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Tyhm
06-24-2002, 11:44 PM
How about Nations get no new weapons at all. Races get weapons instead. Humans get everything Humans currently get. Lizardons are constantly in Baddy form. Vampires are vampires for unlife. Dwarves can throw their hammers. Zorbis blow bubbles, heal in water, and dive naturally (A in water or underwater, since there's nothing to lift down there anyway). Aliens naturally respawn and hop everywhere. I seperate Races from Nations, and instead we have any given race in any given nation - Lizardon archers, Zorbis defending BadLand, Alien magi, Dwarven knights, Human ninji....there wouldn't be as many nations this way, but I have my doubts that Graal could really handle 10 or 11 nations with a peak of 90 players.

Additional advantage - I can impliment races sooner than Nations, it could practically be a logon choice.

draygin
06-24-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Can't create scripts to stop hacking when the new trainers detect and disable all scripts that would otherwise detect them.

Back on topic - how about Nations get no new weapons at all. Races get weapons instead. Humans get everything Humans currently get. Lizardons are constantly in Baddy form. Vampires are vampires for unlife. Dwarves can throw their hammers. Zorbis blow bubbles, heal in water, and dive naturally (A in water or underwater, since there's nothing to lift down there anyway). Aliens naturally respawn and hop everywhere. I seperate Races from Nations, and instead we have any given race in any given nation - Lizardon archers, Zorbis defending BadLand, Alien magi, Dwarven knights, Human ninji....there wouldn't be as many nations this way, but I have my doubts that Graal could really handle 10 or 11 nations with a peak of 90 players.

Additional advantage - I can impliment races sooner than Nations, it could practically be a logon choice.

That sounds like a good option. That way some kindgoms would have a mixture of races. But you wouldnt have enemy races in the same kingdom etc... Such as Dwarves and elves really have a dislike for each other. (for the most part)

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 12:09 AM
I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

draygin
06-25-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

It would probably be best to make sure evil races cant be with good races Such as Vampires and Humans. I dont think that would work to well. Maybe two races instead of just 1. Such as no Vampires or Lizardons in Graal Nation. No humans or Zorbie/Gaia (which ever) In badlands etc... Or maybe it should be kingdom sesnitive depending on what the kingdom is only certain races can join it.

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
I can put in restrictions, like Humans cannot join Badland and Lizardons cannot join Graal Nation...

I figure we'd have 6 races, and 6 nations. Each nation could allow all but one race.
Graal Nation - no Lizardons
Ninji Nation - no Vampires
Avalon - no Gnomes
Gaia - no Zorbi
Sardon - no Aliens
Badland/Chaotica - no humans
Or conversely, just let anyone join any. If everyone likes being Human, then Badland Nation's screwed.

Hmm, that would work.
I'm guessing each race would have it's own passive skill and hoepfully a weakness to even out their strength.
We could also then get rid of MultiNationing so you could only be in one Nation at a time and only have one passive skill.
Still, we have the job on thinking how to even out each race and make them equal in far as power goes, since the players will want to join the race with the most powerful attack and such.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 04:41 AM
And welcome to it! If they want to be a Lizardon, they can be a lizardon and PK all they like - it will not prevent the Zorbi from bubbling them away. It's all in the balance. ^_~

So Graal: No Lizardon or Vampire
Ninji: No Alien or Zorbi
Avalon: No Vampire or Gnome
Sardon: No Alien or Gnome
Gaia: No Human or Lizardon
Badland: No Zorbi or Human

Every race is excluded twice, every nation excludes two races...still sucks to be Badland if Human is the most popular race, but it sucks to be Gaia too.

draygin
06-25-2002, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
And welcome to it! If they want to be a Lizardon, they can be a lizardon and PK all they like - it will not prevent the Zorbi from bubbling them away. It's all in the balance. ^_~

So Graal: No Lizardon or Vampire
Ninji: No Alien or Zorbi
Avalon: No Vampire or Gnome
Sardon: No Alien or Gnome
Gaia: No Human or Lizardon
Badland: No Zorbi or Human

Every race is excluded twice, every nation excludes two races...still sucks to be Badland if Human is the most popular race, but it sucks to be Gaia too.

It sounds good. If it becomes a problem with badland and Gaia. You could always add some sort of NPC as a little incentive for people to join. Seeing as how a major race is excluded an NPC might help balance it. But I would wait and see if its even necessary of course.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 05:12 AM
Yeah, I have an easier time reconciling evil zorbies and vampires with souls than screwing over two nations and telling people what they can't do.

So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage? Lizardons can't ride horses...hm, which would make the Ninja Quest impossible...I guess they'd keep Baddy Form as an optional...

freddyfox
06-25-2002, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage?

Humans are the "yardstick" in most games. They have no advantages/disadvantages over the other races. They can use all weapons and armor.

draygin
06-25-2002, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Yeah, I have an easier time reconciling evil zorbies and vampires with souls than screwing over two nations and telling people what they can't do.

So what's gonna be the Human advantage/otherwiseglobaldisadvantage? Lizardons can't ride horses...hm, which would make the Ninja Quest impossible...I guess they'd keep Baddy Form as an optional...

Or maybe just add a script for the ninja quest alone in the horse. I'm not a scripter so maybe it cant be done but something like client.lizardon=true enable horse riding. Just somethign that will let them ride that one horse only.

/ADDON ok just had an idea. You could also maybe have a script that disables lizardon image for quest but once you leave either through warp ring completion of quest or warping out. It could renable the Lizardon image.

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 07:14 AM
Yeah, Humans would have no advantages or disadvantages.
They're just the normal guys. The rest of the races would have an advantage over the humans, but with an equal disadvantage as well, to keep things fair.
Just tell me what we're doing Tyhm and I'll try and give you some ideas.

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 07:45 AM
That was a bit to digest in one sitting, but I think I get the basic idea.

You can break it down like this:

Choose a class, then race, and then a "personality," which computes to Nation, Race, and Passive skill, respectively.

Affiliation will mainly be based on Nation (and basically Race, since it's tied to one another). I'm lost on how you want the advantage/disadvantage thing done, so I am going to assume it's still the same elemental weakness/strength. Choosing a Race would determine the basic scale (ie: Human would be 50-50 on all elementals, while Zorbi, Gaia, Gnome, Alien, and all the "good" Races will be unaffected by the 4 positive elementals but weak against the negative elementals, whereas the "bad" Races will be unaffected by bad magic and weak against good magic), and Nation will specialize in that advantage/disadvantage branch further.

The main problem with the system (no matter which way you go) is the fact that there's such a variety to choose from, certain nations are definitely going to be utterly neglected and basically rendered useless. It might be a good idea to start combining some Nations (or their attributes) to form fewer popular Nations (or just do a public vote to see which ones get voted out).

Also shouldn't limit people from doing the opposite of their Race/Nation's theme or goal. It would be far more interesting to see a rogue dragoon being evil than to have everyone be too predictable and uniformed in their actions. Specialization would be great, but you should also be able to reset and start over with a new "character" because people are bound to ***** about how they screwed up due to a lack of instructions.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 08:17 AM
Lizardon - advantages: Lizardon Form, regeneration
Disadvantages: Can't use magic? Gonna screw up some future quests...double the cost then?
Zorbi - advantages: Bubbles, water healing
Disadvangages: ?
Alien - advantages: Irradiate spell (Lunaris Blast), Respawning.
Disadvantages: Can't...um...get sword 3? Again, gonna screw up some future quests.
Gnome - advantages: Hammer throw, various other weapon upgrades I guess, bomb catching.
Disadvantages: ?
Vampire - advantages: Recover by drinking blood, dash at night/indoors
Disadvantages: Hearts rapidly decrease to 3 outdoors during the day? Can't cross running water?

I need to know what disadvantages I can give these races that won't totally screw up the game.

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Lizardon - advantages: Lizardon Form, regeneration
Disadvantages: Can't use magic? Gonna screw up some future quests...double the cost then?
Zorbi - advantages: Bubbles, water healing
Disadvangages: ?
Alien - advantages: Irradiate spell (Lunaris Blast), Respawning.
Disadvantages: Can't...um...get sword 3? Again, gonna screw up some future quests.
Gnome - advantages: Hammer throw, various other weapon upgrades I guess, bomb catching.
Disadvantages: ?
Vampire - advantages: Recover by drinking blood, dash at night/indoors
Disadvantages: Hearts rapidly decrease to 3 outdoors during the day? Can't cross running water?

I need to know what disadvantages I can give these races that won't totally screw up the game.

Lizardon disadvantage: Walk slower? Slower healing rate? Should be able to use magic, but maybe the basic elements are less effective when they use it.

Zorbi disadvantage: Slower on land? Can't heal on surface?

Alien disadvantage: Hmmph, that's a tough one. I can say really suck at using weapons, but that would screw things up. No other ideas for it, really, besides maybe they are more vulnerable if they are not on Lunaris, or they do that drunk animation whenever they get hit (so long as you are a part of the nation, doesn't count as passive).

Gnome disadvantage: Easily interrupted attacks, or their attacks are slow?

Vampire disadvantage: REALLY slow in water, can't use their tools to fullest power in daylight. Normal at night.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 08:37 AM
Hm.
Lizardons walk slower, that's pretty good...could make some conveyor-belt style levels impossible though. Making their magic less effective's gonna be tough - maybe they're just naturally super-vulnerable to all magic?
A Zorbi with a PK tag wouldn't even notice being unable to heal on land...plus, again, I fear for the Zorbi newbies if they try to get through the conveyor belts in AvWell.
Aliens, drunk when hit...that could be good.
Gnomes...I kinda like the idea of their attacks being slow...maybe they get a slight freeze after swinging their sword? They have to recover? Or trade that with the Aliens...
Vampires are gonna have no trouble at all with quests, as they're basically all outdoor. Since it's night half the time anyway, they only have to worry about a very small set of cases - when they're outdoors during the day.
So far we got dizzy when hit, longer sword recovery time, and I guess I can throw in no Lizardon sword...one or more of the nations have to trade it in as an item instead of a sword to get a different upgrade...but which nation gets what?

Here's an idea - Gnomes don't get swords at all. It's utterly replaced with their hammer. ^_^

Ditto the Zorbi - they get the bubble wand and "punch", which acts just like the sword, but always at Level 1...

Vampires and Lizardon keep their swords...

Aliens get a shockwave attack they have to charge up? Like Kirby's Beam from SuperStar...tap S, slow-moving beam sword...hold and release S, forward blasting beam sword...hold S and release at max, radial damage (requires spin, basically)...

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 08:46 AM
Then we go back to my idea about martial arts "replacing" swords for Ninji...that would only make perfect sense. -_-

Aliens? I don't know. Maybe they should get something effectively defensive like a taser (I'd call it a shocklance from Tribes 2, which kills instantly if you hit enemies in the back, little damage if you hit them anywhere up front) that CAN kill if you direct it behind the enemy or charge it up, as you said. That'd be their sword. Gnome and hammer, yeah, that would work out nicely. Same with Zorbi.

Should keep all sword replacements close range so they don't get a range advantage over other races, unless they are defensive weapons.

Gnomes should have sufficient defense so they don't get dizzy when they get hit, but Aliens are explorers, so they should due to the fact that they are just scouts not knowing with the expect. ^_~

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 08:57 AM
Lunaris/Alien Race could move a lot slower if not on the moon.
To prevent the convyer belts from chewing them up, they could have some kind of boots that when turned on restore their speed to normal, yet it drains MP when on, it'd be part of the disadvantage.

Perhaps Zorbi's could fatigue when not in water. They'd have a little bar the pops up on top when they are out of water, which slowly drains when out of water, and recharges when in water. As the bar gets lower, their attack speed and walking speed would slowly drop.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 09:00 AM
Sounds good. We may have something here....

Ninji is still a nation, and not a race...but I guess if someone still has the martial arts ganis left over from when G2K1 went with the new bodies, that'd be coo'...

So which race do I make first? The peaceloving Zorbi might win in a straight poll, but the Lizardon are the most obvious anthitheses of Humans...I do kinda wanna make the Gnomes, but I better wait on fixing the hammer graphics /ganis first...

They'd be the easiest to do plotwise too, come to think of it...start the player in the Gnome barracks instead of the orphanage...script the maid to grant NewbieSaint just like Sister Gertrude...they get the hammer pretty quick just talking to the king, then Adroit...put some rocks in the hallway to keep them from getting directly out...change some signs to point them towards Graal Castle, where the ambassador said he was fleeing to...go the long way, get the glove there, walk the ambassador home, resume the quest as usual with the rocks cleared...

Lizardons are gonna need their own start place, glove quest, hammer quest...figure it could connect to the Gnome Mines at the skull room, one doorway goes back to the Gnome Mines and is closed to Lizardons, the other doorway goes back to the Lizardon Mines and is closed to everyone else....

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Lunaris/Alien Race could move a lot slower if not on the moon.
To prevent the convyer belts from chewing them up, they could have some kind of boots that when turned on restore their speed to normal, yet it drains MP when on, it'd be part of the disadvantage.

Perhaps Zorbi's could fatigue when not in water. They'd have a little bar the pops up on top when they are out of water, which slowly drains when out of water, and recharges when in water. As the bar gets lower, their attack speed and walking speed would slowly drop.

No comment on the conveyer belt.

I like fatigue, but I think they should be slow all around anyway. Could also go a reverse route and have them adjust to the land speed the longer they stay on land, and then they move slower in the water until they adapt to THAT again, but that's probably too intricate to be worthy.

If a fatigue/stamina bar is adopted, it should also be present for Lunaris and Vampire, too.

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


No comment on the conveyer belt.

I like fatigue, but I think they should be slow all around anyway. Could also go a reverse route and have them adjust to the land speed the longer they stay on land, and then they move slower in the water until they adapt to THAT again, but that's probably too intricate to be worthy.

If a fatigue/stamina bar is adopted, it should also be present for Lunaris and Vampire, too.

No, wouldn't need bars for Lunaris and Vampire.
Lunaris's gravity is lower than it is on Graal, so as soon as they get on Graal, the effects of our gravity would start right away, not slowly.
Vampires would slowly get slower as it gets lighter, only bar there'd is one shoing how light it is getting.

With Zorbis, they are slowly drying up as they are off land.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 09:08 AM
Um, DC, the trouble comes in that there is no water at all in the main quest until Babord, and there is no magic by the time you get to the avalon well...

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 09:15 AM
Hmm, perhaps they would get a protective bubble for breathing until they have access to water, or they could buy little water canisters or something from shops and/or Sister Gertrude.
But on the other hand, water can be easily added and it wouldn't be totally nessicary to have full energy to go through quests.

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK

Lunaris's gravity is lower than it is on Graal, so as soon as they get on Graal, the effects of our gravity would start right away, not slowly.


So they would move slower and then return to normal speed?

Or maybe the less they attack/use weapons, the more normal they would walk. Everytime they use a weapon or some sort or an attack or some sort that doesn't measure up to running away or other types of defenses, they slow down again and have to wait to build up normal speed?

For Zorbis (Zorbas, whatever), it would make sense for them to dry up, but that might get too complicated for its own good. Should just make them slow, too. But then the innovation in the idea of disadvantages get old...we really need to test these things out to see how they work in real situations, like we did with the nations (Graal, Vampire, et cetera).

While we're at it, maybe we need to revamp some nation weapons too (Ninji's stars, Graal's judgement, Dragoon's jump).

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 09:20 AM
Bleh.

Zorbi are gonna be a pain. Best way to work it would be to have them start out underwater, in an underwater orphanage in Ceres town, get a lot of stuff there as a mirror to the Human quests, then surface somewhere around Avalon...I suppose I could just set up the Gnome mines so the ambient water is accessable, have them start out in the human orphanage, but euh.

DarkCloud_PK
06-25-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


So they would move slower and then return to normal speed?

Or maybe the less they attack/use weapons, the more normal they would walk. Everytime they use a weapon or some sort or an attack or some sort that doesn't measure up to running away or other types of defenses, they slow down again and have to wait to build up normal speed?

For Zorbis (Zorbas, whatever), it would make sense for them to dry up, but that might get too complicated for its own good. Should just make them slow, too. But then the innovation in the idea of disadvantages get old...we really need to test these things out to see how they work in real situations, like we did with the nations (Graal, Vampire, et cetera).

While we're at it, maybe we need to revamp some nation weapons too (Ninji's stars, Graal's judgement, Dragoon's jump).

Yeah, I agree we need to test this stuff first, since we can only assume the effects.
Zorbi's wouldn't dry up entirely, they'd just get fatigued.
I just used the term so you could see why they'd have that bar.

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 09:27 AM
I'd just as soon avoid having another status bar...

Tyhm
06-25-2002, 11:27 AM
Baddy form set up - it'll slow players slightly without sending them backwards. Pretty sure it works everywhere, I'll lock it in the On position and replay the whole damn game with it on. It'll need a LOT of new ganis and require rescripting a LOT of NPCs, but it'll be worth it. ;)

Trouble is, if Lizardons are slow, and Lunarians are slow...but Lizardons get no shield...so I guess they're not as slow, huh? ^_~

Terazel Tenjin
06-25-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Baddy form set up - it'll slow players slightly without sending them backwards. Pretty sure it works everywhere, I'll lock it in the On position and replay the whole damn game with it on. It'll need a LOT of new ganis and require rescripting a LOT of NPCs, but it'll be worth it. ;)

Trouble is, if Lizardons are slow, and Lunarians are slow...but Lizardons get no shield...so I guess they're not as slow, huh? ^_~

Sounds good, especially if you're doing the "build up normal speed if not attacking" package for Lunaris...

Now, onto other problems...Dragoons...

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 06:40 AM
Okay, so Lizardons - locked in the Lizardon Form, (Guess I'll make a special way of setting it since coat/sleeve is so janky), Slightly slower (and it can be boosted to almost human speed through scripting) - now Baddies do have shields, they're just wholly ineffective, do I give the baddy race shields? Take away Newbie Saint...they have slow regen...
They're just a few ganis and some testing/debugging/balancing away from ready to release then.

Oh yeah, spin sucks...what should they get instead?

DarkCloud_PK
06-26-2002, 08:29 AM
Junction status effects to swords for MP. You'd turn on an NPC, and for each slash you swing with your sword, it would take away like 4 MP and have a 50% chance of causing a status change based on whatever status Tyhm would deem for them. Like for instance, Posion Sword for Ninjis, costs four 4mp a swing, but has a 50% chance of poisioning the target with each hit.

Could have Ice Sword.
Flame Sword.
Confusion Sword.
Posion Sword.

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 08:32 AM
Maybe for Gaia? They are somewhat sadly underpowered, too.

For Lizardon...bleh. What else is there besides flamebreath, clawshoot, and spinning? Maybe some sort of primative portable rocket launcher??? Molotov ****tails??? Beats me.

DarkCloud_PK
06-26-2002, 08:34 AM
Drain Sword for Lizardions, or something of the such, getting a little health back for killing or harming their prey.

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Drain Sword for Lizardions, or something of the such, getting a little health back for killing or harming their prey.

Sounds like bloodlust. Almost vampire-like. Maybe they are cannibals? Heh.

DarkCloud_PK
06-26-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Terazel Tenjin


Sounds like bloodlust. Almost vampire-like. Maybe they are cannibals? Heh.

Could work for Vamps too, heh.

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 09:22 AM
Vampires already have the closest I could muster to Drain Sword.

DarkCloud_PK
06-26-2002, 09:23 AM
Wasn't really going for Vamps.
I wanted to give a drain sword to Lizardion and a Posion Sword to Ninji to replace those stars.

Edit: Could add a status effect to Avalon's sword move to give it more use, like the death magic effect.

A random sword status effect could be nice too, don't see a Nation to link it to though.

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 09:42 AM
I personally don't favor the sword magics for NATIONS. If anything, it should just be magic and unrelated to Nations/Races...

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 09:47 AM
Yeah. I might do sword magic as a seperate thing. Wouldn't be hard to integrate into the crystal ball, assuming I don't run out of space again first.

For Lizardon...maybe Shockwave? Send a ripple of energy along the ground at the target, it sorta traces like a Lode Knife, but without the dead on accuracy...

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Yeah. I might do sword magic as a seperate thing. Wouldn't be hard to integrate into the crystal ball, assuming I don't run out of space again first.

For Lizardon...maybe Shockwave? Send a ripple of energy along the ground at the target, it sorta traces like a Lode Knife, but without the dead on accuracy...

Earthquake type thing...hmm...I guess that could work. Maybe ability to attack multiple enemies like so...

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 09:56 AM
It would send out three ripples...they track along the ground and find the three closest enemies (humans, baddies if you're not in the Badland Nation - they'll retain the Lizardon Nation's old Contract With The Baddies passive power so that regular Lizardons can do regular quests), then start adjusting towards them...like bowling, it's an inertia thing, sometimes it hits, sometimes it hits other than your target, sometimes it hammers your target for (swordpower+2) halfhearts

DarkCloud_PK
06-26-2002, 10:22 AM
That'd be nice, if it had an MP thing going for it.
Could also have like some type of rage mode, where the Lizadion's strength and speed increases a bit in exchange for rapdily draining either MP or HP. Might be too strong though.

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
That'd be nice, if it had an MP thing going for it.
Could also have like some type of rage mode, where the Lizadion's strength and speed increases a bit in exchange for rapdily draining either MP or HP. Might be too strong though.

Sounds like the beserker attack I was telling Yump about. :p

That would work if other races didn't have defensive passive powers. They would get obliterated with the current balance.

Could fall back on the Rage NPCW you made back in the day, Tyhm...that was fun.

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 11:17 AM
No MP. Races = before Magic by a lot, Nations = after Magic by a lot.

Terazel Tenjin
06-26-2002, 02:16 PM
Okay, so to recap, what's the final list of Races and Nations, along with their attributes (just want to make sure the ones that are thrown out are staying out so I can stop thinking of ideas to fix them)?

Tyhm
06-26-2002, 11:50 PM
Human - newbie saint, normal speed, normal for all attacks, no regen, no respawn advantage, no free diving, no special vulnerabilities.
Ceres - newbie saint, normal speed, attacks start slower (but by level 3 they're normal), go a little farther, but do no direct damage - well, maybe to baddies. Regen underwater, no respawn, free diving, no special vulnerabilities - or should I make them vulnerable to like, fire and pestilence or something?
Alien - newbie saint, 1/2 speed off the moon, all attacks are slower but have longer range, larger radius, and eventually do more damage. No regen, respawn where they fall, no special vulnerabilties.
Gnome - newbie saint, normal speed, slower attacks on a smaller area with more damage (hammer), throw hammer with spin. No regen, no respawn, no vulnerabilities - they seem to be screwed over here, should I make them resistant to magic?
Vampire - no newbiesaint, faster at night/indoors (basically all quests), normal for all attacks, no diving, some regen (when hurting another player), no respawn advantage, vulnerable to all magic - otherwise just a pumped up human, I'm thinking of just putting them on the Human quest with no changes, save Sister Gertrude fretting over the fate of their immortal soul.
Baddy - no newbiesaint, 3/4 speed which increases to almost normal, instant/constant/automatic attacks by running into things, seismic blast for spin, slow regen, no respawn advantage, no vulnerabilities - think the lack of newbie saint and initial slowness will make up for their not having to use the sword button practically ever? And should I force skins, ie you can customize race but not color - gray at newbiesword, blue at lvl2, red at lvl3...? Or just have it setbaddy baddygray.png (with skin confirming)?

Remaining Nations:
Graal
Ninji
Avalon/Ceres
Gaia/Nimda
SardonBadland

draygin
06-27-2002, 12:02 AM
Sounds nice. I think you should make it so they can choose what skin they have. Other wise you'll eventually end up with like 100's of red lizardons and no other colors. Then people will target you because they know you're weaker.

Ultima_Weapon
06-27-2002, 12:41 AM
Well this sounds fun and all but, just like EQ and each race has a weakness so I guess im going to be just a normal Graalian like always.

DarkCloud_PK
06-27-2002, 02:12 AM
Hmm, could give Gnomes Magic Resistance plus some kind of slow regen rate thing when underground. Zorbis would be vulnerable to Thunder Magic if we had it, that could actually be a nice addition to Graal, causing like some damage + paralysis for a short time. Fire would be a resistance most likely as water extinguishes fire.
Baddies having armor color according to their sword power would be nice, as I could already tell how strong you are swordwise just by right clicking you. So it would just fit in.

Also wanted to add some kind of posion thing to the Ninjis' stars, just because they're Ninjas.

draygin
06-27-2002, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Hmm, could give Gnomes Magic Resistance plus some kind of slow regen rate thing when underground. Zorbis would be vulnerable to Thunder Magic if we had it, that could actually be a nice addition to Graal, causing like some damage + paralysis for a short time. Fire would be a resistance most likely as water extinguishes fire.
Baddies having armor color according to their sword power would be nice, as I could already tell how strong you are swordwise just by right clicking you. So it would just fit in.

Also wanted to add some kind of posion thing to the Ninjis' stars, just because they're Ninjas.

Yes but if a pker is standing there and there is two baddies running by one is say green and the other red he'll normally go for the weaker one. Where as if you have two of the same color or different powers but color doesnt matter. He isnt goign to right click both and check he's just going to attack one randomly.

DarkCloud_PK
06-27-2002, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by draygin


Yes but if a pker is standing there and there is two baddies running by one is say green and the other red he'll normally go for the weaker one. Where as if you have two of the same color or different powers but color doesnt matter. He isnt goign to right click both and check he's just going to attack one randomly.

Part of the dowside of being a baddy. When you're in the army, you don't get to choose what type of uniform and rank you want. ANyway, PKs have like a sixth sense on knowing who's weak and wno's not.

albus777
06-27-2002, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK
Hmm, could give Gnomes Magic Resistance plus some kind of slow regen rate thing when underground. Zorbis would be vulnerable to Thunder Magic if we had it, that could actually be a nice addition to Graal, causing like some damage + paralysis for a short time. Fire would be a resistance most likely as water extinguishes fire.
Baddies having armor color according to their sword power would be nice, as I could already tell how strong you are swordwise just by right clicking you. So it would just fit in.

Also wanted to add some kind of posion thing to the Ninjis' stars, just because they're Ninjas.
Thunder/lightning spell would be a nice addition. You could throw the magic base up in some sky level.

Tyhm
06-27-2002, 04:25 AM
Pain in the arse to add yet another magic type, so no

DarkCloud_PK
06-27-2002, 04:36 AM
They(Zorbis) could take damage from being frozen, since water doesn't befriend ice very well. Or they could take damage from rock/stone magic. Also, now that I look at it, they could take double damage from being start on fire, but it'd be just a tad harder to set them on fire, since they are water beings and all.

Tyhm
06-27-2002, 05:16 AM
Doubledamage from water (ice) and fire magic. Makes sense.

I'm not as concerned with realism as I am with balance.

Terazel Tenjin
06-27-2002, 08:14 AM
Even if it sounds balanced on the drawing board, we still have to have test results. It can vary quite a bit.

Ceres shouldn't be vulnerable to fire. Fire and water should be ineffective for them (maybe heal with their element while fire remains ineffective), while lightning, stone, and the other magics not directly related to them do regular damage, except damage from jolt bombs and stone magic might be more since they are related weaknesses.

Tyhm
06-27-2002, 08:30 AM
There IS no lightning magic, and there will BE no lightning magic while I'm running this show!

Terazel Tenjin
06-27-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
There IS no lightning magic, and there will BE no lightning magic while I'm running this show!

*Shakes head* You're getting too old for this. I said JOLT BOMBS.

Tyhm
06-27-2002, 08:41 AM
And what, I'm supposed to invent the condition if(playerhitbyajoltbombexplosion) ? I can, but it's gonna suck...

Terazel Tenjin
06-27-2002, 08:45 AM
Mleh. Suit yourself. It's not really a need, and it'll probably lag (judgement with baddies, anyone? ^_~).

Now that races are settled, back to Nations. No more passive? Just affiliation and weapon? Makes all the sense in the world, but it feels like it's missing a piece.

Tyhm
07-03-2002, 09:48 AM
Weapon and passive. Gotta balance it. No good even working on that until we get some better security. Imagine nations with the current hacker situation. :(

Dark-Dragoon
07-03-2002, 11:27 AM
Oh...Dang..Wait..
Now we have Nations...AND Races?

Terazel Tenjin
07-03-2002, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Dragoon
Oh...Dang..Wait..
Now we have Nations...AND Races?

Not publically. Still being tested and balanced out. Thus far, only Nations have been uploaded.

Ideas for Nations/Races are constantly being updated and modified for balance and fairness in actual gameplay, so it'll be a while before they are released to the public.

brock128
07-03-2002, 09:20 PM
Before you get too far into nations, I have an idea.

If Zorbi are out of the water, a bar appears, and gets slowly drained. If it's empty, zorbi die? The bar grows longer if you have more fullhearts.

Water Canisters would be a good idea.

DarkCloud_PK
07-03-2002, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by brock128
Before you get too far into nations, I have an idea.

If Zorbi are out of the water, a bar appears, and gets slowly drained. If it's empty, zorbi die? The bar grows longer if you have more fullhearts.

Water Canisters would be a good idea.

Uhm, I just stated that I idea, you just changed it around.
It wouldn't be fair for them to just die. I wanted them to just get slower and weaker as the bar dwindles, but I don't think Tyhm wants to do that.

brock128
07-03-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK


Uhm, I just stated that I idea, you just changed it around.
It wouldn't be fair for them to just die. I wanted them to just get slower and weaker as the bar dwindles, but I don't think Tyhm wants to do that.
Oh yea, it was your idea ^_^ *Sweatdrop*

Idea. They only slow down if it's sunny out (They get burnt to a crisp). Indoors and when it's not sunny (night), they're fine.

Tyhm
07-03-2002, 11:42 PM
Nope. Dun wanna add yet another bar. Plus, again, makes the quests impossible. Until further notice, Zorbi will be just like humans with bubbles in place of their swords, and A to dive once they get the Zorbi Ring. Why do Zorbi need the Zorbi ring to swim and dive? Because I'm too farging lazy to make an entire new branch of quests for Zorbi, and otherwise once they get the glove they can swim wherever the sod they want...Babord, Avalon, Nimda, totally bolloxing the quest and plot system.

Aliens may be the first race. They need the least work and have fun attacks. ^__^

Terazel Tenjin
07-04-2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Nope. Dun wanna add yet another bar. Plus, again, makes the quests impossible. Until further notice, Zorbi will be just like humans with bubbles in place of their swords, and A to dive once they get the Zorbi Ring. Why do Zorbi need the Zorbi ring to swim and dive? Because I'm too farging lazy to make an entire new branch of quests for Zorbi, and otherwise once they get the glove they can swim wherever the sod they want...Babord, Avalon, Nimda, totally bolloxing the quest and plot system.

Aliens may be the first race. They need the least work and have fun attacks. ^__^

A to dive? What if a staff member with *Staff Tool is Zorbi?

And shouldn't HUMANS be first?

Tyhm
07-04-2002, 07:37 AM
Humans are default, therefore already done.

Terazel Tenjin
07-05-2002, 12:31 PM
Yay. Alien race is cool. Can't wait to see Zorbi.

So, will Vampire still be a Nation even though it's a race? Or Gaia?

Tyhm
07-06-2002, 12:31 AM
Vampire-race
Gaia-nation, mostly because I don't want to be bothered with making Elves.

TheFrozenFiend
07-07-2002, 04:46 PM
The classic elements are these (I think)

Death
Life
War
Famine
Fire
Water
Pestilence
Stone

The races are these

Human
Ceres
Alien
Gnome
Vampire
Baddy

So....

This is going from the current magic on classic and how it could change depending on the race...

Human
+ Life = Heals 1 instead of 0.5
- Famine = More chance of their life being halved (15% more chance)

Ceres
+ Water - Doesnt effect them
- Fire - They take double damage when not in water

Alien
+ Pestilance = Doesnt effect them
- Water = When they are turned to ice they also lose 1 heart

Gnome
+ Stone = 50% less chance of becoming confused
- Famine = More chance of their life being halved (15% more chance)

Vampire
+ Death = Kills if opponent is at half life. If not then it takes away 20% of their remaining life.
- Fire = They take double damage

Baddy
+ War = Does double damage
- Life = Damages by 0.5 instead of healing by 0.5

Tyhm
07-07-2002, 11:22 PM
Hm. Could work.

Thinking about changing Famine. As it stands it's kind of weak, it randomly does half damage...war does that reliably, more or less...might have it reliably turn target into a zombie for a few seconds or until hit.

Terazel Tenjin
07-08-2002, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Hm. Could work.

Thinking about changing Famine. As it stands it's kind of weak, it randomly does half damage...war does that reliably, more or less...might have it reliably turn target into a zombie for a few seconds or until hit.

Don't know about zombie...but that list could work. All that needs to be done is to affiliate a race/nation with an elemental type, and the opposite should be apparent. Could stick with the original plan of making Humans literally default, so nothing changes for them.

As it stands, famine is still pretty powerful. But you *could* change the pumpkin into a ghost image or something, stealing away hearts and magic points. Maybe make it do less damage, but steal more magic and make the victim confused for a longer time than stone magic.

JAceves
07-09-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Vampire-race
Gaia-nation, mostly because I don't want to be bothered with making Elves.

Elves are awesome =(

Valder
07-09-2002, 01:26 PM
You should allow them to choose 2 races in order to become half something half something else, or if they pick 2 of the same they are fully that race.

DarkCloud_PK
07-09-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Valder
You should allow them to choose 2 races in order to become half something half something else, or if they pick 2 of the same they are fully that race.

Lizardion/Vampire Hybrids? Eww.
We're not talking about your standard D&D races here, these are vastly different races, I just don't think it'd work out.
Anyway, it'd complicate the weakness and ability system.

Minoc
07-09-2002, 09:59 PM
Just don't make half-vampire. It doesn't make any sense =\

Tyhm
07-09-2002, 10:55 PM
And you know that's exactly why he said it.

If you want to be a half-vampire, play yourself as a half-vampire. Obviously if I give the option of being a vampire and drinking blood or being a halfvamp with all the powers and none of the weaknesses, everyone's gonna opt for halfvamp anyway.

Elves...blah. They're identical to humans anyway, so what's the point? I mean, just humans with different heads.
Maybe I'll classify them as Humanoids. All other unlisted humanoid races are humans, including dwarves and elves and halfelves and....

A human in Gaia is basically an elf anyway. *shrugs*

I'mma have enough problems just getting the 6 mentioned races together and working without adding make-your-own-race's to the mix.

brock128
07-10-2002, 12:42 AM
Elves are faster and use bows.

Dean
07-10-2002, 03:49 AM
You can use bow anyway and the Lizardon shield speeds you up :-P

Terazel Tenjin
07-10-2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
And you know that's exactly why he said it.

If you want to be a half-vampire, play yourself as a half-vampire. Obviously if I give the option of being a vampire and drinking blood or being a halfvamp with all the powers and none of the weaknesses, everyone's gonna opt for halfvamp anyway.

Elves...blah. They're identical to humans anyway, so what's the point? I mean, just humans with different heads.
Maybe I'll classify them as Humanoids. All other unlisted humanoid races are humans, including dwarves and elves and halfelves and....

A human in Gaia is basically an elf anyway. *shrugs*

I'mma have enough problems just getting the 6 mentioned races together and working without adding make-your-own-race's to the mix.

Customization exists simply with the mixture of race and nation, so there should be no problem there. A humanoid classification would be great if that CHANGED anything, but it doesn't, so might as well keep it as human (otherwise, vamps get mixed into it).

I'm just doubtful RPing and warring when Nations go public will mix well. There needs to be enough reasons/perks and a strong sense of what you are doing to bring that about.

Tyhm
07-10-2002, 12:03 PM
I'll work something out.

I'm not supercharging any one race for your PKing entertainment. No halfvamps with the attributes of vamps without the weaknesses ala blade, no elves with all the human attributes plus heightened speed.

JAceves
07-10-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by brock128
Elves are faster and use bows.

They are also more powerful with magic, but suffer physical inferiority.

I don't think they should be ruled out =(

Tyhm
07-11-2002, 12:00 AM
I do, and I'm the one making it, so there.

Physical inferiority? As in they get one less fullheart? That doesn't matter if you got a PK tag anyway...
They take more damage? Messes with PK tags then.
No superhumans, period.

Dark-Dragoon
07-12-2002, 11:17 AM
Just a question, when you introduce all the races/nations, wont you have to reset Classic?

Tyhm
07-12-2002, 10:28 PM
Nope. Those who want to risk their account by switching over to another race are welcome to do so, those who want to stay Human can do that too. It's not so radical a change that I'd need to wipe everyone, because Humans will still exist

TheFrozenFiend
07-12-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Those who want to risk their account by switching over to another race are welcome to do so, those who want to stay Human can do that too.

What about those who want to change race and still not risk their account?

Dark-Dragoon
07-13-2002, 12:34 AM
Then as they say, you're screwed, dude or dudette.
Hmm...Maybe a Ceres dude...i cant decide on what combo to choose... but think of some of them, Vampire Dragoons... and other wierd combonations

Tyhm
07-13-2002, 12:58 AM
If you want to be an alien (which I may have done this weekend, depending), you have to accept the fact that there's a risk it'll break, leaving you as a slow human with no sword for a while. Naturally I'm gonna work at avoiding that, but if you want a guarantee of stability, stay human.

Testing indicates Aliens can't do a lot of the quests currently, I imagine even after fixing that, more problems will crop up....

brock128
07-13-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
I do, and I'm the one making it, so there.

Physical inferiority? As in they get one less fullheart? That doesn't matter if you got a PK tag anyway...
They take more damage? Messes with PK tags then.
No superhumans, period.
Maybe they can't use swords? Just bows? If that were the case, they'd need to start with 99 arrows and have a huge arrow stock... It may mess things up. Just a thought.

Maybe they shouldn't be faster. Maybe just more magical, and have some downside.

Man, balance is hard :(

Dean
07-13-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by brock128

Maybe they can't use swords? Just bows? If that were the case, they'd need to start with 99 arrows and have a huge arrow stock... It may mess things up. Just a thought.

Then next to no people would join.

Kaimetsu
07-14-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Testing indicates Aliens can't do a lot of the quests currently, I imagine even after fixing that, more problems will crop up.... Grim Squeaker:

If it's the conveyor belt program it can just be changed to that the conveyor belts only affect them while they're not moving. (Since they're jumping around, they'd also not touch the conveyor belt, thus not being moved by it)

Tyhm
07-14-2002, 11:52 PM
Yeah. I set it up a while ago so that instead of moving the player back a constant value (which was deadly at best), it moves them back a percentage of their normal speed. Downside is, while they have no trouble with Conveyer Belts, this means they'll never be able to do the Ninji Tower quest - which is just as well, what would an Alien want with a Katana anyway?

So I'll add an underground quest for the aliens, or just cut that quest for them entirely, give them the L2 Beam and send them down the Ninji Run. Or just make alternate quests for aliens...I'd only have to redo like that one room, that way...and the top of the tower, so that the Red Katana of Ilzude is an inventory item instead of a sword, and they trade that in to the emperors for the beam...that'd work best. But first I gotta finish my homework. :D

Dark-Dragoon
07-15-2002, 04:37 AM
w00t. Aliens roxor. Nice job clasic team. If you needed someone who does gani's i would help. Looks great. I am SO gonna be on classic all the time.

Kaimetsu
07-15-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Tyhm
Yeah. I set it up a while ago so that instead of moving the player back a constant value (which was deadly at best), it moves them back a percentage of their normal speed. Downside is, while they have no trouble with Conveyer Belts, this means they'll never be able to do the Ninji Tower quest - which is just as well, what would an Alien want with a Katana anyway?

So I'll add an underground quest for the aliens, or just cut that quest for them entirely, give them the L2 Beam and send them down the Ninji Run. Or just make alternate quests for aliens...I'd only have to redo like that one room, that way...and the top of the tower, so that the Red Katana of Ilzude is an inventory item instead of a sword, and they trade that in to the emperors for the beam...that'd work best. But first I gotta finish my homework. :D Grim Squeaker:

Great. ^_^
Could I, in that case, know how to detect a player's speed? I'll probably be needing it.

Dark-Dragoon
07-15-2002, 11:51 PM
Oh yeah, Tyhm, just a suggestion, but when you charge up to the laser with aliens, why would you use a gun if you were charging up? maybe he should fire it out of his hands or something. And fire it straight too. Right now they fire kind of to the side.

Tyhm
07-16-2002, 12:06 AM
...because there's only one charge cell, which is used for Beam Saber or Cannon (or Radio when it's done), depending on how fully charged it is?

They fire it based on the cannon's position in the gani, it looks stupid centered.

Detecting player speed: if(!this.oldx=playerx||!this.oldy=playery){
this.xspeed=playerx-this.oldx;
this.yspeed=playery-this.oldy;
this.oldx=playerx;
this.oldy=playery;
}

Seems to be a bug when you hit the walls at an angle, though. *shrugs*

Dark-Dragoon
07-16-2002, 12:26 AM
Maybe you misinterpreted what i meant, why would they charge energy around their hands and then use a cannon? if it needs to be un-centered you should still just not use the cannon...Oh well, just my opinion. The opinion of the Classic player with p2p. well...acually more of a 2k1 but nothing happens there anymore

Tyhm
07-16-2002, 01:32 AM
I tried it without the cannon. It looked lame and DBZish. So now I say that Lunari charge power in their body and use the Beam Saber and Cannon to channel it.

Dark-Dragoon
07-16-2002, 01:41 AM
But now its gundam-ish
;) Nah, its good. I guess it would be DBZ-ish. I cant wait for Call Strike. Oh yeah Thym, one more persistant buggering from me.
Humans-base for all
Zorbi-Anti-Pk/PPK
Baddys- This i dont know
Lunaris- Questing (can revive on death point)
Vampires- PK
Gnome- No clue
Can you fill in Gnome and Baddies?

Tyhm
07-16-2002, 02:00 AM
Baddy - PK
Gnome - quest

They're just more moderate forms.

Dark-Dragoon
07-16-2002, 02:26 AM
Ah...That makes sense now.

freddyfox
07-16-2002, 09:41 AM
Just a suggestion, could you be able to charge while walking ala Megaman? Perhaps make it a side quest for the lunaris to replace one of the human quests that they can't do. To offset it, maybe it would take longer to charge up while moving then while standing still. I dunno.

Dark-Dragoon
07-16-2002, 10:06 AM
Thats a good idea.

Tyhm
07-16-2002, 10:18 AM
Hm. As a side quest, yeah, perhaps. Currently though, any quests that humans can do that they can't, they must do anyway to get the appropriate equivalent attack...it would probably be easy enough to code it so they can always charge while walking, perhaps they walk slower too...the whole point of charging is that they're stupid-vulnerable, so it's easy for humans to stop a gaggle of Lunari who are all charging Lunaris Strikes...

freddyfox
07-16-2002, 01:05 PM
The reasoning behind the walking charge thing is that Lunaris are, well, kinda underbalanced, in my view anyways.

They're a bit slower then all the other races (I think?) and while the beam saber is longer range, there's a 0.4 pause before the sword actually swings, so any good human can jump around and immolate them. The zal cannon and the lunaris strike are nice, but again, they take way too long to charge up and are easily avoided. I suppose what I'm picking at is that they have no real strengths against anyone, but a lot of weaknesses. (If there's something else in this thread about lunaris getting armor or better weapons or something like that, then ignore this.)

Minoc
07-16-2002, 04:52 PM
Lunaris are bad for spars =\
If a human hits you once when you are Lunaris, you have no way to defend yourselves.
Also, for some reason, the special Lunaris skills crash some people \=

Tyhm
07-17-2002, 12:33 AM
On my to-do list:
Increase the beam saber's power to 1+playerswordpower (I did this once, but hitobjects or hitplayer automatically divides by 2 and I can never remember which)
Automatically discharge whatever you have when hit
Figure out WHY the painfully simple effects lag people - gani? Script? I'll run some tests.
And yeah, I guess walk SLOWLY when charging. If you can walk normally and charge, there's essentially no drawbacks to being more powerful and with longer range. =_=

They suck in spars. It was intentional. They're explorers, not PKers. Cope.

freddyfox
07-17-2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm

They suck in spars. It was intentional. They're explorers, not PKers. Cope.

So, weapons are more intentionally for baddy slaughtering then player slaughtering?

Dark-Dragoon
07-17-2002, 12:59 AM
Well it's all looking good Tyhm, i hope you get Zorbi's up soon. Whatever thier names are, zormi, zorbi, zormite, bah...

Qwert616
07-17-2002, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by freddyfox


So, weapons are more intentionally for baddy slaughtering then player slaughtering?

Yeah, I think so.

The beam sword, or whatever, is great for taking out large numbers of baddies at a time. Plus, it can chop through things like rocks, pots, stakes, and bushes in no time, which makes traveling through some dungeons a little easier.

The charge cannon is good against most baddies, but it is kind of hard to get the 5 seconds to charge it in the middle of a fight. I usually use it to shoot through bricks or over holes at baddies that I haven't really reached yet. There are also some bosses that it was usefull for as well.

Tyhm
07-17-2002, 04:37 AM
Yes, intended for baddy slaughtering, and Zorbi are probably going to be next after Vampire, since Vampires don't need any unique ganis. Got a lot of accrued fixes to handle first, naturally.

Dark-Dragoon
07-17-2002, 05:09 AM
i hope the timeline is like this
lunaris------vampire--zorbi
Or else vampires will slaughter many many innocent graalians before the Zorbi can bubble em. ;)

Tyhm
07-17-2002, 06:53 AM
Vampires really aren't that superpowerful. They take doubledamage from magic, and I'm wiring them to catch fire when exploded.

In other news:
Elves - G2K1 bodies? I'll ask if we can use them, they seem to be fairly open-source.
Sælei? See the related thread, I doubt G2K1's ever gonna use them with Kai gone.

Minoc
07-17-2002, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Dragoon
Well it's all looking good Tyhm, i hope you get Zorbi's up soon. Whatever thier names are, zormi, zorbi, zormite, bah...
Fish? :P

freddyfox
07-17-2002, 12:53 PM
Vampires are out, soooo...

-Could the dash be made sort of a movement speed adder rather then a warper? It would also make it slightly more fair to non-vamp players, since they could avoid blind teleport strikes.

DragonX2
07-17-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by freddyfox
Vampires are out, soooo...

-Could the dash be made sort of a movement speed adder rather then a warper? It would also make it slightly more fair to non-vamp players, since they could avoid blind teleport strikes.

It's already fair, we can't warp around in outside levels (I wish we could :\). Only in inside levels we can warp around (move very fast around the screen).

Minoc
07-17-2002, 05:01 PM
Vampires taking double damage from magic? Doesn't make sense.
There could be another way to balance them. If vampires don't drink blood, they die, threfore there should be a health drop once in a while if the vampire doesn't kill.

Dean
07-17-2002, 05:48 PM
Everytime I change to a vampire and everytime I disconnect the species sets me to human.

AlexH
07-17-2002, 05:54 PM
How do I select my race?
I've read a few posts in this thread and it sounds rather interesting.

Dean
07-17-2002, 06:05 PM
Say "Change race" anywhere on Classic

Dark-Dragoon
07-17-2002, 11:41 PM
Ah, vampires are out. Excellent.

Tyhm
07-17-2002, 11:47 PM
Screwy. Shouldn't be resetting your race...
Sliding superfast verses dashing superfast is kind of irrelevant, it all takes place in the same cycle anyway.
Health drop for not drinking blood won't work, it'd ruin all the quests.
They can warp around outside at night.

Anyone have valid balance suggestions? Besides the vampires saying "WTS? I shouldn't be vulnerable to magic and catching fire, I should gain health from it because I am Alucard!" and the non-vampires saying "WTS? Vampires should be slow and weak so I can PK them easier!"

They catch fire when exploded, take doubledamage from magic, and gain 1 heart every AP drop (since I can't directly detect playerkills). They can dash around inside or at night outside, max of 20 tiles, with solid wall detection scripted. Anyone have an objective opinion on their balance in this current state, and suggestions to how to remedy it?

freddyfox
07-18-2002, 12:03 AM
I think the main problem is that outside in daylight, they're just normal humans with a buttload of weaknesses, and inside or at night, they're normal humans with a buttload of weaknesses who keep running into things because dash is tricky to control and you often end up running into someone's sword.

DragonX2
07-18-2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by freddyfox
I think the main problem is that outside in daylight, they're just normal humans with a buttload of weaknesses, and inside or at night, they're normal humans with a buttload of weaknesses who keep running into things because dash is tricky to control and you often end up running into someone's sword.

I wish we (Vampires) could buy sunglasses or something so we can dash around during the day :\ Also when you dash you know how it makes like an image of you, why not just do the whole image from the starting point to the finishing point where he stops at. I would also like to turn into a bat and maybe fly around (over water and things) during night :]

GrappaRoo
07-18-2002, 12:38 AM
I don't mind the dash but I think it goes too far a distance and it should have a gani (that all can see) when it is performed because it gets confusing. You could be fighting them and all of a sudden they dissappear, you'd think they warped or disconnected...And WHERE'S my Glub race?!

brock128
07-18-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by DragonX2


I wish we (Vampires) could buy sunglasses or something so we can dash around during the day :\ Also when you dash you know how it makes like an image of you, why not just do the whole image from the starting point to the finishing point where he stops at. I would also like to turn into a bat and maybe fly around (over water and things) during night :]
That would make it WAY too powerful. No! >_<

Dark-Dragoon
07-18-2002, 01:21 AM
make it so vamp dash leaves a trail. sometimes its like....impossible to find them.

Tyhm
07-18-2002, 08:31 AM
Vampdash trail, full heal on AP drop (which they can only do so often, usually at the loss of their own life repeatedly), burn 50% of the time, burn 3/4 as long (1/2 longer than humans do)...I guess we'll see how that works out.

Bortlad
07-18-2002, 04:27 PM
Starting on fire whenever someone hits you with a sword is kind of a big weakness...

Nightmareangel
07-18-2002, 06:50 PM
Just an idea...but Tyhm...maybe you could make it where life magic damages vamps, while death magic can heal them.

Also...the new vamp dash looks like you're sliding on ice...can this be fixed?

Valder
07-18-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Nightmareangel
Just an idea...but Tyhm...maybe you could make it where life magic damages vamps, while death magic can heal them.

Also...the new vamp dash looks like you're sliding on ice...can this be fixed?

actually its more realistic like this. It has the effect that you are moving so fast it's hard to stop.

Also, Tyhm, you should give humans a MAJOR advantage magic wise seeing as they have no real strenghts

Kaimetsu
07-18-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Valder


actually its more realistic like this. It has the effect that you are moving so fast it's hard to stop.

Also, Tyhm, you should give humans a MAJOR advantage magic wise seeing as they have no real strenghts Grim Squeaker:

Actually the point of the humans is that while they have no actual strengths they also have no weaknesses.

Valder
07-18-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Kaimetsu
Grim Squeaker:

Actually the point of the humans is that while they have no actual strengths they also have no weaknesses.

well if you consider that all the other races have special things then humans do have a disadvantage that they cannot do anything to defend from them...

freddyfox
07-18-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Valder


well if you consider that all the other races have special things then humans do have a disadvantage that they cannot do anything to defend from them...

But you have no weaknesses, so the other races have no way to easily kill you, unlike vamps, lunaris, etc.

Valder
07-18-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by freddyfox


But you have no weaknesses, so the other races have no way to easily kill you, unlike vamps, lunaris, etc.

Then they should get a slight power disadvantage to compensate for the magic advantage...

Minoc
07-18-2002, 10:18 PM
Full heal is a tool for newbies usually and burn 50% of the time makes vampires the suckiest race.
If you wanna make it balanced, just make a 0.5 heart drop every 20 seconds that player don't kill in =\

Minoc
07-18-2002, 10:22 PM
If you intend to keep the vampire burning at least cancel it in indoors areas and spar rooms \=
Also, maybe there should just be a weakness in daytime, such as double hearts drop, or slow down, just not fire+\

AlexH
07-18-2002, 10:24 PM
Off topic but does anyone know why classic lags really bad for me in all the outside levels.
The inside ones are fine but outside ones lag terribly. :(

Dean
07-18-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by AlexH
Off topic but does anyone know why classic lags really bad for me in all the outside levels.
The inside ones are fine but outside ones lag terribly. :(

Might be the Day/Night NPC or it could be a Lunaris nearby

Tyhm
07-19-2002, 12:08 AM
Need to figure out what I'm doing wrong with explosions. Obviously they were not intended to burst into flames when NOT exploded. 0.5 heart drop every 20 seconds of not-killing would render practically every quest impossible. I have to give them SOME weaknesses, and SOME strengths, but if you people can't even agree on whether they're over or underpowered I'll take them out utterly and you can just cope with the fact that you, the players, killed it.

brock128
07-19-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
0.5 heart drop every 20 seconds of not-killing would render practically every quest impossible.
Maybe make Indoors not have this effect?

albus777
07-19-2002, 02:11 AM
That lifedrop idea is kinda dumb. If it were like that nobody would play vampire.

Minoc
07-19-2002, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by brock128

Maybe make Indoors not have this effect?
Yeah, this is the best solution :P
Originally posted by albus777

That lifedrop idea is kinda dumb. If it were like that nobody would play vampire.
Nobody wants to play as a vampire now because the vampires get burned and they can't pk +|

Tyhm
07-19-2002, 04:22 AM
Pity your primary concern is how easy Tyhm's willing to make it for you to butcher newbies.

50% chance of getting burned when exploded, not burned when slashed...yeah, I guess that'll work. If they come up still as The Ultimate PK Race (which isn't so bad, but there has to be balance), I'll give them a risk of bursting into flames while straying from the walls outside during the day. Not as severe though, weak flames, head back to the wall and they'll go out pretty quick.

TheFrozenFiend
07-19-2002, 04:34 AM
Vampires

Advantages

If they use the death spell then it kills if opponent is at half life. If not then it takes away 20% of their remaining life.
Blood Suck (passive). When damage is done to an opponent (through whatever means) the vampire gains 1.0. health if they are within 10 tiles of them.
Hide In Shadows(weapon). Only works during night. If they attack they become visible. (Its pretty much an escape weapon) Also baddies, with the exception of bosses, won't see them. Other vampires can still see them.


Disadvantages

Fire spell does double damage
When outside during daylight they move 15% slower and take double damage to all spells apart from death.
Gradually lose health (0.5 every 30 seconds) while in holy places.



I think thats pretty even.
I have other ideas for vampire advantages and disadvantages if you want to hear them. I don't know how many advantages/disadvantages you want for each though.

Dark-Dragoon
07-19-2002, 04:40 AM
-tff's thing-
Um...No.

GrappaRoo
07-19-2002, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by brock128

Maybe make Indoors not have this effect?

That makes complete sense since it isn't really sunlight. I agree with that.

Tyhm is sure full of hate today. :rolleyes:

albus777
07-19-2002, 09:16 AM
This is Locke Cole, not Albus.

With the Vampire's bloodlust, could you make it so that they gain 0.5 health back instead of a whole heart because the vampire's bloodlust advantage doesn't seem to take effect until after there opponent is dead and there for doesn't really help. It might when nations is up and Nation Wars start up, but with only 100 people on during mid day not very big wars are going to occur. And now that you can't attack while dashing, Vampires really don't have any advantages that help out during the battle.

Dark-Dragoon
07-19-2002, 10:59 PM
No more attack while dashing? Yuckor. Back to being a lunarian.

freddyfox
07-20-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Dragoon
No more attack while dashing? Yuckor. Back to being a lunarian.

You can still shoot arrows while dashing, which is actually pretty useful.

Dark-Dragoon
07-20-2002, 01:41 AM
But i dont use npcs.

TheFrozenFiend
07-20-2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Dragoon
But i dont use npcs.

Then you wouldnt be dashing in the first place. :p :rolleyes:

DragonX2
07-20-2002, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Dark-Dragoon
No more attack while dashing? Yuckor. Back to being a lunarian.

You can still attack, just doesn't show sword slashing.

albus777
07-20-2002, 06:26 AM
Locke Cole:

Further testing shows that DragonX is right, but still think about it, with they I suggested earlier, if you have 9 hearts with a Lvl. 3 sword and your fighting someone with the same stuff and you hit them three times you have only gained 1.5 health back, so it wouldn't be that big of an advantage.

Dark-Dragoon
07-20-2002, 07:51 AM
I mean NPCW's that you use D to use.

albus777
07-20-2002, 11:19 AM
Locke Cole:

Oh and tyhm, Dark Cloud mention something about hats in the Nations thread and how he wanted hats to represent ranking in the nation... so that means there are going to be ranks in the Nations? And if so, how do you plan to select everyones rank?

GrappaRoo
07-20-2002, 12:16 PM
I lub candy. :cool:

Tyhm
07-20-2002, 01:29 PM
Wrong thread for it, but nation ranks (and subsequent hat rights) will be based on hours spent online in that nation.

46and2
07-20-2002, 07:25 PM
I'm not seeing the point of magic being the vamp's weakness, seeing as nobody uses magic for sparring, pking, defense etc, it won't make much of a difference, plus magic takes awhile to cast, with vampires being the fastest race, why not just take away their level 3 shield? This slows them down, making them have to rely on dash more, I don't really want a non l3shield vamp, but it makes a bit more sense then double damage magic. Or perhaps, the more holy of nations gives off an aura that causes a sword to double damage. Rather then making vamps vulernable they should only be vulnerable to the good classes. nations should be split, good evil. That a way the alliances are already there, it's just based on player agreements etc. Just a suggestion though.

-Masa.

DragonX2
07-20-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by 46and2
I'm not seeing the point of magic being the vamp's weakness, seeing as nobody uses magic for sparring, pking, defense etc, it won't make much of a difference, plus magic takes awhile to cast, with vampires being the fastest race, why not just take away their level 3 shield? This slows them down, making them have to rely on dash more, I don't really want a non l3shield vamp, but it makes a bit more sense then double damage magic. Or perhaps, the more holy of nations gives off an aura that causes a sword to double damage. Rather then making vamps vulernable they should only be vulnerable to the good classes. nations should be split, good evil. That a way the alliances are already there, it's just based on player agreements etc. Just a suggestion though.

-Masa.

Vampires cannot use dash in daylight and we walk as fast as humans. If we walk slower like Lunaris well then I will just go human because I would hate to walk slow. I wish Vampires could ultimately walk faster (not dash, walk). Also at night we should be able to hide in shadows (maybe it's automatically activated or something) that would be fun (this idea was already mentioned). I have level 3 shield but for some reason I walk slow like I don't have it and also when I block stuff it doesn't reflect which it should if I have level 3 shield :\ If vampires could dash anywhere (with no limitations) that would be great. I mean that's the least that could happen, we already get hurt by fire (which is really annoying :\) and so giving us the ability to dash anywhere, well it would be great :]

DarkCloud_PK
07-20-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by DragonX2


Vampires cannot use dash in daylight and we walk as fast as humans. If we walk slower like Lunaris well then I will just go human because I would hate to walk slow. I wish Vampires could ultimately walk faster (not dash, walk). Also at night we should be able to hide in shadows (maybe it's automatically activated or something) that would be fun (this idea was already mentioned). I have level 3 shield but for some reason I walk slow like I don't have it and also when I block stuff it doesn't reflect which it should if I have level 3 shield :\ If vampires could dash anywhere (with no limitations) that would be great. I mean that's the least that could happen, we already get hurt by fire (which is really annoying :\) and so giving us the ability to dash anywhere, well it would be great :]

Eh, that's because your shield is level 1, I checked on RC, you must have dropped it at one point or another.
There is a weapons shop above the Battle Arena in Graal City, you can buy your shield back there.

As for Masa, no, that would be too weak as you are looking as battles always being sword fights. They are already flammable, but OH NO, you need to use NPCs to catch them on fire. In order to have fair battles, the Graal players are going to have to incorperate NPCWs into their battles, sad, but true. NPCs aren't really made for you guys to never use. So, in other words, fighting style is going to have to change to adapt to Races and Nations. I don't get where you think magic is slow to cast either, it's one button and it fires.



If Tyhm wants to be nice to the PKs and sparrers, he could make it so all Race and Nation powers and weaknesses are disabled in Sparring Zones and Angel Clan, but I don't see it happening.

Tyhm
07-21-2002, 12:51 AM
'course not, what fun would that be! ^_~

Seriously though, let's take a look at it logic-style.

Lunaris. They don't have a sword. Then they go into a sparring room, and suddenly they have a regular sword and move at regular speed. The fudge?

Vampire. Suddenly they're immune to fire and they can't dash. Um.

Well, I guess I could do something about making Vampires regular Humans in sparring zones, but Lunaris would just be weird. Likewise for Gnome, Baddy, Zorbi...

If you want to spar a vampire on your terms, use a torch.

DragonX2
07-21-2002, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by DarkCloud_PK

Eh, that's because your shield is level 1, I checked on RC, you must have dropped it at one point or another.
There is a weapons shop above the Battle Arena in Graal City, you can buy your shield back there.


Are you serious!?
All this time staff have been lying to me then.
I remember asking 3 staff with RC a while ago and they said I had level 3. What a bunch of liars :\

Minoc
07-23-2002, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by DragonX2


Are you serious!?
All this time staff have been lying to me then.
I remember asking 3 staff with RC a while ago and they said I had level 3. What a bunch of liars :\
Maybe you dropped it AFTER asking :/

DarkCloud_PK
07-23-2002, 03:31 AM
Eh, maybe Tyhm could add shield power as a profile variable.

Tyhm
07-23-2002, 03:58 AM
Nope, playershieldpower isn't a default and it only takes strings.

DarkCloud_PK
07-23-2002, 07:37 AM
Bubble is way too abused and powerful now. Some Zorbi kid bubbled me and followed me around bubbling me until I eventually died from it, without giving me a chance of fighting back. I thought maybe there could be like a system like Lunaris, only faster, where you charge your bubble wand for like a second, then let go to bubble someone(you could charge while walking), then if you released before charging, you'd swing your bubble wand, causing .5 damage if you land a hit. Or you could have it so you'd bubble and then wait a second or two to get another bubble charge, then if you fired without fully charging back up, you'd swing your wand. Having it as infinite bubbles that do damage at close range ,however, doesn't give people a chance to fight back unless your Zorbi is horridly slow or outnumbered.

Tyhm
07-23-2002, 10:35 AM
Noted. Told you guys it was a 20%er. It's only supposed to hurt if it hits you and you're already in a bubble (and then for 1/2 swordpower, but full damage to NPCs) Clearly it isn't doing that.

BLOOD_kane
07-26-2002, 05:04 AM
im waiting for the baddy race...

Dark-Dragoon
08-03-2002, 10:43 AM
So is anything new happening? the new races forum was crazy for a while, then it died. Classic got anything new?

Tyhm
08-04-2002, 10:03 AM
I'm a bit swamped with finals, but right now it's primarily balancing. It's gonna take me a couple weeks to make a Baddy version for every conceivable Human sprite ever...

TLG_WL_mechman
08-06-2002, 01:18 PM
Slwing up races is overused,
we think we are giging disavandatges but theyre all equal now since they're all slowed up..
I think non slow races should be made faster instead of the oposite (slow races being made slow).

Tyhm
08-06-2002, 11:28 PM
I know it's a strain, but could you try posting in SOME HUMAN LANGUAGE?!?
English, French, I don't care which, but in neither language IS "GIGING" A WORD!!!

Besides. The only RELEASED slowed race is Lunaris. Baddies will also be slowed, when they're ready. The rest go at normal speed. Vampires can dash, which I suppose ammounts to a speed up.

TLG_WL_mechman
08-07-2002, 01:31 AM
huuuh a "gig" is some kind of stupid dance in quebec (so giging would be the verb for somebody dancing that dance? o.O) anyway it wasnt what i meant(so the word does exist)

Usually when I see words like that i look at the letter that makes the word look strange and look on the keyboard near that letter, that was oubviously a typo and the word it was suposed to be is "giving".

And osrry for the typos i was writing fast.

Well while i read the message (12 pages long couldnt read it to the end so i must have missed some things) well where I was at, most of the races were said to be slowed up.

o yah and Lunari are scouts, and scouts are usually fast cause they're meant to cover a larger area in a small amount of time.

Dean
08-07-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by TLG_WL_mechman
huuuh a "gig" is some kind of stupid dance in quebec (so giging would be the verb for somebody dancing that dance? o.O) anyway it wasnt what i meant(so the word does exist)

Usually when I see words like that i look at the letter that makes the word look strange and look on the keyboard near that letter, that was oubviously a typo and the word it was suposed to be is "giving".

And osrry for the typos i was writing fast.

Well while i read the message (12 pages long couldnt read it to the end so i must have missed some things) well where I was at, most of the races were said to be slowed up.

o yah and Lunari are scouts, and scouts are usually fast cause they're meant to cover a larger area in a small amount of time.

The word is "gigue"

And for the Lunaris as scouts, they may be fast on Lunaris but how would you explain the gravity problem?

TLG_WL_mechman
08-07-2002, 11:49 AM
¸Huh, yah there's that gravity thing. But scouts are scouts tho, when youd train a scout i guess you woudlnt make it (or train it)
to be good to explore the terrains you'Ve already explored instead of being good to explore the terrain you WANT to explore.
I mean whats the point, lol.
For that gravity problem there could be a gravity suppressor you may need to recharge or something? a little like the Zorbis "drying up" thing.

The word is "gigue"¸
Yah but saying someone is "giguing" would sound weird ... i'll check out whats the name in english (if theres an english name for it lol)

Tyhm
08-07-2002, 12:04 PM
Lunari are essentially big heavy powerful robots. Since I can't make them any bigger than they are and I can't really enforce that they're robots, they're just heavy and powerful. Meaning they don't bounce around on the moon and they move slower when crossing expanses off the moon. Meaning they are, in fact, slower. I could write them in such a way that they have special magnetic boots that allow them to adapt to any gravity and walk normally on the moon and on Graal, but that would unbalance things more than a little. I could script things in such a way that they move at normal speed and everyone else is twice as fast, but that's why people avoid the moon, and besides which I resolved Humans would not be changed in any way, shape or form.

brock128
08-07-2002, 10:40 PM
The summon spaceship attack is WAY too underpowered for it's charge time. Some ideas to make it nicer...
1. Make the pod thing carriable (If the player gets damage, the pod gets thrown and also gets damaged, or somthing...)
2. Make the spaceships come a bit faster?

Dark-Dragoon
08-07-2002, 11:29 PM
Oo, third attack is up? *hates destiny pyramid, making him unable to get lv3 hammer/shovel and therefore level 3 sword*
Nutbunnies

DarkCloud_PK
08-07-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by brock128
The summon spaceship attack is WAY too underpowered for it's charge time. Some ideas to make it nicer...
1. Make the pod thing carriable (If the player gets damage, the pod gets thrown and also gets damaged, or somthing...)
2. Make the spaceships come a bit faster?

Spaceship time is fine the way it is, could make them throwable, but what is the point really? Since the attack is so powerful, the little pod thing is meant to be destroyed so players don't get nuked as much, the timing on it is nice(with sword, it takes until the spaceships fly overhead to get rid of it, it's a little faster for projectile weapons). Anyway, if the Lunaris wants to protect his pod, he can always fight off the players trying to kill it.

Tyhm
08-08-2002, 05:26 AM
Trouble with carryable pods (not that I think it's a bad idea) - what if they're thrown inside? If they're thrown in the water, instant destruction, simple...but when they're carried, the script is frozen, someone could carry the radio forever really...

I should set it up to work inside...the spaceships don't come, but the whole room shakes as it's bombed "outside"