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View Full Version : Treatise on corruption and the point of this forum


Tyhm
11-01-2001, 12:59 AM
It is my assertion that there are 3 factors that lead to corruption, which are too often lumped into one, though they are unique of themselves and the distinction is of great import.
1) Not caring what's right for Graal
2) Not knowing what's right for Graal
3) Not listening to those that know

As a result there are numerous types of corrupt admins. There are those guilty of the first, who have no business holding any power in this game; if you don't care about what's good for the game, get out.
There are those who care, but don't know what's right. These are the bumbling but well-meaning admins, people like (often) me, and even Antago and Lycia. However, there's a further distinction in the Bumbling Admin pile:
Those who don't listen. This is the primary complaint about former admins: They want what's best for Graal, so their heart's in the right place, but they don't know what's best; only what they think is best, and nobody can tell them otherwise.
Fortunately, there are very few that don't listen at all...those that don't listen at all, mercifully, don't stay long.
So we see now that the majority of the corrupt admins are, in fact, just ill-informed. Solution: just teach them better. That's what these forums are for. Between the lot of us we know what Graal needs, and what the Graalians just want. Taking player input is the hardest part of any admin's job however; too often we recieve bogus reports, complaints that do not echo the sentiments of Graal's majority, and advice that, while popular, is ultimately detrimental. Take any given sitcom where there's a boy and a girl that never quite get together. Everyone wants them to, and everyone sends in letters asking the writers to do it, but once they do, show over.

Thoughts? Am I making any sense here?

Xythar
11-01-2001, 01:07 AM
Very much sense, indeed. Excluding the part where you described Lycia as "well-meaning."

Faheria_Admin
11-01-2001, 01:08 AM
There is nothing wrong with Lycia. She is nice if you get ot know her.

wark2
11-01-2001, 01:11 AM
Yes, great words from a legendary graalian : Tyhm!
Well i think you make sense! The corrupt admins arent just ruining the staffs lives, their ruining the gameplay for graalians, and on the web site it says : "You will not be permitted to ruin the gameplay for other player, if you do, action will be carried out, and maybe even severly!"

ZanderX
11-01-2001, 02:25 AM
You have good points and I understood what you said...

cds96
11-01-2001, 03:33 AM
So very true but you left out

4. To much power to quick. which is why im banned

Antago
11-01-2001, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
These are the bumbling but well-meaning admins, people like (often) me, and even Antago and Lycia

Don't know what's right? I don't just go and do things you know..? I usually ask first and get opinions.. and then in the case of TrueHeaT's act of corruption (when he deleted the thread with the poll of opinions), it can lead to confusion.

Bomies and Graal2001 were done without what Graal wanted.
Why? Because it was a new server. Stefan asked me to work on it with him, and we figured that if people didn't like what we were doing, they can just easily not pay for an account and stay away.

Simple as that.

I did not, however, mold Graal Classic into the horror it is today.
Well, I don't know if it's cleaned up.. I would much rather not check.
I sure do hope it has been... however.

Graal Classic is the classic.. it really does sadden people to see what it has become.

You, Tyhm, should throw the whole thing out and let it become a history. Then you can move on... to bigger and better things.

Antago
11-01-2001, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by wark2
Yes, great words from a legendary graalian : Tyhm!
Well i think you make sense! The corrupt admins arent just ruining the staffs lives, their ruining the gameplay for graalians, and on the web site it says : "You will not be permitted to ruin the gameplay for other player, if you do, action will be carried out, and maybe even severly!"

Legendary? Hm.. not yet anyways.

Antago
11-01-2001, 03:53 AM
You should also remove Destiny. It is unneeded.

I started that thing in 1.1.. the whole world is spreadout with 3 different versions.

It went to hell when I decided to stop scripting in 1.2 and specialized in graphics.

I couldn't script a turtle these days if you payed me to.

evilive
11-01-2001, 03:56 AM
Classic was great when there was less than 100 people online at the max. Now it's turned horrible with the account reset and the entier Crystal Tears or whatnot. Plus there's a bunch of bugs too...... AND they ruined Destiny (My fav place) and Big City Isle (:( All under water?!)

Any ways, I also wish that the entiere Story Line that was going to put into G2k1 was still around, with the wandering around to temples to turn from Bomy to Human and vice versa. It would have been much nicer.

:)

Tyhm
11-01-2001, 04:20 AM
I've done what I've felt was necessary, with as little interference and as much player input as I could manage. Destiny has not been removed; the tiling of the levels themselves aren't so bad. The houses I would never have accepted though, and so have been "exploded". I've basically given the ruins to the Game Coordinators, they might rename it, they might not...for all intents and purposes though, Destiny's gone, it's not what it was. Sorry if you don't like it Gonmon, but them's the breaks. More people is: GUESS WHAT; A GOOD THING! If you liked it better when it was 100 people, fine. If you make an effort to recapture that era, you're not doing what's best for Graal. I think we can all agree that Graal's continued existence is a good thing; for it to continue to exist requires income, income requires upgraded accounts, which requires new players. Anyone who thinks otherwise, I'd be thrilled to learn your theories for how Graal can continue to exist ad infinitum without any income at all; how you intend to pay for the server, to pay Stefan enough to keep him in Macaroni & Cheese, also to keep him from getting a full-time job with a software manufacturer, how you intend to pay for the bandwidth, the electricity...
Heras were a necessary evil. I admit, they're not simple or pretty or practical on the surface; I made the image myself in about five mintues, and the script is laughable but airtight. As I keep explaining though, you can't move a fullheart, and you can't remove a fullheart. Once I place a fullheart chest, it's there forever; if I move it one tile to the left, its a NEW fullheart, and players can get it again, everything's messed up, and there has to be an account wipe before things return to a level of fairness.
I think we can all agree account wipes are bad things.
Big City sucked rocks. It was a square. Just awful. I hadn't heard a single proponent for it (excluding Bonnie & Clyde) until I sank it, just a lot of complainers. You look at the submitters; "I want this in level15.graal" "How about Big City?" "NO!"
Regarding the bugs, I concur. I'm going to be going back to primarily bugfixing, perfecting the levels all the way through to Nimda again and checking the midis especially; I may have a source for some new ones, so that'll be nice. Of course, I can't fix bugs that aren't reported...*meaningful glare*

Antago, you mean well, but we've both done dumb things. Maybe you were taking player input too, and they just lead you astray; players ask for some really destructive things sometimes. "I think you should add the Lizard Sword"; it's what players want, but it's not for the good of Graal. Yeah, yeah, this conversation again, Stefan and Olorin and 99% of Graal agreed with you adding it as the prize to your tower, even all that doesn't make it right. 99% of Graal hates me for Newbie Saint, but it's for the good of Graal; if newbies DON'T die in the first fifteen minutes, they'll keep playing, and if they keep playing they may upgrade. If they die in 2 whacks of the Lizard Sword, they'll stop playing, and won't upgrade. Which means less income, which means the game dies.

Maybe I'm right, maybe you're right. That's what the forum's for. We could bicker about it all day, but we're not going to raise any new issues; you'll take your side, and I'll take mine. It's the other players that make the difference, and not because of what they want for themselves, what they perceive as good for Graal.

The Bomys, incidentally, were a good thing. Though you should give the scripters a smidge more credit for their development, IMHO.

JeffTL
11-01-2001, 05:25 AM
Amen tyhm. Anyway...I think new midis would be good, but alas, I wouldn't probably use them (I'm in the process of overwriting my graal midis with real songs:)).

Antago
11-01-2001, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Tyhm
I've done what I've felt was necessary, with as little interference and as much player input as I could manage. Destiny has not been removed; the tiling of the levels themselves aren't so bad. The houses I would never have accepted though, and so have been "exploded". I've basically given the ruins to the Game Coordinators, they might rename it, they might not...for all intents and purposes though, Destiny's gone, it's not what it was. Sorry if you don't like it Gonmon, but them's the breaks. More people is: GUESS WHAT; A GOOD THING! If you liked it better when it was 100 people, fine. If you make an effort to recapture that era, you're not doing what's best for Graal. I think we can all agree that Graal's continued existence is a good thing; for it to continue to exist requires income, income requires upgraded accounts, which requires new players. Anyone who thinks otherwise, I'd be thrilled to learn your theories for how Graal can continue to exist ad infinitum without any income at all; how you intend to pay for the server, to pay Stefan enough to keep him in Macaroni & Cheese, also to keep him from getting a full-time job with a software manufacturer, how you intend to pay for the bandwidth, the electricity...
Heras were a necessary evil. I admit, they're not simple or pretty or practical on the surface; I made the image myself in about five mintues, and the script is laughable but airtight. As I keep explaining though, you can't move a fullheart, and you can't remove a fullheart. Once I place a fullheart chest, it's there forever; if I move it one tile to the left, its a NEW fullheart, and players can get it again, everything's messed up, and there has to be an account wipe before things return to a level of fairness.
I think we can all agree account wipes are bad things.
Big City sucked rocks. It was a square. Just awful. I hadn't heard a single proponent for it (excluding Bonnie & Clyde) until I sank it, just a lot of complainers. You look at the submitters; "I want this in level15.graal" "How about Big City?" "NO!"
Regarding the bugs, I concur. I'm going to be going back to primarily bugfixing, perfecting the levels all the way through to Nimda again and checking the midis especially; I may have a source for some new ones, so that'll be nice. Of course, I can't fix bugs that aren't reported...*meaningful glare*

Antago, you mean well, but we've both done dumb things. Maybe you were taking player input too, and they just lead you astray; players ask for some really destructive things sometimes. "I think you should add the Lizard Sword"; it's what players want, but it's not for the good of Graal. Yeah, yeah, this conversation again, Stefan and Olorin and 99% of Graal agreed with you adding it as the prize to your tower, even all that doesn't make it right. 99% of Graal hates me for Newbie Saint, but it's for the good of Graal; if newbies DON'T die in the first fifteen minutes, they'll keep playing, and if they keep playing they may upgrade. If they die in 2 whacks of the Lizard Sword, they'll stop playing, and won't upgrade. Which means less income, which means the game dies.

Maybe I'm right, maybe you're right. That's what the forum's for. We could bicker about it all day, but we're not going to raise any new issues; you'll take your side, and I'll take mine. It's the other players that make the difference, and not because of what they want for themselves, what they perceive as good for Graal.

The Bomys, incidentally, were a good thing. Though you should give the scripters a smidge more credit for their development, IMHO.

A smidge more credit? I give 90% credit to Kyle for the scripting, and 10% to Stefan.. though maybe it should be more like 50/50 for them..
Kyle gets 50% credit for bomies too. I made them up, yes.. but when I asked Kyle to work on them with me, we worked for months together.
We had "many" chats in which we designed their behaviors.

Though, when Kyle was done and handed his script to Stefan, I pretty much took the whole project over into my hands again.



Destiny is dead.. it was dead the second I started adding player houses and I quit scripting. Graal then got better with GScript and anything new I made was just a time-bomb waiting to stab some oncoming player in the eye for even being there.

I do not agree with you renaming it.. though.

Faheria_Admin
11-01-2001, 06:57 AM
Graphics > Anything else.

11-01-2001, 07:36 AM
Antago, Tyhm is absolutely right, You mean well but you're not the best one to do everything. Hell, Tyhm has done some dumb things too ::cough::HERA::cough:: but it did make more players stay. Do you know how many people quit because of oldbies killing them as soon as they walked out of the "Brother's House" I think Graal Classic has gotten much better since I started 1 1/2 years ago. I remember the constant PKing that I endured and the first full heart I ever got (The dark forest quest) and the first guild I ever joined (resistance) and I sometimes miss those days of Graal but Tyhm has really brought some sort of quality and storyline to Classic and he should be praised, not critiqued.

BruceLee2000
11-01-2001, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Faheria_Admin
There is nothing wrong with Lycia. She is nice if you get ot know her.

except for that whole cursing, lying, immature, disgusting behavior she has.

another one bites the dust!

Antago
11-01-2001, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by TDK_Admin2
Antago, Tyhm is absolutely right, You mean well but you're not the best one to do everything. Hell, Tyhm has done some dumb things too ::cough::HERA::cough:: but it did make more players stay. Do you know how many people quit because of oldbies killing them as soon as they walked out of the "Brother's House" I think Graal Classic has gotten much better since I started 1 1/2 years ago. I remember the constant PKing that I endured and the first full heart I ever got (The dark forest quest) and the first guild I ever joined (resistance) and I sometimes miss those days of Graal but Tyhm has really brought some sort of quality and storyline to Classic and he should be praised, not critiqued.

I, sadly, have no idea why you are saying this. =/

11-02-2001, 03:43 AM
And I, sadly, want to know why you must come back after saying you quit?

freddyfox
11-02-2001, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by TDK_Admin2
And I, sadly, want to know why you must come back after saying you quit?

Graal is kind of like cigarettes.

Without the damaging side effects.

StraightHustler
11-02-2001, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Faheria_Admin
There is nothing wrong with Lycia. She is nice if you get ot know her.
That is very true.

Jerom
11-02-2001, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by freddyfox


Graal is kind of like cigarettes.

Without the damaging side effects.
Doesn't it say somewhere in the Licensed Agreements that GraalOnline is not responsible for corrupting the minds of children? ;)

grim_squeaker_x
11-02-2001, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by freddyfox


Graal is kind of like cigarettes.

Without the damaging side effects. Don't you mean, worse damaging side effects :)

--

Anyway, if I ever were to become an admin or anything I would probably be repeatedly guilty of #3. Although I don't think that'll happen anytime soon since I'm not interested in working for Graal.

Antago
11-02-2001, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by TDK_Admin2
And I, sadly, want to know why you must come back after saying you quit?

Must? Well, if you word it like that, then you just answered yourself.

However, seeing as how that is not what you meant, I will merely just yell at you with rantings because you apparently think this question is going to hurt me.

*yells at you with rantings* I'm done.

Juron Pilo
11-02-2001, 07:24 AM
ACTUALLY I think Thym has done such a good job that he should stop adding new stuff a sec and just "improve" the existing lvls... =D

Jerom
11-02-2001, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Juron Pilo
he should stop adding new stuff a sec and just "improve" the existing lvls... =D
YES!!!!!!!

Metal-Slug
11-02-2001, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by freddyfox


Graal is kind of like cigarettes.

Without the damaging side effects.
not true, i recently hit my head on my desk while on newmian, resulting in the breaking of my glasses

Tyhm
11-02-2001, 08:56 AM
Yeah, I got a full page of bugfixes to hit today...man, have you guys seen what Floydian's done with Ninji Castle? Amazing...

TrueHeaT
11-02-2001, 09:00 AM
start
classic
over
from
scratch
with
more
pizza
places
and
carryable
things
like
in
1.35
but
with
really
good
levels
and
graphics

Lyndzey
11-02-2001, 09:00 AM
Tyhm has done an excellent job fixing Classic. It isn't a level gen world, so it is a lot harder to fix up and stuff.

Jerom
11-02-2001, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Gspeed2000
I like knowing that there is history to Graal, like that old version of Graal where you see Zol's tavern being built and the large Zardon's castle being built too..

Did I spell Zardon right? @[email protected]
Don't you mean SARDON?

newbie
11-02-2001, 12:36 PM
What Tyhm is pretty much saying, is that all people are corrupt to some extent, but the people who act upon it in their own self-interest are the ones that are going to damage graal in the long run, on the other hand the well-meaning ones; That may, or may not include Antago, Lycia, and co, will help Graal, but still further their own self-image in the process, either by intention or sheer accident. My question is Tyhm, where is the line drawn? There is always a shadow between light and dark.

Second point, Graal would die without the support new players. The staggering increase of players during the 1.2 - 1.3 era has probably kept Graal alive all this time. Otherwise it would have more than likely just died of attrition, and anyone who says that would have been a good thing has no right to be here at all.

Third, and maybe most important point; Player input. Classic will always be a server built by the players. It always has been, and always will be, but the increase in players has made it unbelievably hard to listen to EVERY single player with an idea, and what's even more impossible is trying to make it so EVERY single person likes it. Face it, not everybody will like what you do, and you'll get scrutinized for it. Whether that be Tyhm, Antago, or myself.


A couple wise words of Lord Chimp! HAH! What a oxy ***** that there phrase is!

P.S. Antago, you have no idea how much laughter you have given me for http://www.angelfire.com/ut/antago/site/images/main.html , I wish you would have talked more trash about me then. Thank you, and may one thousand fleas infest your underpants!

TrueHeaT
11-02-2001, 12:41 PM
WE WANT MORe PIZZA PLACES