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MattKan
11-25-2012, 09:18 PM
I'm sure it doesn't really matter to you a whole lot, but we have come to a consensus and are shutting down the server. We've been working on it since July 2011 and have some cool stuff done, but, times are changing. The staff who are the life of the server are starting to grow up; quite frankly, it's hard to motivate people who have a billion other things going on in their life.

The main issue we're facing is that Stefan's policies aren't too popular around our server. We planned and developed our server from an iOS standpoint, and it's become extremely obvious that it just isn't going to happen. It was supposed the be the MMORPG for Graal iOS, but with Zodiac to compete with on PC and Delteria and Zodiac now on iOS, it's foolish. I guess it's somewhat understandable for Stefan to ignore us and put us at the bottom of his priority list, but several staff have put thousands of hours of man-power into the server so the whole thing seems a little ridiculous. Even though I may not be the biggest supporter of Thor, what Stefan did to him really got to me. What's the point of developing a server when all we have to look forward to in the future is either Tigairius removing us and trying to take over or Stefan trying to take over our server and use our content in a way we never wanted?

That being said, we'd like to offer the biggest kudos ever to those of you who are working to keep this game going. I remember Dusty once making a thread called "Your welcome, Eurocenter" and Stefan completely avoiding the topic and closing it. But to all the developers, the people working hard on iClassic, iEra, Graal the Adventure, Delteria, Zone, and every other server on Graal, who have stuck with Graal and made it what it is: I offer my greatest and most sincere thanks. You guys have changed the lives of thousands of people by doing what you do, and I just want you all to know how grateful I am and how grateful the other staff on Stroseria are. Thank you very much for all that you've done for this game, and we really can't wait to see what you have to offer to us in the future.

I'd like to take this opportunity to commend my staff team. They're truly the best people I've ever worked with in my life; I don't want you guys to think that this server's shutting-down is because of any of them. Specifically I'd like to give my thanks to Aya for always working her absolute best to benefit the server. She's probably one of the most hardworking and insightful people I've ever met on this game. Thanks also to the community for supporting us.

For all the work that went to waste, we're exploring other options for it. We want to have it see the light of day, so we might try to work something out with Stroseria or just find something else who is capable and willing to continue it. Seeing "Stroseria" release, though, is probably never going to happen, and I will almost certainly not be a part of it. We may just release the content in a .zip on the main forums and leave it for the vultures to consume; but I'm not worried about that at the moment.

This is getting too long, but I feel like I've been here too long not to say something.

Fulg0reSama
11-25-2012, 09:21 PM
http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/bwe/images/2009/12/YOUR-MOVE-TIGER-WOODS.jpg
Stefan

To MattKan: It's completely understandable from what I've read of your lament to feel, best of luck to any future ventures.

Crono
11-25-2012, 09:32 PM
:[ <3

Admins
11-26-2012, 01:32 AM
I'm sorry it didn't work out. One problem is that some staff think Classic is "low quality" and can easily be remade and expect their server to go on iOS easily. But it's actually the opposite, releasing a server on iOS actually means it must be quite polished. People expect that the game is working, items are not disappearing, it's not buggy or slow, they have stuff to do etc. That's why we cannot release many servers and we have also work to maintain the current servers. We originally planned to release Zone last year, but it took another year to finish it (we are currently working on that). Possible future iOS games are Delteria, Zodiac, Kingdoms.
We plan to make it easier in the future to release on iOS, Facebook etc. though. It will still be good to first plan for a release on PC (hosted, classic server) instead of trying to make it iOS only.

MattKan
11-26-2012, 01:45 AM
I'm sorry it didn't work out. One problem is that some staff think Classic is "low quality" and can easily be remade and expect their server to go on iOS easily. But it's actually the opposite, releasing a server on iOS actually means it must be quite polished. People expect that the game is working, items are not disappearing, it's not buggy or slow, they have stuff to do etc. That's why we cannot release many servers and we have also work to maintain the current servers. We originally planned to release Zone last year, but it took another year to finish it (we are currently working on that). Possible future iOS games are Delteria, Zodiac, Kingdoms.
We plan to make it easier in the future to release on iOS, Facebook etc. though. It will still be good to first plan for a release on PC (hosted, classic server) instead of trying to make it iOS only.

We talked about trying to release for PC but decided our server was too similar to Zodiac. Our server was inspired with the goal of creating the MMORPG server that the iPhone players had asked for. When we started, in Summer 2011, Zodiac iPhone was cancelled and Delteria iPhone wasn't even conceived. We contacted you with our plan, and you kept telling us you would definitely check us out.

But you never did, and whenever I've noticed you and decided to ask you about it on PC servers, you kept saying the same thing. Don't you think it's a little unfair that we were just trying to improve your game and you constantly gave us the runaround? Couldn't you have just told us this from the beginning?

Now we've just wasted a lot of time. We all have thousands of hours on the server from when we were working... we made sacrifices on Graal and in our real lives in order to work on this server. Couldn't you have been honest with us and given us five minutes of your time in exchange for thousands of hours of man-power?

We wanted to make a Graal server, and we went after the role we saw. We were 100% willing to dedicate ourselves completely and work our butts off, and he did for quite a while. It's not a question of not understanding the amount of work it took; I think we've shown on multiple occasions that we were willing to work hard every step of the way, so it's not fair for you to say that. It's too late to just turn around and release for PC when we never planned we'd have to compete with Zodiac... and quite frankly, none of us want to directly complete with Zodiac.

xXziroXx
11-26-2012, 02:02 AM
Getting a server to pass a Classic inspection is hard enough, and only Zodiac, Maloria & Graal the Adventure has done that in the past... 6 years? All three of those servers had very high quality content from a development point of view, made from some of the best developers on Graal in their respective areas of expertise.

Passing an iOS inspection would be ever harder. You'd literally have to be close to bug free and have your things extensively tested before it can be used.

Not to sound rude, but based on everything I've seen personally from Stroseria, your content quality is no where near the same level of either of the three previously mentioned servers. So... based on that, it's pretty obvious that you guys were expecting far too much.

And now you're doing what countless of other servers have done before you and will be doing after you; giving up.

ffcmike
11-26-2012, 02:08 AM
It will still be good to first plan for a release on PC (hosted, classic server) instead of trying to make it iOS only.

And what about the subscription policy and harsh trial restrictions which make it extremely difficult to build up a sustainable new community?
Plus if a group of new developers were ever to launch a server on PC, wouldn't they still have to keep re-purchasing Gold to even be able to continue working on it?


It was your own decision to develop for Classic though, Stefan didn't force you to. And you disrespected Stefan so you basically got what you deserved.

Completely irrelevant and the same can be said of every Graal server that ever existed. I would also like to iterate that most people don't see both sides of the story, and it is something which stretches back much further than just the last few months.

We contacted you with our plan, and you kept telling us you would definitely check us out.

Now we've just wasted a lot of time. We all have thousands of hours on the server from when we were working... we made sacrifices on Graal and in our real lives in order to work on this server. Couldn't you have been honest with us and given us five minutes of your time in exchange for thousands of hours of man-power?


I can concur with this, in a total of 12 months attempting to propose different plans and ideas towards the removal of observer mode, not once did I ever even receive an answer of "no", or any sign that our plans had actually been read. Either responsibility was skirted, or emails were simply not replied to. The one instance a suggestion was made to us, something I did not explicitly say no to, it turned out to be Stefan's intention all along, so it wasn't really a suggestion.

MattKan
11-26-2012, 02:15 AM
Getting a server to pass a Classic inspection is hard enough, and only Zodiac, Maloria & Graal the Adventure has done that in the past... 6 years? All three of those servers had very high quality content from a development point of view, made from some of the best developers on Graal in their respective areas of expertise.

Passing an iOS inspection would be ever harder. You'd literally have to be close to bug free and have your things extensively tested before it can be used.

Not to sound rude, but based on everything I've seen personally from Stroseria, your content quality is no where near the same level of either of the three previously mentioned servers. So... based on that, it's pretty obvious that you guys were expecting far too much.

And now you're doing what countless of other servers have done before you and will be doing after you; giving up.

One thing we've had a problem with was even getting iOS tools. I realize that an iOS inspection is a huge, daunting obstacle, but we didn't even get the ability to come close to that. Another issue we've had is staff not wanting to / being incapable of paying for gold. So while the owner has generously paid for gold for some of the staff, he can't really pay for it all. It's a slap in the face when you see unreleased servers like Delteria that don't even require gold to develop. We've had trouble getting staff because 1) they don't want to pay and 2) they want to use the iOS tools so they can actually test their work, and Stefan offers that on other servers but has neglected ours. I never contacted him about becoming an iPhone server tomorrow, and I didn't even contact him about not paying for gold... I just asked for the tools so that applying for inspection could be somewhere in the distant future. That's really all we're asking for in all this; we know that our server needs work, but it's hard to inspire morale to make it possible.

xXziroXx
11-26-2012, 02:20 AM
What kind of magic "tools" are you looking for?

NicoX
11-26-2012, 02:21 AM
What kind of magic "tools" are you looking for?

I thought the same, there are no tools?

MattKan
11-26-2012, 02:24 AM
What kind of magic "tools" are you looking for?

Just the ability to test our server on iOS devices.

foxstar70
11-26-2012, 02:42 AM
Well, everything is turning back to how "poorly" this game is being managed. But at the end of the day it is a developer's platform that shouldn't be taken so serious. Stefan is very busy and it'd be unlikely for anyone to be able to address any requirements from developers next to working on the client itself, and managing everything, including iOS servers.

It is apparent he's a programmer, not a manager of any kind. He could hire a team in Paris to do managerial work for him to fix the problems and address suggestions, but I'm assuming he'll never do that.

So, there you have it. Take it or leave it. Graal can be a fun medium for development and easily sharing it with friends, that is as far as I'd personally render it as.

ffcmike
11-26-2012, 02:50 AM
A non serious development platform charging approximately $50 for 12 months of being able to "play"?

Easy to share work with friends?

foxstar70
11-26-2012, 02:52 AM
A non serious development platform charging approximately $50 for 12 months of being able to "play"?

Easy to share work with friends?

Assuming you live in a first world country like the majority of people on the internet - yes, easy to share. $50 Every 6 months for server rentals really isn't that much, you'd spend that on a Friday night or two.

Playing is free of charge.

smirt362
11-26-2012, 08:20 AM
They're still working on a Zodiac release?

Kiwi27
11-26-2012, 12:00 PM
\Playing is free of charge.

Unless you want to be able to play without restriction, that is.

Anyway, Stroseria was fun. :3 I made great friends, and I'm pretty sure I got about fourteen times better at levelling working there.

If you're interested in seeing what would have been on the server, here's one example http://www.graalians.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241432&postcount=28 in my levels thread. I might post some more, seeing as I can now.

Elk
11-26-2012, 12:58 PM
if you want them to use your world as representation of what graal can offer, then it needs to be polished and ready for global competition

MattKan
11-27-2012, 04:11 AM
We talked about trying to release for PC but decided our server was too similar to Zodiac. Our server was inspired with the goal of creating the MMORPG server that the iPhone players had asked for. When we started, in Summer 2011, Zodiac iPhone was cancelled and Delteria iPhone wasn't even conceived. We contacted you with our plan, and you kept telling us you would definitely check us out.

But you never did, and whenever I've noticed you and decided to ask you about it on PC servers, you kept saying the same thing. Don't you think it's a little unfair that we were just trying to improve your game and you constantly gave us the runaround? Couldn't you have just told us this from the beginning?

Now we've just wasted a lot of time. We all have thousands of hours on the server from when we were working... we made sacrifices on Graal and in our real lives in order to work on this server. Couldn't you have been honest with us and given us five minutes of your time in exchange for thousands of hours of man-power?

We wanted to make a Graal server, and we went after the role we saw. We were 100% willing to dedicate ourselves completely and work our butts off, and he did for quite a while. It's not a question of not understanding the amount of work it took; I think we've shown on multiple occasions that we were willing to work hard every step of the way, so it's not fair for you to say that. It's too late to just turn around and release for PC when we never planned we'd have to compete with Zodiac... and quite frankly, none of us want to directly complete with Zodiac.

Was hoping Stefan would respond to this honestly.

KriosEthan
12-12-2012, 02:17 PM
This is just my personal opinion this “Im giving up because we got overlooked” seems quite childish. Like others have said you guys started a project expecting to go big. Understanding that you guys would like your server to move forward is understandable. He may have overlooked you guys at this time but if you continued to work on this server and perfect it. Like he said a bug free server that is %100 functional, they really can’t afford to produce a server on IOS just to find out that it has bugs and loop holes (not saying this server had that) but it may have been the reason he choose to overlook it for the time being. Also there are ways to develop on grail without having gold, setting up a FTP server that is linked with your G-server works just fine. I have actually done this through a website, it works well with updating any files on the server as well as downloading them. So not having really can’t be an excuse. On top of that when you guys started developing this server you knew the risks, with grail servers its pretty much all or nothing and judging by the looks of it you guys now have nothing because you simply gave up because you didn’t get what you wanted exactly when you wanted it. If I was in Stephan’s shoes why would I give you guys the time of day when you guys are just giving up? In any case him giving you the same response was probably his way of saying “your server isn’t ready yet”. Ive never actually played this server but I have seen it on the hosted tab with maybe 10-14 players which wasn’t much. (not saying nobody played). Like Stephan said perfect the server and get it moved up to classic then he may give you guys the chance after seeing how well the server preforms. With that being said hopefully you guys pick back up where you left off on the server. Don’t let your pride get in the way of your decisions.

Hiro
12-12-2012, 10:39 PM
aside from problems with stefan, which none of us have control over, you could have looked at the scope of your server and cut back. anything that wasn't essential to what your server was should have been put aside - getting to the PC tab should have been your top priority.

i will never understand why every developer seems to think that they need a giant overworld, over 500 seemingly pointless NPCs, several GUIs even when the default does well enough, even quests to some extent are something that can be added later once the bare-bones is finished. hell, even the overworld should be finished before buying the actual server and wasting developer time.

ffcmike
12-12-2012, 11:40 PM
This is just my personal opinion this “Im giving up because we got overlooked” seems quite childish.

I think the point Mattkan was trying to make was that they've given up because they had been developing the server towards what turned out to be a false pretense.

Like Stephan said perfect the server and get it moved up to classic then he may give you guys the chance after seeing how well the server preforms.

If anything, this would mean working towards a much larger false pretense.

DustyPorViva
12-13-2012, 12:20 AM
A lot of people who have developed and spent money on Graal have probably paid the same amount as a commercial license rights of a commercial engine.

MattKan
12-13-2012, 03:39 AM
If we continued to work, we'd be able to pull this off. We never expected to be finished by now, and we're not "giving up" because we aren't; in fact, we were set on continuing to work on this for year(s) if we had to. The problem is that the end result has gotten less and less desirable. What would be the point in putting in all that work just to have it taken from us by Stefan and used somewhere else? What if Tig decided to hijack it all and remove some of us who have done the work just because he's jealous or doesn't like us? We just don't see a point in continuing when we aren't even guaranteed security after we finish.

There are people on this game that are willing to continuously put forth effort under those circumstances, and I must say that you have my absolute greatest respect. Unfortunately, Stroseria just isn't included in that group of people.

Stowen
12-13-2012, 05:10 AM
If we continued to work, we'd be able to pull this off. We never expected to be finished by now, and we're not "giving up" because we aren't; in fact, we were set on continuing to work on this for year(s) if we had to. The problem is that the end result has gotten less and less desirable. What would be the point in putting in all that work just to have it taken from us by Stefan and used somewhere else? What if Tig decided to hijack it all and remove some of us who have done the work just because he's jealous or doesn't like us? We just don't see a point in continuing when we aren't even guaranteed security after we finish.

There are people on this game that are willing to continuously put forth effort under those circumstances, and I must say that you have my absolute greatest respect. Unfortunately, Stroseria just isn't included in that group of people.

I hear you Matt. That's the only thing I really dislike about Graal. (Other than the rediculous pricing for bettering the game). The fact that, if they feel the need or want to, they can deem your hard work as their property. It's a crappy feeling to know that when you are finished, have a nice polished working bug free server, they can remove you from your position if they feel the need to. Then all that hard work, and money, was for THEIR benefit.

NicoX
12-13-2012, 02:22 PM
I hear you Matt. That's the only thing I really dislike about Graal. (Other than the rediculous pricing for bettering the game). The fact that, if they feel the need or want to, they can deem your hard work as their property. It's a crappy feeling to know that when you are finished, have a nice polished working bug free server, they can remove you from your position if they feel the need to. Then all that hard work, and money, was for THEIR benefit.

Well you know that from the beginning, shouldnt start working on a Project if you are scared to lose ur stuff. Its not an excuse.

InfamousPride
12-13-2012, 09:48 PM
What would be the point in putting in all that work just to have it taken from us by Stefan and used somewhere else?

This should be illegal. Unfortunately since it is stated in the ToC that everything we upload to Graal is their property, it isn't. I just think that there should have to be a reason, be it through breaking a part of the ToC yourself, for them to be able to take it away at all.

MysticalDragon
12-14-2012, 03:08 AM
We hardly test on the Ios even though we have access to? About 5-7 month we had the same lost hope expectations as you. We had to virtually do everything our self with no support due to stefan being busy. But within time Delteria grew into an amazing server and we earned our keep. Instead of quitting just try harder.

AND P.s
Delteria is only free to play because its server number is 3 or something. YEARS before the payment system lol.

Gos_pira
12-14-2012, 03:32 AM
AND P.s
Delteria is only free to play because its server number is 3 or something. YEARS before the payment system lol.

isn't that just because it's classic-enabled? or am i misunderstanding something?

xXziroXx
12-14-2012, 09:30 AM
isn't that just because it's classic-enabled? or am i misunderstanding something?

This is correct. All servers that have been on the Classic list at one point or another are still Classic enabled.

Fulg0reSama
12-14-2012, 11:45 AM
This should be illegal. Unfortunately since it is stated in the ToC that everything we upload to Graal is their property, it isn't. I just think that there should have to be a reason, be it through breaking a part of the ToC yourself, for them to be able to take it away at all.

Reminder: It's only their property if the property in question is not copyrighted, in which case they'll force you to remove your content.

VeryVeryScaryBerry1
12-15-2012, 04:14 AM
It's very disappointing to see another server with the affliction that is graal's owners :(

It's sad to see that regardless of the quality of your server, the talent and devotion of your staff members and the amount of time spent can all be taken from you while someone spits in your face.


unfortunately this is the future of anyone who would develop for graal.
having to deal with owners of poor business skills, server restrictions akin to wartime prisons and the overall lack of innovation from said owners.

and if they take time from ignoring you to acknowledge you it's pretty save to assume they're giving you a canned response that doesn't mean anything and will likely never happen :p

the only time anything changes is when they could make more precious money...