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DustyPorViva
01-14-2011, 01:44 AM
I think this would be a cool addition, AND backwards compatible. Basically, you allow the body template to have a mask to create further shading.

Ignore the ****ty bevel I used, it's just to portray a point :)
http://i.imgur.com/ewCgb.png

So what happens is Graal will take the mask and apply it over the body image after coloring is applied. Now you can have custom colors AND some additional shading!

http://imgur.com/F3CPB.png

For backwards compatibility, since the additional space will be absent in older bodies it will(or should) do absolutely nothing.

Soala
01-14-2011, 01:58 AM
You know I support all your ideas, Dusty.

STEFAN READ AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Luda
01-14-2011, 02:01 AM
Support!

DustyPorViva
01-14-2011, 02:18 AM
Here is a better example for people who don't think the bevel portrays the idea good enough(*COUGH*rufus*COUGH*):

http://i.imgur.com/mKua5.png

edit: ACTUALLY it might even be better to have the mask work from a more neutral gray(like 128,128,128) so we could also have highlights.

DemonSpawnn
01-14-2011, 02:44 AM
I Support this!

Clockwork
01-14-2011, 02:45 AM
I don't really see the point.

New bodies are rarely made by themselves. I don't see people doing twice the work for the effect of being able to change the colors when they'd probably just upload edits with a lot less work being done.

DustyPorViva
01-14-2011, 02:47 AM
I don't really see the point.

New bodies are rarely made by themselves. I don't see people doing twice the work for the effect of being able to change the colors when they'd probably just upload edits with a lot less work being done.
Making multiple copies of bodies simply for having different colors is inefficient and a waste of uploaders times. It also isn't that much effort to create a mask. Shade and color the body the way you'd like as you make it, then make a copy of it, greyscale it, erase the outline and adjust the brightness accordingly. BAM. Instant mask.

Alternatively you can just bucketfull the shades you used on the white onto the other parts of the body and easily create a mask like above. Any methods aren't really that much effort, ESPECIALLY if you use layers in whatever graphical tool you're using.

Door
01-14-2011, 02:47 AM
I'm already wearing one, this is the hottest trend since Skip-It and Pogs

Clockwork
01-14-2011, 02:50 AM
Making multiple copies of bodies simply for having different colors is inefficient and a waste of uploaders times. It also isn't that much effort. Shade and color the body the way you'd like as you make it, then make a copy of it, greyscale it, erase the outline and adjust the brightness accordingly. BAM. Instant mask.

It's not really inefficient in a server filled with tons of images and random things, including bodies and such that never get touched. Just as well, it only takes but a moment of an uploaders time to upload multiple images, and besides, what else do uploaders have to do?

I guess it couldn't hurt as a new feature though, I just don't see more than a few bodies ever using this.

DustyPorViva
01-14-2011, 03:01 AM
For example, Luda recently made a Saiyan Body and it's limited to a custom palette when with this method he could create a body with the default palette and a mask to create the same effect.
His original body:
http://i.imgur.com/2EHm0.png

So I took his body and create a mask-friendly version in a few minutes:
http://i.imgur.com/YoTW9.png

And when using default colors and the masking creates:
http://i.imgur.com/xWLI3.png

Along with the proposed new color support: http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134259103 that Stefan has said he's trying to implement, this could be powerfully flexible.

DustyPorViva
01-14-2011, 03:05 AM
It's not really inefficient in a server filled with tons of images and random things, including bodies and such that never get touched. Just as well, it only takes but a moment of an uploaders time to upload multiple images, and besides, what else do uploaders have to do?

Just because there is existing inefficiencies does not mean it's not efficient to make an efficient change.

It also doesn't just "take a moment" of an uploaders time when most of the bodies are just recolors anyways. This could eliminate most uploads from even being needed, thus saving A LOT of time.

RegretZ
01-14-2011, 04:19 PM
I like it. The bodies look a lot better and seem to have more depth. You got my support.

Demisis_P2P
01-14-2011, 04:36 PM
This is sort of how 2d bump mapping works, except in that case you have three color channels at specific angles that tell the light source how to interact with the 2d image to make it appear 3d.

If we could get full bump mapping support it'd open up a lot of options for entire new pseudo-3d servers, not just more detailed bodies.

Demisis_P2P
01-17-2011, 08:03 AM
FYI this is an example of what you can do with 2D sprites and bump mapping.

uqz4dunlhX4

DustyPorViva
01-17-2011, 08:22 AM
FYI this is an example of what you can do with 2D sprites and bump mapping.

uqz4dunlhX4
That's... not really like this lol.

Knux
01-17-2011, 08:49 AM
I'm already wearing one, this is the hottest trend since Skip-It and Pogs

Nothing is a hotter trend than Pogs. Sorry. I wanna wear one though.

Demisis_P2P
01-17-2011, 09:24 AM
That's... not really like this lol.

Haha. It kind of is, that example is just really over the top.
The method is essentially the same.
You take a 2d texture/image and apply a mask to it.
Except instead of just being an alpha mask, the bump map also tells light sources how to interact with the texture/image to maintain its depth and perspective.

http://www.bricksntiles.com/community/attachments/preview01.jpg

This video is closer to Graal's perspective. The light at the bottom is basically how lights on Graal work at the moment, the light at his mouse cursor is affected by bump mapping.

ggZBZqIoWcg

DustyPorViva
01-17-2011, 09:26 AM
Haha. It kind of is, that example is just really over the top.
The method is essentially the same.
You take a 2d texture/image and apply a mask to it.
Except instead of just being an alpha mask, the bump map also tells light sources how to interact with the texture/image to maintain its depth and perspective.

This video is closer to Graal's perspective. The light at the bottom is basically how lights on Graal work at the moment, the light at his mouse cursor is affected by bump mapping.

Well sure, they're both masks but other than that... nothing is really similar lol.

Demisis_P2P
01-17-2011, 09:34 AM
Well sure, they're both masks but other than that... nothing is really similar lol.

Yeah I guess. I think I was just doing some wishful thinking.

linkoraclehero
01-17-2011, 11:31 AM
This has evolved past the original topic, but...

For the record, this is already possible without the need for feature requests. Just learn how to use placeholders, and gani parameters to add shading yourself. The EASIEST way is to do this in a text editor - clone the definitions, replace BODY with ATTR#, change the ID, and clone the frames and change the target IDs, making sure to order it properly.

ALL of Graal 5 supports alpha layering. If you don't follow, don't worry about it.

Crow
01-17-2011, 07:02 PM
This has evolved past the original topic, but...

For the record, this is already possible without the need for feature requests. Just learn how to use placeholders, and gani parameters to add shading yourself. The EASIEST way is to do this in a text editor - clone the definitions, replace BODY with ATTR#, change the ID, and clone the frames and change the target IDs, making sure to order it properly.

ALL of Graal 5 supports alpha layering. If you don't follow, don't worry about it.

This method would take the simplicity away from the feature entirely, though.

Fulg0reSama
01-17-2011, 07:06 PM
This has evolved past the original topic, but...

For the record, this is already possible without the need for feature requests. Just learn how to use placeholders, and gani parameters to add shading yourself. The EASIEST way is to do this in a text editor - clone the definitions, replace BODY with ATTR#, change the ID, and clone the frames and change the target IDs, making sure to order it properly.

ALL of Graal 5 supports alpha layering. If you don't follow, don't worry about it.

I support this idea more tbh but why a text editor? create custom ganis and have the shading mask as sprites. Also what crow said.

DustyPorViva
01-17-2011, 07:08 PM
Doing it yourself means using all custom ganis, and doing a ****load of work that's not even compatible with existing work. Not worth the effort.

Fulg0reSama
01-17-2011, 07:14 PM
Doing it yourself means using all custom ganis, and doing a ****load of work that's not even compatible with existing work. Not worth the effort.

I wouldn't say that. Rather yet I would say it's worth it if you have a server that has custom ganis already (I'm talking starting out with custom walk, sword, lava, etc etc.) but for classic link's idea would be rather pointless.

I like your idea a lot dusty but the whole lot of it seems pointless as well. If you want shading on the body, why not add it yourself in the first place rather than create a mask section in the body template which you could simply add anyway over the body like your demonstration seems to show possible?

linkoraclehero
01-17-2011, 08:36 PM
This method would take the simplicity away from the feature entirely, though.

Hardly. The shading has to be body-specific anyway to look good, so it would have to either be appended to the body image, or a separate file for every body, to properly match the shape. The simplest way to implement this is channel-based coloring, which will allow shading in the same manner as the game already uses; all reds get colored to one color, all blues get colored to another, etc.

The gani method is byfar the easiest as modifying the ganis to support it using notepad, nano, vim, emacs, etc. takes roughly 1-2 minutes per gani if you know what you're doing (If you're using vim or emacs, you should be able to figure it out rather quickly ;))

You mostly just need to understand alpha layer concepts, mostly that the alpha layer is averaged, not added or subtracted.

DustyPorViva
01-17-2011, 08:42 PM
Hardly. The shading has to be body-specific anyway to look good, so it would have to either be appended to the body image, or a separate file for every body, to properly match the shape. The simplest way to implement this is channel-based coloring, which will allow shading in the same manner as the game already uses; all reds get colored to one color, all blues get colored to another, etc.

The gani method is byfar the easiest as modifying the ganis to support it using notepad, nano, vim, emacs, etc. takes roughly 1-2 minutes per gani if you know what you're doing (If you're using vim or emacs, you should be able to figure it out rather quickly ;))

You mostly just need to understand alpha layer concepts, mostly that the alpha layer is averaged, not added or subtracted.
How is that going to help for servers/bodies that are already existing? Let new servers do whatever they want, but that is not what this is for.

Fulg0reSama
01-17-2011, 08:43 PM
If you ask me it'd be easier to just add the mask over the body in one save and one without If you desire. I don't see the need as it seems to be just a want.

Crono
01-17-2011, 09:07 PM
whats the problem w/ giving bodies more colors tho

Demisis_P2P
01-17-2011, 09:08 PM
If you ask me it'd be easier to just add the mask over the body in one save and one without If you desire. I don't see the need as it seems to be just a want.

You're kind of missing the whole idea.
In order to use the default body color system the body needs to have blocks of solid color; which means no shading. Adding a shading mask to it allows the body to have defined details and still have changeable colors with the shading added on top.

linkoraclehero
01-17-2011, 10:30 PM
What you're suggesting is the production of a million free cars and the removal of all roads. You can't remove or modify existing systems, as it screws with what people have already done.

Some servers already use custom ganis for players, most of which change how the BODY image is used, and a good deal completely remove the use of the body*.png/gif files (Bomys for example, probably use the BODY param)

Not all servers will want this new feature, and if they do, they either make it or request it. Like I said, it can be done in a matter of minutes, seeing as you want it to apply to BODY - just choose a param that your server never uses and copy the defs, change the indexes and set BODY to PARAM#, copy the animation, change the indexes, then you're set.

linkoraclehero
01-17-2011, 10:31 PM
Doing it yourself means using all custom ganis, and doing a ****load of work that's not even compatible with existing work. Not worth the effort.

Again, it would take roughly 2 minutes tops per gani, that's about 30 ganis an hour. Hardly a ton of work; welcome to game development 101 ;)

DustyPorViva
01-17-2011, 11:07 PM
Again, it would take roughly 2 minutes tops per gani, that's about 30 ganis an hour. Hardly a ton of work; welcome to game development 101 ;)
Ya, let's just do that for Unholy Nation. It'll work out fine.

fowlplay4
01-17-2011, 11:42 PM
It would be silly use to a text editor at all... You can just have a script clone BODY sprites and then place the new mask ATTR sprite in the same position as the body sprites used in each frame.

That would just be a hack to the problem though..

I'd expect something like:

player.mask.body or player.body.mask

Crono
01-17-2011, 11:43 PM
or jus make ppl b able to use more colors????

Soala
01-17-2011, 11:59 PM
Feel like bumping Rufus' thread "Color Expansions for V6"

DustyPorViva
01-18-2011, 12:00 AM
Feel like bumping Rufus' thread "Color Expansions for V6"
Why? Stefan already said he was going to try to get it in v6 :P

Crono
01-18-2011, 12:02 AM
o so this is something to add on top of that?

Soala
01-18-2011, 12:03 AM
Why? Stefan already said he was going to try to get it in v6 :P

Oh right, I forgot that for once, he listened to us.

DustyPorViva
01-18-2011, 12:04 AM
o so this is something to add on top of that?
I think this, along with more flexible colors would be insanely great for the aesthetics, aye. It will eliminate the need for a lot of the bodies that float around just to be recolors.

Rufus
01-18-2011, 12:44 AM
I wouldn't like to be the person making a "body mask" but I can see how they'd be a nice addition. Anything to increase the ease of player customization. I really like the idea.

DustyPorViva
01-18-2011, 12:56 AM
I wouldn't like to be the person making a "body mask" but I can see how they'd be a nice addition. Anything to increase the ease of player customization. I really like the idea.
Well, as far as making regular "Graal bodies" go, with no shading at all it might be a bit more difficult. But probably what I'd do is I'd go about making a regular body, and shade it accordingly as I go. If you use Photoshop, it should be as easy as copying the layers of the shading over to the mask side. If you don't(like me) it would just mean copying all the shading over, coloring it to black and white and erasing it from the normal body. Not really the hardest thing to do as far as creating a mask, it's just the effort of having to shade your body as well that would be time consuming.

Fulg0reSama
01-18-2011, 03:34 AM
It would be silly use to a text editor at all... You can just have a script clone BODY sprites and then place the new mask ATTR sprite in the same position as the body sprites used in each frame.

That would just be a hack to the problem though..

I'd expect something like:

player.mask.body or player.body.mask

This is basically what I had in mind a lil after what I said about the gani edit stuff.