a cause, terrorists, murderers or even Hitler may as well be defined as Paladins. Paladins are not mere champions of a cause. They are Holy Champions, Heroes of the Light, Deliverers of Justice, Bringers of Peace. All Paladins follow a Universal Code that shapes and guides their vision of a better world. All Paladins are subject to the Divine Law that "All Life is sacred". A terrorist, who grossly violates this commandment, is not a Paladin. A fanatic of any religion or cause, who usually resorts in the extreme acts of killing and destroying, is not a Paladin. These acts are accounted as Evil and invoke the wrath of the Paladins. The Paladin is a Champion of Light and Goodness (universally defined)."

Originally posted by Kaimetsu
Of course it's possible to be a Dark Paladin, just as it's possible to have a blue apple. The 'dark' prefix simply overrides the standard 'good' morality of the paladin.

If you put it that way then its also possible to be a pink paladin or yellow paladin. However, when referring dark as an evil, then its not possible because once the Paladin commits evil actions he loses his power thus no longer being a Paladin but a fallen.

GoZelda
07-25-2003, 02:42 PM
See it like this: you have a knight. Knights are said to be good. But how many of them killed peasants for fun and looted villages? Thus, a Dark Paladin sort of is the same.

Tseng
07-25-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Discharge


Quote: "So, there are many who picture Paladins not as virtuous knights but as other virtuous champions. So, it is more accurate to refer to Paladins as champions of a cause. There is however a significant detail that we must take into account if we are to understand what Paladins really are. Should we define them as champions of a cause, terrorists, murderers or even Hitler may as well be defined as Paladins. Paladins are not mere champions of a cause. They are Holy Champions, Heroes of the Light, Deliverers of Justice, Bringers of Peace. All Paladins follow a Universal Code that shapes and guides their vision of a better world. All Paladins are subject to the Divine Law that "All Life is sacred". A terrorist, who grossly violates this commandment, is not a Paladin. A fanatic of any religion or cause, who usually resorts in the extreme acts of killing and destroying, is not a Paladin. These acts are accounted as Evil and invoke the wrath of the Paladins. The Paladin is a Champion of Light and Goodness (universally defined)."


You missed the point. The word itself can mean simply "a strong supporter of a cause." That is one of its dictionary definitions. You cannot argue with that point. *sigh*

Discharge
07-26-2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Tseng


You missed the point. The word itself can mean simply "a strong supporter of a cause." That is one of its dictionary definitions. You cannot argue with that point. *sigh*


Miss what point? I got your point. You are telling me why can't a Paladin follow a dark cause as in an evil cause. Here let me edit out the main point of that quote.

"Paladins are not mere champions of a cause. They are Holy Champions, Heroes of the Light, Deliverers of Justice, Bringers of Peace. All Paladins follow a Universal Code that shapes and guides their vision of a better world. All Paladins are subject to the Divine Law that "All Life is sacred.Ē

Now here is another reason. Once a paladin commits an evil act, his powers are forever lost. These powers are that of a Paladin. Without these powers you are just a regular person. So once you decide to be champion of an evil cause or just commit an evil act, you lose your paladin powers forever. How can you be a dark paladin when you don't have the powers of a Paladin? Do you see what Iím saying?

Tseng
07-26-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Discharge



Miss what point? I got your point. You are telling me why can't a Paladin follow a dark cause as in an evil cause. Here let me edit out the main point of that quote.

"Paladins are not mere champions of a cause. They are Holy Champions, Heroes of the Light, Deliverers of Justice, Bringers of Peace. All Paladins follow a Universal Code that shapes and guides their vision of a better world. All Paladins are subject to the Divine Law that "All Life is sacred.Ē

Now here is another reason. Once a paladin commits an evil act, his powers are forever lost. These powers are that of a Paladin. Without these powers you are just a regular person. So once you decide to be champion of an evil cause or just commit an evil act, you lose your paladin powers forever. How can you be a dark paladin when you don't have the powers of a Paladin? Do you see what Iím saying?

Let me make a few statements.

1) You cite someone's interpretation of what a Paladin is.

2) You are attempting to argue fiction against a dictionary definition.

3) If a paladin is merely a strong supporter of a cause (which it can be, according to the dictionary), then a "Dark Paladin" can exist.

Kaimetsu
07-26-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
If you put it that way then its also possible to be a pink paladin or yellow paladin.

Yes, of course it is. So?

However, when referring dark as an evil, then its not possible because once the Paladin commits evil actions he loses his power thus no longer being a Paladin but a fallen.[/COLOR]

You misunderstand. The 'dark' prefix overrides the holiness and traditional powers of the paladin and implies a new set. A dark paladin resembles a paladin in many ways - both are religious warriors, both call on the power of a deity etc. The difference is akin to one of color. The light paladin is good and calls on the power of a good deity, while the dark paladin is evil and draws power from an evil deity. The principles are all the same, the two types just take them in different directions.

Desolator12
07-27-2003, 12:03 AM
call me geeky, but if you look in the Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition Dungeoun Master guide, there IS something called a Blackguard, nicknamed the Anti-Paladin because of their completely evil nature...

PH33R my knowledge of D&D!!! FWAH!

anti-paladin=dark paladin


but Blackguard sounds cooler :D

Kaimetsu
07-27-2003, 07:25 PM
1) D&D is not the definitive source for all things fantasy.
2) Everybody knows about the Blackguard, especially if they've played NWN.

Desolator12
07-27-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu
1) D&D is not the definitive source for all things fantasy.

But it's pretty dang close

Discharge
07-29-2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Tseng


Let me make a few statements.

1) You cite someone's interpretation of what a Paladin is.

2) You are attempting to argue fiction against a dictionary definition.

3) If a paladin is merely a strong supporter of a cause (which it can be, according to the dictionary), then a "Dark Paladin" can exist.

The Paladin class has a universal meaning and that is a holy lawful good warrior in fantasy. I simply quoted that paragraph because it was nicely said. The dictionary cannot apply fully to a fictional world. Were not talking about the Paladins that once existed in real life, we are talking about Paladins in fictional stories. The Paladins that once existed in real life which were any of the 12 peers of Charlemagne's court are different then the Paladins of fictional stories. Charlemagne's Paladins never had holy powers of light. In our fictional games they do and those are the Paladins that we are playing as in Graal Kingdoms because Graal Kingdoms is suppose to be a fantasy role-playing world. If we were role-playing as the Paladins of real medieval times then we could dispute of whether Paladins can be good or evil. Of course no one can stop those that want to twist the Paladin into something that befits their chaotic or evil character... After all, is it not the work of evil to defile good?

The official D&D rulebooks though clearly state that Paladin is Lawful Good. A Black guard is just simply a Black guard but not a ďDark Paladin .ď So yes there is a official opposite of a Paladin but its not the same for its an opposite of that. You cannot be it when your are the opposite of it. Now with Kameitsu (sp?) If we apply what he just said then we can say a Light guard is possible because The 'light' prefix overrides the evilness and traditional Blackguard powers whatever that may be and implies a new set. Then things get crazy an classes are confusing and then jibba jabba semantics. But like I said, we can't stop people from twisting things.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
The dictionary cannot apply fully to a fictional world.

What a ridiculous statement. Are you saying, then, that dictionaries cannot define dragons? Or wizards? Dictionaries can define any words, regardless of their relation to reality.

The official D&D rulebooks though clearly state that Paladin is Lawful Good.

Irrelevant.

1) As already stated, D&D is not the sole arbiter of such matters.
2) We're not arguing over the alignment of Paladins, we're arguing over the existence of Dark Paladins. It could be argued that a simple Paladin is always Lawful Good, yes, but a Dark Paladin is a modified version of that original theme.

So yes there is a official opposite of a Paladin but its not the same for its an opposite of that. You cannot be it when your are the opposite of it.

A Dark Paladin is only opposite to a Paladin in terms of alignment. Everything else is the same. Is a black crayon opposite to a white crayon? Is a black pearl no longer a pearl?

Discharge
07-30-2003, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


What a ridiculous statement. Are you saying, then, that dictionaries cannot define dragons? Or wizards? Dictionaries can define any words, regardless of their relation to reality.



Irrelevant.

1) As already stated, D&D is not the sole arbiter of such matters.
2) We're not arguing over the alignment of Paladins, we're arguing over the existence of Dark Paladins. It could be argued that a simple Paladin is always Lawful Good, yes, but a Dark Paladin is a modified version of that original theme.



A Dark Paladin is only opposite to a Paladin in terms of alignment. Everything else is the same. Is a black crayon opposite to a white crayon? Is a black pearl no longer a pearl?



They can apply for the most part of the definition of a fictional character but not completely. In this case, the dictionary is not going to tell you about how Paladins wield swords of holy flames. Nor will it explain what an Orc is. However it will explain the main points of fictional characters that it would have. So it is not illegitimate to say the dictionary cannot fully apply.

Agreed, however the second paragraph was not intended for you but for the fellow who brought up D&D to the topic, whether or not you think it should be dismiss as a core source for this debate.

What's the opposite of Orange?

Tseng
07-30-2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
They can apply for the most part of the definition of a fictional character but not completely. In this case, the dictionary is not going to tell you about how Paladins wield swords of holy flames. Nor will it explain what an Orc is.

Can one find an Orc in the real world? No.

Can you find a strong supporter of a cause (be it a dark or light one) in the real world? Yes.

Do all Paladins wield swords of holy flames? That is one interpretation of what a Paladin can do. A paladin does not necessarily need to wield a sword of holy flames (even if you believed that all Paladins were good in nature).

However it will explain the main points of fictional characters that it would have. So it is not illegitimate to say the dictionary cannot fully apply.

You say that it will explain the main points, and because it explains the main points it cannot fully apply? I don't follow your logic here.

What's the opposite of Orange?

Though the magic of MS Paint's "Invert Colors" option:

Discharge
07-30-2003, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Tseng


Can one find an Orc in the real world? No.

Can you find a strong supporter of a cause (be it a dark or light one) in the real world? Yes.

Do all Paladins wield swords of holy flames? That is one interpretation of what a Paladin can do. A paladin does not necessarily need to wield a sword of holy flames (even if you believed that all Paladins were good in nature).



You say that it will explain the main points, and because it explains the main points it cannot fully apply? I don't follow your logic here.



Though the magic of MS Paint's "Invert Colors" option:



Can you find a dragon in the real world? Minotaur? They have a definition but they donít exist in the real world. You canít find Orcs in the dictionary and it too does not exist in the real world. As I said previously, the dictionary cannot fully apply to a fictional world for various of reasons. In, addition when it does have a definition for that fictional characters its a basic definition of it.

That depends which Paladin you are speaking about and I am speaking about the Paladins of fictional stories. In those stories they do wield a sword of holy flames.

Did you try grey, not too opposite was it? Not everything has an opposite.

To tell you the truth Tseng, Iím not too clear on what was your last post's point was.

Tseng
07-30-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Discharge

Can you find a dragon in the real world? Minotaur? They have a definition but they donít exist in the real world. You canít find Orcs in the dictionary and it too does not exist in the real world. As I said previously, the dictionary cannot fully apply to a fictional world for various of reasons. In, addition when it does have a definition for that fictional characters its a basic definition of it.

Minotaurs and dragons are mythological creatures which hav been referred to for some thousands of years, whereas orcs are merely contained in fantasy stories in a rather recent timeframe. Should every made-up creature gain its own dictionary definition? I do not think so.

That depends which Paladin you are speaking about and I am speaking about the Paladins of fictional stories. In those stories they do wield a sword of holy flames.

We speak of any paladin at all - remember, we are trying to prove that a Dark Paladin can exist. Now, if you acknowledge that there are other types of paladins than the specific one which you have defined, then you acknowledge also the possibility for a "Dark Paladin" to exist.


Did you try grey?

To tell you the truth Tseng, Iím not too clear on what was your last post's point was.[/COLOR] [/B]

Oh. I inverted the color on the left, and the result was the color on the right. That shade of blue is the opposite of that shade of orange. :)

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 06:37 AM
What's the opposite of Orange?

Orange doesn't have an opposite. Light does. So does dark. Paladins don't have an opposite, but their light alignment does.

What point are you making?

Discharge
07-30-2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Tseng


Minotaurs and dragons are mythological creatures which hav been referred to for some thousands of years, whereas orcs are merely contained in fantasy stories in a rather recent timeframe. Should every made-up creature gain its own dictionary definition? I do not think so.



We speak of any paladin at all - remember, we are trying to prove that a Dark Paladin can exist. Now, if you acknowledge that there are other types of paladins than the specific one which you have defined, then you acknowledge also the possibility for a "Dark Paladin" to exist.



Oh. I inverted the color on the left, and the result was the color on the right. That shade of blue is the opposite of that shade of orange. :)

There you go Tseng, the dictionary cannot fully apply to the fantasy world. It does not always give thorough definition or even a definition on some fictional creatures/persons/things.

Perhaps it was my failure to elucidate that I was speaking of Paladins in fiction, since after all we are playing in a game that supposedly is based on a fictional world. Hence, there is no need for debate on this any longer because I acknowledge it is very possible for a Paladin to be evil in the real world back in middle ages.

Yea I notice that but did you try to invert regular grey? Its not much of an inversion. :)
The point which you could obviously see is that not everything has to have an opposite.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
The point which you could obviously see is that not everything has to have an opposite.

Indeed it does not, but that point is irrelevant. Nobody said that Dark Paladins are the exact opposite of normal Paladins - they are only opposite in one basic aspect.

Discharge
07-30-2003, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Orange doesn't have an opposite. Light does. So does dark. Paladins don't have an opposite, but their light alignment does.

What point are you making?

The point that I was making is clearly oblivious, not everything has an opposite. You may have something that has opposite views of an other, however that does not mean you can slap on a prefix and create a new character. You might as well create light necromancer where the light overwrites the darkness of that character and now you have your very own made up fantasy character. Now do you see where things get odd? This is another thing I just wanted to point out.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
The point that I was making is clearly oblivious, not everything has an opposite.

Read->Think->Post

Before you made that post, I had already stated that a Paladin is not an opposite of a Dark Paladin. Yes, Paladins don't have opposites. Nobody said that they do. However, 'light' has an opposite and that opposite can be used to describe a character similar to a Paladin but with an evil moral system. Like I said, the Dark overrides the default light.

You might as well create light necromancer where the light overwrites the darkness of that character

No, because the entire identity of the necromancer is based around raising the dead. It's not something that can normally apply to light characters. Paladins just hit things with swords and cast spells - such concepts can easily apply to either good or evil intent.

This kind of semantic alteration may lead to some strange definitions, but that doesn't invalidate it. It's just simple manipulation of English.

Discharge
07-30-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Indeed it does not, but that point is irrelevant. Nobody said that Dark Paladins are the exact opposite of normal Paladins - they are only opposite in one basic aspect.


Now we have establish that a ďdark paladinĒ is not necessarily a complete opposite of a Paladin. So now, if not a complete opposite then its something else other then what you wish to create which is a dark paladin. It could be a Death Knight, Blackguard or a Necromancer. These three have opposite views of a Paladin and have unholy powers but however they are not Paladins. They are opposites or antis as we could say of a Paladin but they are not, and let me clearly say this once more to engrave this in all of you; they are not Paladins.


*Edited due to error in pasting*

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
The relevancy of the post is relevant to me

That makes absolutely no sense.

now we have establish that a ďdark paladinĒ is not necessarily a complete opposite of a Paladin.

Actually I established that a long time ago. You're only just catching up.

So now, if not a complete opposite then its something else other then what you wish to create which is a dark paladin.

No, it's a partial opposite. Identical in many respects, but opposite in others. Just like a black pearl is not the opposite of a white pearl, but is still a pearl.

Discharge
07-30-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


Read->Think->Post

Before you made that post, I had already stated that a Paladin is not an opposite of a Dark Paladin. Yes, Paladins don't have opposites. Nobody said that they do. However, 'light' has an opposite and that opposite can be used to describe a character similar to a Paladin but with an evil moral system. Like I said, the Dark overrides the default light.



No, because the entire identity of the necromancer is based around raising the dead. It's not something that can normally apply to light characters. Paladins just hit things with swords and cast spells - such concepts can easily apply to either good or evil intent.

This kind of semantic alteration may lead to some strange definitions, but that doesn't invalidate it. It's just simple manipulation of English.

Kai: Read->Think->Post->Read->Think->Post
Discharge: Read->Think->Post->Read

If you fail to see what I am saying; It is not that Iím not following that so delightful step-by-step posting procedure of yours but while your posting, Iím writing and have not seen what youíve posted. I only see what your currently saying when I post because when you post which you obviously know, the internet explorer window refreshes the thread therefore allowing you to see the most recent post.

Edit: Ah see there we go again.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
If you fail to see what I am saying; It is not that Iím not following that so delightful step-by-step posting procedure of yours but while your posting, Iím writing and have not seen what youíve posted.

I haven't failed to see anything that you've said. You are the one that has consistently misunderstood my points and ignored my arguments. If you do not see what I have posted then it is your own fault. I'm not hiding my words or writing them in some kind of secret code, they're plainly visible to anybody with eyes.

Discharge
07-30-2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


I haven't failed to see anything that you've said. You are the one that has consistently misunderstood my points and ignored my arguments. If you do not see what I have posted then it is your own fault. I'm not hiding my words or writing them in some kind of secret code, they're plainly visible to anybody with eyes.

You not understanding what I'm saying. Here I am writing a post but while I'm writing you've already posted and I didn't catch what you said. So I'm posting something that has already been establish in the previous post which I didn't see.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Discharge
You not understanding what I'm saying. Here I am writing a post but while I'm writing you've already posted and I didn't catch what you said. So I'm posting something that has already been establish in the previous post which I didn't see.

So here's an idea, Mr Genius:

Before posting, check to see if anybody else has posted anything more while you were typing.

Discharge
07-30-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


So here's an idea, Mr Genius:

Before posting, check to see if anybody else has posted anything more while you were typing.

It has already occurred to me. Its not common for me to have little posting arguments where we post right after another. But thanks for your lovely advice Mr. Moderator.

Kaimetsu
07-30-2003, 08:28 AM
Always happy to help.