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ReaperJ
12-31-2002, 12:26 PM
They have disrupted the alliance and have been trying to take over all of graal kingdoms.

the original plan entering the alliance was to rid graal of the corruptness by hiding in the alliance untill powerfull enough to overthrow astri and bring back dashio. however empress has left and dashio is gone for good as i am elected perminent shogun by our people ((however he is welcome to join our ranks again))

Its obvious all astri wants is to take over graal kingdoms. I am free to meet with any kingdom leaders over this subject as well, schedule an appointment with me, im always on

Zurkiba
12-31-2002, 12:59 PM
This allaince started between the Astrians and the Pirates because we had similiar beliefs.

Then we saw that Lyndzey was in help so we made deals with her and we removed Dashio from power. We gave the Samurai independance and we helped them in everything. We accepted the Samurai into a great allaince between two nations.

Now the Samurai have backstabbed us and they have backstabbed the signature of Lyndzey.
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And it is your who is destroying the allaince. You're attacking us because you're "bored" and might I also add in that a new allaince has been formed? :)

ReaperJ
12-31-2002, 01:02 PM
it was lyndzeys plan to go into the alliance simply to regain strenght then take you down, and i fully suppor that plan, we are a peace nation and you have enslaved many kingdoms by force. They have a right to their own decisions, and we are making that a possibility again

Zurkiba
12-31-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by ReaperJ
it was lyndzeys plan to go into the alliance simply to regain strenght then take you down, and i fully suppor that plan, we are a peace nation and you have enslaved many kingdoms by force. They have a right to their own decisions, and we are making that a possibility again
We gave you independance... and we gave you choice.

We just dont allow it when you break our trust or when you declare war on your own ally.

BlKnight
12-31-2002, 01:27 PM
You'd have to be an IDIOT to help Samurai. They've jsut prooven that they will even backstab their own helpers. What makes you think that they won't do the same to you

busyrobot
12-31-2002, 02:11 PM
This only proves that any alliance that is formed where the ink has dried on the parchment and blood is still wet on the swords is a fragile alliance at best.



Give the Astri all they deserve. :D

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
12-31-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Zurkiba
This allaince started between the Astrians and the Pirates because we had similiar beliefs.

Then we saw that Lyndzey was in help so we made deals with her and we removed Dashio from power. We gave the Samurai independance and we helped them in everything. We accepted the Samurai into a great allaince between two nations.

Now the Samurai have backstabbed us and they have backstabbed the signature of Lyndzey.
----------------------------------------------------------
And it is your who is destroying the allaince. You're attacking us because you're "bored" and might I also add in that a new allaince has been formed? :)
It is you who are the ignorant one. Lyndzey and I talked about this with other Dustari members for a long time, and I even let Jourdan go to join Samurai, contrary to the belief that he left because he hated Dustari. You sir, lose this round.

Your time here is ending.

Zurkiba
12-31-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by _0AfTeRsHoCk0_

It is you who are the ignorant one. Lyndzey and I talked about this with other Dustari members for a long time, and I even let Jourdan go to join Samurai, contrary to the belief that he left because he hated Dustari. You sir, lose this round.

Your time here is ending.
Then Jourdan is an tratior in your eyes.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
12-31-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Zurkiba

Then Jourdan is an tratior in your eyes.
Jourdan is not a traitor in my eyes because I let him leave Samurai in order to help solidify the alliance between the Samurai and Dustari. He never backstabbed me, or the kingdom as far as I can recall, and he kept his word

Zurkiba
12-31-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by _0AfTeRsHoCk0_

Jourdan is not a traitor in my eyes because I let him leave Samurai in order to help solidify the alliance between the Samurai and Dustari. He never backstabbed me, or the kingdom as far as I can recall, and he kept his word
You let me go to Zormite and you called me a traitor.

So do not even talk to me anymore as you dont even have your beliefs in order

feivel
12-31-2002, 09:37 PM
I dunno why Dustari is mad at Samurai...
but let me explain..

I was being hunted down by bumbling idiot vikings...
I knew resistance was impossible.
We faked a military coup and made it look like I was backstabbed by Rahz. Lyndzey knew about the plan also so we are not like acussing her of being a viking bastard woman lol. I planned on leading Samurai from the shadows until it was strong enough for me to come back. I got very side tracked with warcraft 3 and school work and decided I wasnt coming back any time soom so I gave Rahz true freedom to do whatever he pleased. He is not backstabbing anyone. Backstabbing would have been if Astri came in and put in tons of funding and only helped Samurai, and then Samurai back stabbed them. No thats not that happened. Astri came in and wrecked everything, and tried to rebuild it in a way that it COULD NOT ever be able to overpower them. I know this because Zurkiba told me this was his plan before he ever "overthrew" me. Samurai is just revolting to regain its freedom and to prove to Astri that they cant control the show and man-handle the Samurai. Samurai can not and will not ever be completely defeated. Because there will always be someone to hide in the shadows and rebuild and then overthrow the evil invaders.

BlKnight
12-31-2002, 09:51 PM
Not backstabing???? Think about it:

-we put in lots of effort into giving the people of Samurai what they wanted (you=out).

-we defended you when you were weak.

-we allowed you to have full control of your kingdom.

-we never asked for a single thing from you.


This is the definition of backstabbing.

busyrobot
12-31-2002, 10:13 PM
Well BlKnight, maybe this will teach you to stop 'liberating' other kingdoms, stay in Astri and knit or something.

So you were double-crossed by the very people you threatened.

Boo hoo hoo, good for them.



Happy New Year!

BlKnight
12-31-2002, 10:37 PM
Threatened? Have you even read my post?

Good for them? Why good for them? This isn't a scenerio where the good people fo Samurai rebel against their evil owners the Astri. This is a situation where Samurai decides to backstab and conquer the people who have spent time and effort helping them because they can.

I will make sure that the next tiem Astri conquers a kingdom it won't be so nice to them like we did Samurai.

feivel
12-31-2002, 10:57 PM
Hmm maybe you werent paying attention but...
the main thing the Samurai people wanted was not me out of power. Alot of the people who said they wanted me out of power like Rahz and Lyndzey, were in on the plan. We faked a military coup detat and made it look like I was backstabbed by my supporters. And therefore it only make sense that they attack you. You didnt play smartly, you gave freedom to people who supported me in the long run, and now you pay. You basically caused trouble to begin with by involving yourself in affairs that didnt concern you.

BlKnight
12-31-2002, 11:02 PM
I see so you pretend to be in need of help, we give you all the help you need, and you backstab us, which is a dirty thing to do by any standard and now you are trying to blame us for it?

I doubt that you will ever have another ally again.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
01-01-2003, 01:06 AM
It was not backstabbing, we had this whole thing figured out way before astri decided to take over the world for the "good of humanity and mankind"

I should hope that Samurai and Dustari are allies, and they should be, because they are all fighting a common tyrant here.

It isn't worth a damn if the leader of one nation thinks he is trying to purify the world with his goodness by installing new leaders into thrones because if everyone else viewed him as tyrant and fascist dictator then he will obviously look bad. Don't you think that those other evil leaders of the 20th century (don't need to name names) thought they were doing a favor when they exterminated an entire race of people? Doing a favor when they put countries behind the iron curtain? Yes, but on the other side of the coin the rest of the world saw it as aggressive and totalitarian. That's what Zurkiba doesn't understand.

Zurk, perhaps you didn't understand me. When you left Dustari, I said go because you were not giving me an option. You were going to leave whether you liked it or not,. Once you left, you provided nothing for Dustari, in fact, you attacked it. And don't give me that garbage about attacking Samurai so Dustari could have a chance to resurrect. It's not true. Jourdan asked me if he could leave, and he was willing to stay if I asked him to, but I let him go, and he provided Dustari with the alliance, which hopefully remains, between Dustari and Samurai

I wish Samurai the best of luck in it's campaign, whether it has other kingdoms helping it or not.

ZanderX
01-01-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by _0AfTeRsHoCk0_
It was not backstabbing, we had this whole thing figured out way before astri decided to take over the world for the "good of humanity and mankind"

I should hope that Samurai and Dustari are allies, and they should be, because they are all fighting a common tyrant here.

It isn't worth a damn if the leader of one nation thinks he is trying to purify the world with his goodness by installing new leaders into thrones because if everyone else viewed him as tyrant and fascist dictator then he will obviously look bad. Don't you think that those other evil leaders of the 20th century (don't need to name names) thought they were doing a favor when they exterminated an entire race of people? Doing a favor when they put countries behind the iron curtain? Yes, but on the other side of the coin the rest of the world saw it as aggressive and totalitarian. That's what Zurkiba doesn't understand.

Zurk, perhaps you didn't understand me. When you left Dustari, I said go because you were not giving me an option. You were going to leave whether you liked it or not,. Once you left, you provided nothing for Dustari, in fact, you attacked it. And don't give me that garbage about attacking Samurai so Dustari could have a chance to resurrect. It's not true. Jourdan asked me if he could leave, and he was willing to stay if I asked him to, but I let him go, and he provided Dustari with the alliance, which hopefully remains, between Dustari and Samurai

I wish Samurai the best of luck in it's campaign, whether it has other kingdoms helping it or not.

please im me.

Mista_Micro
01-01-2003, 01:26 AM
Excalibur Writes:

"Well, Zurkiba, told you this would be the outcome from the start -_- I can't help you at all for another 20 days or so, and even when i'm unbanned, I am a laggy sob, until I get my new computer in 2 months. Bleh, oh well. I guess trying to give kingdoms liberty is a bad thing now. Good luck, my spare p2p runs out in a day and a half. :-) Good thing I got a ps2."

Zurkiba
01-01-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by _0AfTeRsHoCk0_

1) It was not backstabbing, we had this whole thing figured out way before astri decided to take over the world for the "good of humanity and mankind"

2) It isn't worth a damn if the leader of one nation thinks he is trying to purify the world with his goodness by installing new leaders into thrones because if everyone else viewed him as tyrant and fascist dictator then he will obviously look bad. Don't you think that those other evil leaders of the 20th century (don't need to name names) thought they were doing a favor when they exterminated an entire race of people? Doing a favor when they put countries behind the iron curtain? Yes, but on the other side of the coin the rest of the world saw it as aggressive and totalitarian. That's what Zurkiba doesn't understand.

3) Zurk, perhaps you didn't understand me. When you left Dustari, I said go because you were not giving me an option. You were going to leave whether you liked it or not,. Once you left, you provided nothing for Dustari, in fact, you attacked it. And don't give me that garbage about attacking Samurai so Dustari could have a chance to resurrect. It's not true. Jourdan asked me if he could leave, and he was willing to stay if I asked him to, but I let him go, and he provided Dustari with the alliance, which hopefully remains, between Dustari and Samurai

I wish Samurai the best of luck in it's campaign, whether it has other kingdoms helping it or not.

4) I should hope that Samurai and Dustari are allies, and they should be, because they are all fighting a common tyrant here.
1) Backstabbing is where you attack a kingdom or someone when they are trusting you. The Samurai backstabbed us because they signed a deal in ink that stated they would be our friends. Then they turned around and attacked us

2) I'm just misunderstood. And it isn't just overthrowing people. Larrien is still in power, right? I'm fighting for peace but everyone else prefers war.

3) I clearly asked you Aftershock, "Brad needs me in Forest, can I go?" You said "Yes if you really want to". About the Zormite thing, I asked you then too. You said Go Ahead. I was always willing to stay but you let me go. And why didn't anything come from the Zormites to Dustari? Well at the time Brad was leading it and that was when Dustari was destroyed. So how could we help ruins? I knew that Dustari would come back so I was blazing it's trail. If you dont believe me then dont, Because I know what I did and why I did it. I was loyal to Dustari, I still am Loyal to Dustari, and I always will.

4) Why would anyone trust the Samurai? They've allready shown everyone that they cant be trusted. Their backstabbing ways would get them too. And Samurai isn't fighting Astri because of it's ways. It's fighting Astri because it's bored and Zalinto wanted to be the Allaince Leader, Which there is none.
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And Dashio, we attacked because nearly everyone wanted us to help overthrow you. So we were nice enough to help those people. So because we helped the Samurai people, we get backstabbed.

BlKnight
01-01-2003, 01:04 PM
You have admit, as evil and dirty as it was, the plan was pretty good.


1. Pretend to be in need of liberation
2. Asti spends time and effort "liberating" Samurai
3. Samurai grows protected by the very people they plan to attack
4. Samurai now can post untrue messages about how evil Astri was to them, giving them a reason to attack Astri which was their goal in the first place

Zurkiba
01-01-2003, 01:32 PM
Yes... we're not evil.
We just want to help the world but there are the powerhungry people who just want to oppose us.

For the 10,000 time... We are not Power Hungry... we are peaceloving. But on 2k1, Ghost taught me one thing.
"That peace is just to get down, tie your shoe, and get back up"

And I know that if I was to make peace with the world through diplomacy, they'd turn on me. So I do it by conquest.
----------------------------
And You know something? The Samurai could have avoided this war if they would've just talked to the allaince.

So who are the warmongers now?
----------------------------
And according to reports... Dustari and Samurai both consipired against us without a reason. They just wanted to own a nation which they wont get.

BlKnight
01-01-2003, 01:55 PM
I hope a lesson has been learned here.

It is time to conquer with fire.

feivel
01-01-2003, 05:22 PM
Ok we never pretended to be in need of liberation...
sertain members actually wanted me to be removed.
I also had a major number of members who did not want me removed. Astri came to remove me to fulfill the wishes of a small group of bumbling bumblers and since the large group who supported me could not overpower Astri and keep them from overpowering me, they made believe to support my removal in order that they wouldnt be hunted down and excecuted. Meanwhile you were careless and believed them and when you didnt expect it they attacked you. They never pretended to be in need of liberation. Also you said i could have averted attack if I had talked to the alliance. thats a load of bull****. All you did was constantly message me and threaten that if I didnt do a certain thing that invasion was immenent, and when i did that you said i had to do something else. Then you invaded anyway. You took advantage of the fact that I had just removed everyone in order to restructure, and attacked when there were only 6 members.

feivel
01-01-2003, 05:28 PM
Oh and nearly everyone wanted me overthrown, all the people who wanted me overthrown werent even members of the kingdom. The ones who did want me overthrown either quit or were kicked out because of bad RPing. So now your justifying my removal from power because people not even affiliated with the Samurai kingdom wanted me out of power. That would be like everyone in China saying "We dont like Vladimir Putin" and then Georgie W Bush saying "Well it seems as if billions of people dont want Vladimir Putin in power, so I guess its fair to take him out of power since everyone hates him"


Thats not how the world works. And furthermore it is always bad diplomatic stance to get involved in a countries civil war.

ZanderX
01-01-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Zurkiba
snip

Even Freud would say...he has issues. :(

Lyndzey
01-02-2003, 12:08 AM
This is all my fault :\

ZanderX
01-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Lyndzey
This is all my fault :\

HAI FIVE, GURL. ;D

Trouble is good, complacency is bad.

Zurkiba
01-02-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Lyndzey
This is all my fault :\
Dont worry about it...

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
01-02-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Lyndzey
This is all my fault :\
Not really
Would you rather see monotony between kingdoms forever... and a rule of Astri, or at least a fight to save ther remnants of the free world

I'm glad you did what you did.. I would have never expected it from you :)

Zurkiba
01-02-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by _0AfTeRsHoCk0_

Not really
Would you rather see monotony between kingdoms forever... and a rule of Astri, or at least a fight to save ther remnants of the free world

I'm glad you did what you did.. I would have never expected it from you :)
We never controlled everything... and Lyndzey can vouch for me.

We let her do what she wanted to and we didn't force her to do anything. We just tried to bring a great peace between the kingdoms.
--------------
The only thing that I wish would've never happened, would be when Lyndzey did establish this plan :/

Because I fought for her and she wanted me dead. But she has changed and it shows us that the Samurai respect the rank not the person.

feivel
01-02-2003, 10:59 AM
I find it interesting that it has just hit you that Samurai have great respect for ranking... ever heard of honor and loyalty above all else, if the Shogun were a mentally challenged three year old (I know some of you are going to jump at the chance to say "like you feivel") it would still be required for the people to be loyal to him. If a higher ranking samurai was the meanest little ******* in the world, lower ranking samurai would still be required to show respect for him. Its called society man, and if you were oblicious to this up until now then well you were careless i guess.

Zurkiba
01-02-2003, 11:15 AM
No... you respect the person not the rank...

When a US President's term is over people still respect him as Mr. President.

It's bad if Samurai respects the rank over the person because then you've just made a 2k1 Dustari.

TerrorBite
01-02-2003, 11:27 AM
Heh heh, Lyndzey sure was convincing about removing Dashio... she had my head spinning with questions and confusion during that time... I couldn't decide if I was for Dashio or against him, but I guess that helped add to the authenticness of the plan ^.^ Actually I don't really like you, Zurk... you kept trying to recruit me even after I said I was in samurai and would never be in another ... I'm not a kingdom hopper, although I did take a leave for a short time until it was not completely military

Zurkiba
01-02-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by TerrorBite
Heh heh, Lyndzey sure was convincing about removing Dashio... she had my head spinning with questions and confusion during that time... I couldn't decide if I was for Dashio or against him, but I guess that helped add to the authenticness of the plan ^.^ Actually I don't really like you, Zurk... you kept trying to recruit me even after I said I was in samurai and would never be in another ... I'm not a kingdom hopper, although I did take a leave for a short time until it was not completely military
That was one time -_-...
I was like
"Chibi... want to join Astri? :p"

I said that because Locke_boy asked me to do it. So if you hate me for that then go kick Locke_boy in the shin or something

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 12:04 PM
Dashio, let me see if I got this straight:

You aren't obligated to server Astri, but honour obligates you to do so. Therefore, rather then be dishonourable and simply quit the alliance, you decide to try to conquer us? Makes much more sense:rolleyes:

TerrorBite
01-02-2003, 12:11 PM
Oh ok, Zurk :p, I didn't know he asked you ;P, I just thought he said something or something and you thought you could get another warrior ^.^;; well anyways sorry for getting mad at you. ((kicks Locke_boy in the shin ;)))

ArchonX
01-02-2003, 12:32 PM
:pHello Dashio

feivel
01-02-2003, 02:42 PM
Actually why the hell would we be obligated to honour you?
We were over-run by barbarians...
that makes us obligated to honour you how?
Also I am proud to announce this only proves Rahz is a real Shogun. Shogun is short for Seiteishougun, which means "Great unifying leader who organized the expidition to overthrow the barbarians." Hurray for Rahz!

And hello my Samurai friends :D
I would get on graal but im at my grandparents house in florida and i dont know my password.

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 03:20 PM
First of all, we never overan you. We kicked you out and asked Lyndzey if she wanted to be part of the alliance.

Second, you were only "overun" because you tricked us into believing that it was what the people of Samurai wanted.

Therefore, this arguement, and all other arguements you have are invalid.



FINALLY

Attacking a country that has no control over you is not "overthrowing". It'd be just like America attacking Canada.

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 03:25 PM
Let me put this into real world examples. Not that it is not anything that actually happened.


South Korea feigns a revolution. It asks Nato for assistence. Nato moves in and overthrows the South korean government. Nato offers the new Korean government to be part of Nato. Korea accepts, and now builds and army while being protected by Nato. Korea now has a giant army, and attacks one of the nations in Nato under the propegandic guise of liberating itself from it's Nato "owners".

busyrobot
01-02-2003, 04:43 PM
South Korea feigns a revolution. It asks Nato for assistence.

The part you don't get is the fact you were going to attack Samurai anyway, no matter what, unless they met your demands and allowed you to dominate their policies.

You were helpful to them:
if they joined the alliance.
[i]if[/if] they didn't second guess the overthrow of their leader
if they didn't second guess attacks on other kingdoms

Any you claim you 'gave' them their independence?

Besides, in your South Korea example, you'd REALLY need to look at the type of revolutionaries your aiding.
As any true conspirators that wanted the Shogun removed were doing so through treachery, it's funny you now complain you were victims of treachery.


I could probably find one or two in Astri (or Ex-Astri elsewhere) that would LOVE some kingdom to come to their aid and ensure a little revolution goes their way.

This, by the way, has been a repeated mistake throughout history, one that has bit US foreign policy in the rear more than once.

Please, though, stop pouting about it. You thought you could exploit cracks in Samurai loyalties to your advantage, and it blew up in your face.

If you weren't prepared for the contingencies, than you shouldn't have attempted the plan in the first place.

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 04:45 PM
busywhatever, the samurai are posting untrue things in an attempt to gather support

I have the right to clear things up

And we were never going to attack Samurai until they asked for help. In the end they are the ones who attacked us. Just in a very weird method.

busyrobot
01-02-2003, 05:12 PM
Well, if Zurki didn't threaten the Samurai, than that must of been a first. I can recall he's threatened just about every other, except maybe the pirates.

The Astri have lost all credibility on this matter.

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 06:05 PM
Too bad that this time we are the ones who are correct and samurai are the ones who are wrong.

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
01-02-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by BlKnight
Too bad that this time we are the ones who are correct and samurai are the ones who are wrong.
subjective opinion

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 08:15 PM
No, it's not subjective if you know all the facts.

They say that they are simply trying to stop our control. But if a) we never had any control b) they were free to leave anytime they wanted attacking us is wrong.

feivel
01-02-2003, 08:19 PM
Um what about the innocent lives you claimed when you attacked us unprovoked. What about a whole system you tore down. Especially since the whole reason was to ensure that Samurai was a kingdom who you could control or atleast make sure it was too weak to fight against you. Dont even try to hide this anymore.

BlKnight
01-02-2003, 08:41 PM
Now that's just being silly. It wasn't unprovoked because, wether it was a real cry for help or acted out by the Samurai, people were asking us to help them overthrow you. Secondly, if we really wanted to keep Samurai down, why would we allow the leader full control? Why, when Lyndzey's letter clearly put us in charge of running Samurai, we let Shogun continue to be in full control?

Answer to that!

feivel
01-02-2003, 11:40 PM
Ok and once again, the people who asked for help werent real members, they were people who I kicked out. You came in and forced me out of leadership. And without warning you attacked soldiers defending me. That is an unprovoked attack. This is revenge.

Zurkiba
01-03-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by feivel
Ok and once again, the people who asked for help werent real members, they were people who I kicked out. You came in and forced me out of leadership. And without warning you attacked soldiers defending me. That is an unprovoked attack. This is revenge.
if 99% of my members go
"I HATE YOU ZURK"
and I remove them, then it still means that they're going to try and overpower us. Just because you removed them doesn't mean they just died.

I THINK but I'm not sure... but two of those people who weren't in Samurai consisted of Chibi and Lyndzey. The two most reconized Samurai.


Originally posted by busyrobot

Please, though, stop pouting about it. You thought you could exploit cracks in Samurai loyalties to your advantage, and it blew up in your face.

Are you Lyndzey? Have you talked with Lyndzey about this subject? I dont believe so because she was the Samurai leader who we put into power.

Why dont you go ask her some of the questions your asking us.. like
"Were we Imperious to you", "Did we take even 0.0001% of the power in Samurai", "Did we just let you rot", "Did we try to control your government", etc...

You want to know the only power Astri had in Samurai? We had the right to choose a new leader if Lyndzey left. Why? Because Lyndzey was saying "If my people want me out of office then I will resign". Not the best words to hear when you're conquering a state for her and she's overhere saying that she'll give it all up.
--------

And the post about how we would help Samurai if they joined the Allaince and stuff like that... well erm DUH! It's the point of the allaince, you help me and I help you. We never forced them too, they joined on their free will.

You all just want dirt on Astri so you say things such as Evil Dictators, Enslavers of the Samurai and Dustarians, everything.

We treated Samurai just like we treated Dustari. And you can ask Larrien how well we treated them. We helped when they had a problem in politics and other things.
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This thread is going nowhere, they keep arguing the same case over and over again... so can we close the threads "Breakup of the..." and "SAMURAI declares war on..."

Thank you

_0AfTeRsHoCk0_
01-03-2003, 07:20 PM
okay, I suppose I will close this thread. Although I was enjoying it, it's really getting nowhere anymore.