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Mark Sir Link
10-12-2010, 11:51 PM
I've played Graal for a little under 10 years, and had been pretty steadfast in my avoidance of Unholy Nation. I don't know why I hated it, I just did, probably because the rest of Classic's/Graal the Adventure's players did. So I would rarely log on to UN in an attempt to stir up some trouble for laughs and log off within 5 minutes or so. However, I got permanently banned from Unholy Nation sometime, I believe, in 2007 for my disruptive behavior. Early in 2010, feeling burned out on the games I had been playing after departing Graal after being banned on Classic, I found out that one of the few Graal players I had remained in contact with was at the very least friendly with UN's GP Chief and soon to be manager, Backdraft. Through Mystic, I began to lobby for my unban on Unholy Nation, which Backdraft was not receptive to. Eventually after getting Bell involved, it was decided that I would be given another chance.

So sometime in March of this year, I was unbanned and my second chance began. Being entirely new to the server, I had to begin completing quests to gain hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield. To be quite honest, in reflection I am amazed I even stuck around to do this because of how awful the quest design is from start to finish. I had no idea where to go to start a quest, no idea what to do in some of the quests, and none of them were very exciting to complete anyway. Most of them were downright boring and in such arbitrary locations that there was no real desire to finish them. However, since I did already know people on the server, I was able to get through them with their assistance. At the time, FAQs seemed to just ignore questions entirely.

After reaching maximum hearts, sword, and shield power, I began participating in Unholy Nation's events and found out pretty quickly that they were virtually the entire focus of the server. Some people also tried trading hats and items, but it is virtually impossible for someone who just started on Unholy Nation to enter the existing economy at all. The only way I was really able to obtain any items was to get them through friends and cheat. Yes, I admit that I exploited a bug and spawned some several thousand EP. I have not tried to conceal it since it was found out, and tried my best to undo some of the significant damage I had done by giving away literally everything I had acquired, whether I obtained it through legitimate or illegitimate means. I am not saying that what I did here was ok, but am merely trying to illustrate that with the prices of items how they are, it is literally impossible for a new player to enter the economy as it is and nothing has been done to improve or fix this, as the management has seemed exclusively focused on satisfying the old players rather than doing anything to draw new players in.

Not long after I had been unbanned on Unholy Nation, I decided to offer my services as a scripter to the management. Backdraft informed me that the current Scripting Admin was AWOL, so I should contact Luca about being hired on Unholy Nation. So I tried. And tried. And tried some more. Luca seemed to be very elusive and not willing to really communicate with anyone, and it took an inordinate amount of time for me to find out what he would even like to see to hire me. I figured with the scripting of things I'd seen on Unholy Nation to this point, my past credentials working on other servers would have been more than suitable for a hire, but I was mistaken. I was asked to make an improved hat trading system for my application, but I decided to do him one better and create full out trading to involve hats, WNPCs, Gralats, and EP. I completed the backend about 2 hours after finally starting (I waited about a week to actually begin on it) and had hastily made a not so good looking GUI to go along with it for a demonstration. I showed Luca the mechanics of it that very night, but got no word on whether I would be hired or not until the next day, and not until I told him I would appreciate being told what his decision was as I had been offered positions to work elsewhere. It was not until I told where I had been offered positions that he told me he would hire me, and even then it seems to have been inspired by some grudge he had with a staff member where I had an offer.

I was assigned to one project along with Downsider, and I never completed it. It was a really boring project to be honest, and I had no inspiration to complete it. After sort of dragging my feet for a month and not completing any work on it, or any other sort of project, I ended up telling a LAT who was close with Luca that I didn't really intend to work on it. I would have told Luca himself, but contacting him was challenging at best.

I think it is pretty indicative of the Management on Unholy Nation that after this, I was never given another assignment. I can't say the same for every development staff member, but it seems to me as though there have literally been zero development assignments from the management in my entire time as a staff member on Unholy Nation, and it seems as though this trend hasn't changed at all.

My next job on Unholy Nation was sort of found by accident when early one morning, Allona asked if I could help script an event for her. Apparently the Events Team Development team had been entirely gutted and no one worked on events any more, despite events being the clear focus of the server. I scripted her event for her, and told her I would be glad to help her if she had any other events to be scripted. This is how my shift to Events Team Development came about. I believe that Gamerkid had taken over as manager by this point, and after Allona and I discussed it with him, I was moved to ET Dev. It was in this job that I really began a workhorse effort to bring about changes to Unholy Nation, even if it was only in Events. With the help of some creative and observant players, especially Rufus, I was able to locate and fix bugs that had been ignored for years, and improve the aesthetics and quality of several existing events. I spent a great deal of time rescripting many old events that used GS1 to use GS2, and I can only say I believe Gamerkid noticed, because not long after my move to Events Team Dev, I became the Events Team Dev Admin so that I could hire some people to assist me with my work.

I regret to say that I never really managed to find someone who was skilled or dedicated enough to help me with event creation and revamp, and pretty much continued to work alone with assistance from Rufus in GANI creation, suggestions, and bug reports.

Near the end of Gamerkid's term as manager, Rufus had suggested that trials be allowed to participate in events as long as they had free time remaining. Gamerkid agreed that this was a good idea, so I implemented it. Absolut_Cron took over as manager during the implementation of this, and as I added some finishing touches (mainly to tell trials that they must upgrade if free time is over and provide a link to the GraalOnline Store to purchase gold time), Absolut_Cron took issue with the whole idea. He spouted some nonsense about how trials shouldn't be allowed to play events, but then switched to the reason trials were blocked were because they didn't have 13 hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield and might enter observer. Rufus and I explained to him that trials wouldn't be at risk of entering observer mode since they would require free time to play in events to begin with, and that if he felt that having a trial who did not have all the hearts, and maximum shield and sword power were at a disadvantage in events, and also a liability in team events, then perhaps paid players who had not completed quests should also be barred. He tried to tell us that that somehow did not make sense, and asked me to create a poll asking if trial players without 13 hearts and level 3 shield and sword should be allowed to play in events. This question seemed ridiculously long winded and intended to create bias, so I simply made the poll: "Should trial players be allowed to play in events?"

"Yes" won by an overwhelming margin, but Absolut_Cron felt I had somehow fixed the poll and introduced bias somehow by asking a straightforward question. I offered to create a second poll asking if "Should players without full hearts, shield power, and sword power be able to play in events?" but this never ended up happening.

Mark Sir Link
10-12-2010, 11:51 PM
So trials were now able to play in events, which I would have thought would have been a decision made by myself and the Events Team Admin to begin with. I believe Absolut_Cron was still unsatisfied with this change but I point-blank refused to undo the changes, and it is likely he was unable to find another scripter willing to do it since scripter activity was very low.

I have seen several trials come to Unholy Nation and play in events and decide to upgrade, but this could be undone by the whim of the current Manager, who feels Trials should not play in events, the only thing there is really to do on the server. If the Manager is unable to make a good decision on whether Trials should be able to participate in events or not, I can't understand why anyone would believe he'd be able to make a good decision elsewhere.

Near the end of Gamerkid's term as manager, I was also given full NC control, and I guess by things Gamerkid has said ex post facto, he intended for me to end up with full level rights as well.

I began to make changes to fix things beyond the realm of Events Team related scripts, and a good number of players began to come to me first whenever they had a concern with something that needed fixing, which I took pride in. At the very least, it made me feel that players felt I was actively working and felt that I was as good a contact as any if they felt something needed to be done.

I won't even begin to list the changes I made because there were a lot of changes, and I can't even begin to remember what all of them were. However, I remember making a few changes to the forums that players had been requesting for a fairly long time, namely the ability to disable or create their own hotkey for opening the forums, and disable the forums from opening every single time a player logged on.

These changes were met with open hostility from the Manager, who had in the past publicly questioned why I had made certain changes, why I had certain rights (as if I had somehow assigned them to myself and was able to answer that question), and why I was doing anything beyond Events Team related work.

He even went so far as to post in an in game forum thread, questioning why I had made a change and claiming it didn't work. His claim about it not working was valid for three people - Luca, Rage, and himself. As I only had a limited view of the additional moderation tabs and such, I had not realized that the width of the GuiTabCtrl was expanding over the options button and preventing it from being clicked.

This incident alone tremendously shook my faith in the current manager of Unholy Nation. He told me he expected me to personally report any changes I made to him, but felt it was acceptable for him to publicly question my ability and decisions rather than taking his concerns straight to me. He questioned me in front of staff, and worse yet, in front of players for everyone to see.

I had always conducted myself with quite a bit more professionalism than the majority of Unholy Nation's staff. Nearly every night, there would be another argument about who should be fired, who isn't doing enough work, who was being corrupt.

I found these conversations ridiculous because over the past 3 months, there had been literally 2 people who had done any sort of development work that had made it into player's hands - Gamerkid and Myself. I didn't bother to jump into these conversations to remind the people pointing the fingers that they also were just as useless, just as lazy as the people they wanted removed. The entire driving force of Unholy Nation seemed to be participating in political issues on Unholy Nation, which Absolut_Cron allowed to build and did nothing to prevent during his time as PR Manager, and Manager.

I quit within days of the forum changes, and since then have made no attempt to stay out of Unholy Nation's political issues, openly pointing out to players and staff alike what problems there are with Unholy Nation, and informing players who submitted bugs precisely how long it would take for their problems to be fixed.

At this point I can only hope the PWA will make sort of serious effort into reviewing Unholy Nation. There is literally no guiding direction to Unholy Nation from the top-down. There are very few self-motivated workers remaining on Unholy Nation who will find work to be done on their own, and they aren't even development staff. I know Unholy Nation's management team is actively a turn off to many high caliber developers in Graal's community, and I am hoping the PWA will do something to change that. Unholy Nation still has a (relatively) high playercount, but I can only see the playercount continuing to lower if things continue as they are.

Deas_Voice
10-13-2010, 12:04 AM
cool story, but why are you posting it(stopped reading after the first post)?

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 12:07 AM
cool story, but why are you posting it(stopped reading after the first post)?

At this point I can only hope the PWA will make sort of serious effort into reviewing Unholy Nation.

Maybe read before posting?

kia345
10-13-2010, 12:54 AM
At this point I can only hope the PWA will make sort of serious effort into reviewing Unholy Nation

They won't.

UN has players and along with Zodiac (also plagued with mediocrity) and Era (look what happened last time with PWAs), it doesn't need to be fixed as far as any authority figures are concerned. It's much more productive to egg on a server that's behind and threaten them by pointing out they're not contributing than to try to fix something that is broken below the surface, where potential customers don't see.

Hiro
10-13-2010, 01:51 AM
as i was forced onto UN a couple years ahead of you after delteria, babylon, and doomsday all fell, i can verify that you're experience is not just limited to the management mentioned. even as far back as when NJ was manager, there has been a nonstop power-struggle between friends and groups of friends for staff-rights on the server. i say staff-rights because it isn't like their focus is to help UN out, or develop something they want released to UN's public. these are groups of friends whom have enjoyed the positions of staff for a very long time, to the point where them being staff on UN is directly correlated to whether or not they'll continue to play the server, much less work on it

now we're having a clash of groups of friends, those rooted in UN's staff and those forced to come onto UN as it's the only "functional" classic server. our current manager is worried about the influence of other groups, the same as any manager has ever been worried about it. the succession of friends-hiring-friends for the reason of them simply being friends is what perpetuates this mediocirty - there is no harmony within UN's staff, and never has been. all projects that have been released onto UN have been created by one or two people, at the most. all "major" projects that are trying to be released are being plagued with political friendship - in your own post you relate to a boring project luca asked you to accomplish, and having strained communications combined with a complete indifference towards both the project and perhaps some resentment from both managers, the development never took place

and i believe this is what happens to most projects that UN tries to accomplish. having no harmony within the staff itself, all updates typically come from one person who releases very sporadically, and without much public mention (the last publicly announced project that had any fruition was the achievements, which i'm pretty certain was created almost entirely by gamerkid) with leads many to think that it was just the whim of the scripter - hence why i can see crono taking issue with trial accounts playing events; it most likely seemed to him as if a staff member was just changing things without asking the man in charge first

and when the PWA steps in, as it did on era, the clashing of friends just becomes even more strained as one friend get's removed allowing a different group of friends to step in and slowly replace all the staff - the first manager the PWA selected for era, from what i hear, instantly hired a multitude of friends as staff members, even though they had histories of unstable staff behavior

so, honestly, the problem lies with the manager - because who else but the manager is supposed to try and get the team to work together? unless you want to change the staff-dynamics that have ruled over UN since it's conception, the manager has to get his **** in gear and and thus get his staff in gear

MysticX2X
10-13-2010, 02:08 AM
I agree with what Kevin has said, for the most part at least. Not because I have any bias, but because of my own experiences that ended horribly. Unholy Nation, internally (and externally too), is a huge mess. After playing Unholy Nation for 6-7 years, and seeing it decline in recent years, I decided to help out and apply for the Levels Team.

Note: I don't mean to threadcop, but I decided it would be beneficial if provided another point of view by a former member of staff, instead of just making a new thread. I don't really care if you don't care to read it.

I was assigned to a large-scale project, new Castlewars, that, at the time, I believed to be the only decent thing that was coming to the players, as I saw nothing else (that was significant) for the current players after Gamerkid released the achievements system. The development manager, Luca, probably posessed no sort of care for the project, and never offered his help at all. Didn't seek out to find any scripting help for me, nor cared to look into the project comments when I told him I spent a great deal of time compiling a comment sheet to explain Castlewars and track progress back in may-June. He found scripters for whatever he or his girlfriend was doing. It was only until gamerkid took manager, that I was finally given a scripter.

Me and this scripter, Jumb0, did a lot for the time being, but he soon disappeared near the end of August, and I was left unmotivated to finish it, although I was working on it at a very slow pace. There was literally nothing else presented by the Dev Manager that I really felt could be of great use to the current players, aside from decently made quests, which have been in the talks way before I was even staff. In hindsight, the amount of time I had to create the levels was a very long time, but I literally saw nothing else to do, and told Tooty, a former Levels Admin, that I was up for any other assignment I could do in the meantime, so long as it had a proper use. I was given really none, beside an auction house that was never used.

When Gamerkid left management, and Cron-Star took over, he gave me levels admin after removing Khyber of that title for a good reason (was gone for over a month to visit her boyfriend, and immediately given Levels Admin upon returning), and giving me Levels Admin. She quit staff because of that action. I decided to vacate my admin position, and step down, and argued with Cron-Star to give her her position back, as she acted horribly to him because of her demotion, and he reluctantly did. Nobody told me to give it back, and in fact, told me to keep it, while the rest congratulated me. I decided to do this being frightened that Luca would also quit, and that would hinder development a lot. But I was wrong, dead wrong. In fact, dev could have been in a better shape had I stayed as Levels Admin, looking in retrospect. For my day as Levels Admin though, I did foresee a lot of change I could of done in retrospect to what is being done now, but whatever. I let Khyber decide what she wanted to do with the team, since she wanted the position very bad, and decided to focus on my project, while being an asst levels admin.

Less than 2 weeks after doing this, I was getting the feeling that both Khyber and Luca were attempting to have me removed, for which I found out after I was fired they were doing it at that time. It was sort of hurtful as I gave back her position. I felt like it was more vengeance than actual ethics, as it has been known that I don't exactly agree with what Luca has done in the past. About 2 weeks after I had that feeling, I was fired, and apparently blacklisted for not finishing a project. Kind of surprised me they fired me then as I was to finish the CastleWar levels completely by the end of September, which was about a couple weeks away, and was planning to work on things for Halloween. (I would show pm logs, but I cannot do it here) Castlewars was never really my fault with the scripting difficulties I had. Jumb0, the assigned scripter, had disappeared in mid august, so I was unable to do it. I also was experiencing several computer issues, where my PC crashed very frequently during the course of the summer. Apparently everything was overlooked, and I was somehow to blame completely, everything else ignored.

I was also cited for refusing to work on anything else or with other people when I was fired, to which I find ridiculous. The only thing I refused to work on was a noobie course Khyber/Luca were working on because it wasn't entirely necessary nor anything interesting for the current players, the ones who need content the most, nor was I comfortable working with Luca because of how he treated me.

I realize I haven't been working much near the last few months of me being staff, but there really wasn't much planned out with the entire dev team. If the entire dev team was producing, when I was not, then only would I have understood my removal. But I don't, and still don't. I could have fought for my job back, but being fired the way I was by those 2 people, I don't want anything to do with them, and wouldn't want to come back until Luca is demoted from Development Manager. I don't see why this hasn't happened yet, but I guess the commonly cited reason is lack of a "replacement", which is laughable. Luca has done a ton of illegal stuff in the past, such as giving out free items, or giving his girlfriend extra rights that she didn't need. But time and again, it is overlooked by the Manager.

I intended on quitting graal in light of what happened to me, but only for a few days, until I decided to reinstall (but not really playing), and just watch UN fall to its doom, until PWA decides to act.

Luca, in his term of Co-Manager/development manager, which spans about 6 months and going, has literally stressed nothing beneficial for the server besides a noobie course, and quests, which you can refer to my above point for. He didn't look at Castlewars as anything important to him, and even excluded that whenever asked about future things coming to UN. Only Cron-Star really mentioned it, when asked. I could go on about Luca's antics, but that would be far too much to write out.

The source of the problem I see with development is Luca. For any Classic players, you could consider him Master Storm v2. Prior to the load of BS you see him posting in the news forum on UN, he has done nothing to promote dev unity or any large-scale projects, and I only feel he is acting because his position is in danger. At the very least, PWA should look into the antics of Luca, and act on it, but I doubt they will as several complaints were sent about Luca from several people over the course of his term as co-manager (6 months). Management altogether could be a different story since Manager has went to about 4 different people this year, but my primary focus is really how development has went.

This thread may be deleted/closed, but I hope for somebody to read this at least.

Crono
10-13-2010, 02:11 AM
actually read the whole thing

appreciate the "absolut_cron" to prevent confusion <3

12171217
10-13-2010, 02:24 AM
Ever since I quit UN, my creativity and determination has exploded to epic proportions in school, sports, and my own programming projects. Love it. Might log in soon to see how things are moving along, but I don't plan on making frequent visits like I used to.

I think everyone should stop playing Graal; it's great.

adam
10-13-2010, 02:27 AM
Ever since I quit UN, my creativity and determination has exploded to epic proportions in school, sports, and my own programming projects. Love it. Might log in soon to see how things are moving along, but I don't plan on making frequent visits like I used to.

I think everyone should stop playing Graal; it's great.

I didn't intend to stop, but I keep forgetting about it lately o.O

Chakrah
10-13-2010, 03:16 AM
Kevin, I admire your honesty.

I think UN is at a loss of you not Developing anymore, because unlike most developers I have seen, you actually gave two ****s about the server's scripts.


That being said, I hope wherever you may go next if you do, you work just as hard as you did on here. (Unholy Nation)

Elizabeth
10-13-2010, 03:27 AM
I read the whole thing, you did a really good job on the forum options. The "disable" option had been needed for such a long time. I was really happy to see it and I've had the forums disabled since.

Rufus
10-13-2010, 03:27 AM
all "major" projects that are trying to be released are being plagued with political friendship - in your own post you relate to a boring project luca asked you to accomplish, and having strained communications combined with a complete indifference towards both the project and perhaps some resentment from both managers, the development never took place

I think this has a lot less to do with friendship groups more-so a lack of enthusiasm and direction given with projects. If you believe in your project (and are motivated about the direction you're aiming towards) I see no reason why people wouldn't stay engaged by that. If you're assigning people monotonous crap and expecting them to just do it then there's little going to come out of it, unless that person is motivated elsewhere. On this server it seems that Graal politics is the only kind of motivation that is employed. Attitudes are infectious, drama-free, and project-leaders really need to take advantage of that.

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 03:36 AM
I read the whole thing, you did a really good job on the forum options. The "disable" option had been needed for such a long time. I was really happy to see it and I've had the forums disabled since.

tbh this wasn't a very complex/time consuming/etc addition and I consider it minor among the things I did.

However, the players continuously requested it so I decided to take the tiny bit of time required for this, which seems to be something the majority of other staff aren't interested in doing.

nightslayer317
10-13-2010, 03:37 AM
Wow this was great. My first impression when I saw the large walls of text was to print it out and read it on the toilet. After finishing the first paragraph I couldn't stop reading.

I hope this gets made into a movie.

*edit : BTW Kevinbo, thanks for applying that option to disable forums on login <3

snoop413
10-13-2010, 05:06 AM
i was only staff for a little while, but every day i went on RC and saw so many arguments between people. luca was the co-manager but he never said anything to try and stop it, even though he made it a point in the server ops to not argue. instead he began talking to khyber and like two weeks later went to visit her for god knows how long. it's a shame they made kevin feel so un-wanted, because in my two or three months as ET he did more work then anyone. i don't see why they don't just fire luca and make kevin developer. they don't even need a dev admin since they have vicious to give rights.

plus luca is way... odd. he's literally stalked a person from graal before (i have proof), IP sniffs me and then gets his (her?) girlfriend to harass me and make stuff up on skype. and made a blacklist to blacklist me/my friends from staff, which i have saved before crono managed to delete it. forum PM me if you want to see it.

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 06:49 AM
As a side-note about Luca's and Khyber's long disappearance, I can understand perfectly well while people would want to take a break from their volunteer job on Graal, but what I can never understand is why some of the people wanting to take a break insist on being a nuisance or otherwise hindering the work of those who are willing to work.

The same thing happened with Master Storm and countless others on Classic and I could never understand why people would hold a server hostage to their whims.

Fulg0reSama
10-13-2010, 07:07 AM
I'm curious to ask what you mean specifically by staff being a nuisance. Because if it's simple ****-talk than you should be able to simply ignore it. But if it goes further than that than yeah I have no idea why.

nullify
10-13-2010, 07:13 AM
Thread of soap opera proportions.

Unrelated note: I miss Delteria.

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm curious to ask what you mean specifically by staff being a nuisance. Because if it's simple ****-talk than you should be able to simply ignore it. But if it goes further than that than yeah I have no idea why.

as in directly or indirectly preventing the completion of projects

Kamakaze
10-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Kevin and Mystic,

Both of your "short stories" on Unholy Nation and Unholy Nation staff have easily grasped my attention. I was astounded as I read the first few sentences and was easily dragged in to reading it all and left in awe as I finished them both. You both hold valid points that I agree with 100%.

Firstly, in the past year we have gone through an amazing amount of Managers, whether they get removed for various reasons, step down, or even quit in total. I know that Unholy Nation has work to be done, but take some steps forward and press people to get things done instead of quitting/stepping down, which shows people that you don't want to be on Unholy Nation staff, at least in my eyes that's what I see.

Second, I have seen Luca develop many things along side the infinite amount of particle emitters I have seen from him. Sadly I was staff when he decided to take this 2 month "vacation" it was called, to visit his girlfriend. Among this all he kept talking to staff to change his away note in server ops, being gone for a grand total of a month and a half to two months.

As was stated ahead by Mystic, Khyber was away for 3 months with no activity, how she was able to come back and get LAT Admin in an instant is just surprising, I don't think Mystic, that you should have stepped down, you should have kept the spot, honestly more things would have been done, and more things would have been takin' into consideration!

Kevin, I have heard this story from many people, most people leaving out a s*** load of detail, this is the first that I was able to read and understand the WHOLE story behind your quitting of Unholy Nation. I was only told half of it, by guess who... Luca.

I can see that, "Luca has done a lot lets keep him," but I don't see it, Luca fixes things here and there, and makes emitters, ooooh how fun.. Where is the real development, oh wait that's right, in a project him and Khyber are working on... alone.. wtf?

Luca needs to either pick up the game, or be removed from Dev Manager, we are in too much need to have a Dev Manager that screws off and doesn't do what is needed. Our server isn't one of the best, mainly because of the lack of Dev's that are prepared to work AND stay with the current Management.

Not bagging on all the staff on UN, just that I don't see UN moving forward ANY time soon with the current Management. We need to get someone to straighten things out OR get new Management under way, someone that will take matters and get things done, press to get things done, and want things done. Not someone that will sit around, horse around on RC all day then not come on for a good week or so.

Unholy Nation needs more devoted people like Kevin and Mystic on staff, and I hope one day they think about returning because I know I never said anything, but Kevin you did a smashing job, I loved the updated to the Events you did, including the tips for the Events, looks great. Mystic I knew you were always hard at work and willing to get things done, why you were fired for lack of coders help is just dumb, I don't see why they don't want to keep staff that WORKS and does things they should be doing. Unholy Nation staff keeps the abusers and fires the hard workers?!? What is wrong with this, we need to get that fixed!

Thanks for reading the whole rant if you did :)
-Joker

Fulg0reSama
10-13-2010, 07:36 AM
Thread of soap opera proportions.

Unrelated note: I miss Delteria.

Me too bro :cry:

fowlplay4
10-13-2010, 07:37 AM
inalac si acul : pit-orp spends all time making emitters, other boring things, pretty obvious (near exact behavior on Zodiac around the time Yen was going insane)

nullify
10-13-2010, 07:38 AM
And the plot thickens.

12171217
10-13-2010, 07:41 AM
lol particle emitters

kia345
10-13-2010, 07:41 AM
inalac si acul : pit-orp

I was going to say that :I

MysticX2X
10-13-2010, 07:42 AM
inalac si acul : pit-orp

lol, a lot of people already knew that.

I am really enjoying the amount of support this thread has gained. Hopefully it comes to some avail.


Unholy Nation needs more devoted people like Kevin and Mystic on staff, and I hope one day they think about returning because I know I never said anything, but Kevin you did a smashing job, I loved the updated to the Events you did, including the tips for the Events, looks great. Mystic I knew you were always hard at work and willing to get things done, why you were fired for lack of coders help is just dumb, I don't see why they don't want to keep staff that WORKS and does things they should be doing. Unholy Nation staff keeps the abusers and fires the hard workers?!? What is wrong with this, we need to get that fixed!


Thanks, Joker. I can't really say I was productive though, due to a lot of difficulties UN had with management and direction. I can only say I was willing to work, but didn't see projects aimed at the current players. I wanted to release Castlewars, but saw no motivation to finish it since no scripter was available after Jumb0 disappeared, and Luca didn't see to get a replacement scripter, and instead, fired me. The only project Luca put focus into was his own noobie course, and nothing else. UN doesn't even need an extensive noobie course IMO. Until you restructure the server to be somewhat consistent (laff), that project should have been kept on the backburner, or not as extensive as it was made.

Kamakaze
10-13-2010, 07:42 AM
lol particle emitters

DownSider you think I'm kidding, most of the things I see from Luca are emitters -_-

nullify
10-13-2010, 08:02 AM
*floating hearts*

Kamakaze
10-13-2010, 08:06 AM
lol, a lot of people already knew that.

I am really enjoying the amount of support this thread has gained. Hopefully it comes to some avail.



Thanks, Joker. I can't really say I was productive though, due to a lot of difficulties UN had with management and direction. I can only say I was willing to work, but didn't see projects aimed at the current players. I wanted to release Castlewars, but saw no motivation to finish it since no scripter was available after Jumb0 disappeared, and Luca didn't see to get a replacement scripter, and instead, fired me. The only project Luca put focus into was his own noobie course, and nothing else. UN doesn't even need an extensive noobie course IMO. Until you restructure the server to be somewhat consistent (laff), that project should have been kept on the backburner, or not as extensive as it was made.


No problem Mystic, but put it this way, why were you not productive? No assignments assigned to you? Nothing was being planned, nothing was getting released that was benefiting anyone BUT the staff. Castlewars was about finished I believe just no one was motivated to code it for the players. I mean come on everytime we have something FOR the players it never gets released, but the moment staff make something for themselves or staff beneficial IT'S RELEASED INSTANTANEOUSLY! This "noobie course and GMAP" that has been in the makes shouldn't have even been started in the first place, mainly because we need to get other things fixed, we need to focus on changing and fixing a majority of scripts on UN. There is sooo many scripts that are GS1 and a handful that are NOT working and need some structure.
Where will this mayhem end and the restructure and new beginning start -_-???

MysticX2X
10-13-2010, 08:20 AM
No problem Mystic, but put it this way, why were you not productive? No assignments assigned to you? Nothing was being planned, nothing was getting released that was benefiting anyone BUT the staff. Castlewars was about finished I believe just no one was motivated to code it for the players. I mean come on everytime we have something FOR the players it never gets released, but the moment staff make something for themselves or staff beneficial IT'S RELEASED INSTANTANEOUSLY! This "noobie course and GMAP" that has been in the makes shouldn't have even been started in the first place, mainly because we need to get other things fixed, we need to focus on changing and fixing a majority of scripts on UN. There is sooo many scripts that are GS1 and a handful that are NOT working and need some structure.
Where will this mayhem end and the restructure and new beginning start -_-???
Castlewars was actually close to completion, both leveling and scripting. It won't be finished now though lol. As for assignments, aside from the noob course, I was asked about the thought of some redone tcpk with additional features, that didn't seem really necessary when first presented to me, but said I would be willing to do it if made proper, as she(Khyber) was still sorting some ideas out with Nullify, who was a former LAT on UN. He can fill in the blanks of that idea. I could go on with what Luca 'wanted' to do that he hasn't done, but I already explained myself enough. One was trying to rescript UN's sytems on dev, which has 'started' months ago.

Kamakaze
10-13-2010, 08:25 AM
Castlewars was actually close to completion, both leveling and scripting. It won't be finished now though lol. As for assignments, aside from the noob course, I was asked about the thought of some redone tcpk with additional features, that didn't seem really necessary when first presented to me, but said I would be willing to do it if made proper, as she(Khyber) was still sorting some ideas out with Nullify, who was a former LAT on UN. He can fill in the blanks of that idea. I could go on with what Luca 'wanted' to do that he hasn't done, but I already explained myself enough. One was trying to rescript UN's sytems on dev,

I know that Castlewars was pretty much done, just needed some finishing touches, why you were fired for "not working on it" when it was technically finished is a mystery. A new TCPK?!?! Didn't we just get a new one? I believe we did not too long ago, that can wait, that is the LAST thing we need right now. We need to focus on player needs, and getting things fixed, it would benefit more to do that, then put that aside and make pointless crap and NPCs.
But like Mystic said, I've explained myself enough here, lets just hope that someone sees this and acts on it, because this is getting outrageous of the lack of concern on UN!

DustyPorViva
10-13-2010, 08:35 AM
Haha, can't believe how long it took to get an option to hide forums on login. So ****ing ridiculous.

Fulg0reSama
10-13-2010, 08:36 AM
But like Mystic said, I've explained myself enough here, lets just hope that someone sees this and acts on it, because this is getting outrageous of the lack of concern on UN!

Wouldn't It make more sense to be the voice for the server's players and say something to someone who can?

MysticX2X
10-13-2010, 08:48 AM
Wouldn't It make more sense to be the voice for the server's players and say something to someone who can?

global staff read these forums, so essentially this is a good representation.

Hiro
10-13-2010, 09:28 AM
I think this has a lot less to do with friendship groups more-so a lack of enthusiasm and direction given with projects. If you believe in your project (and are motivated about the direction you're aiming towards) I see no reason why people wouldn't stay engaged by that. If you're assigning people monotonous crap and expecting them to just do it then there's little going to come out of it, unless that person is motivated elsewhere. On this server it seems that Graal politics is the only kind of motivation that is employed. Attitudes are infectious, drama-free, and project-leaders really need to take advantage of that.
the attitude is what i was also speaking of. if you play favoritism in terms of freedom to develop towards your friends, and treat others as mere robots to complete mundane tasks, then naturally you won't stay engaged, and the development won't take place

Absolut_Crono
10-13-2010, 11:57 AM
I wont address everything in this thread, as much of it would be arguing over hearsay. What I will answer are a few inaccuracies and misrepresented opinions. Kevin, your claims are not completely accurate. I did in fact not want trials to play in events, as that was a talked about metric for removing observer mode. Allowing trials to play in events was thus counterproductive. As far as the poll is concerned, I did not believe there was a way in which you could make the poll biased, nor did I think you could fix the poll. I only told you from the beginning the poll asked about people with 13 hearts, and not trials specifically. The only issue I had about people with 13 hearts was that trials were less likely to have all hearts and swords/shields, which is what I explained to you at the time. Regardless, the decision on something which could impact the server in a large magnitude such as this, would not go to the ETA nor ET Dev Admin, it would go to the Manager. You even state yourself you asked Gamerkid, so to say you thought it should be up to you and Allona was contradictory to that fact. However, as this was being worked on before I became Manager, I was unaware of the plan to remove observer mode. As PR Manager I was never consulted by Gamerkid, and thusly was never informed. Also, I never attempted to get the ban put back on trials, this is misrepresentation.

As for the forums, I have told you more than once, you should have asked before unilaterally deciding to change such an important system. As I told you at the time, the forums are how we spread server news to the players, and you should have at the minimum, asked if it was ok before implementing the change. Not doing so left me questioning how you attained those rights. I see nothing wrong with that, though, as I am the Manager, and should know how you attained them. As Hiro said, UN has been plagued with friends giving rights to friends for no reason since long before you played here, and it was a earnest concern. Anyhow, our issues go deeper than that. You had a valid reason to be upset when you quit the first time, but quitting because Luca took your rights to levels was not the correct way to handle the issue. As soon as I would have logged on I would have corrected the issue and spoken to Luca about it. When I spoke to you again, you were set in your demands.

I consulted the other Admins, and we came to an agreement that it would be counterproductive to hire you again, especially after quitting over something minor like Luca removing your level rights for 1 day. This being said, if you had any issues, or have any issues, you could always come to me. Instead, you choose not to speak to me unless you are directing something my way in masses or in the forums. I was not made aware you felt alienated on RC until long after you quit, and it wasn't even you who let me know, it was Door. I had been joking with you on RC, and was unaware you were taking me seriously, and thus I am at fault. It's something that I have been working on.

I don't want to make excuses. I have no reason to, I just want to inform you guys why things have been slow as of late. When I took over from Gamerkid, about half of the active staff members quit UN. This was the first of many hurdles I have been working on in this last month and a half. Yes, it has only been about a month and a half since I became Manager, especially when factoring in I had to leave for a wedding shortly after. I have been working hard to get the team in order since coming back. When Kevin quit, a lot of animosity was left on RC. I think a lot of people forgot that Kevin quit of his own accord, and was not fired. This was only one of many large disputes I dealt with since becoming Manager.

When I made Mystic LAT Admin, it was solely because Khyber had been inactive for a month. I felt that not only was Mystic more active, but that he could lead the team better. This lead to Khyber starting a fight with me, and later Mystic about why I should hire her back. My entire time as Manager has been full of these arguments. Every decision I made, I had 5 or 6 people tell me it was wrong. I was not used to that at the time. I have adjusted since then, and know better how to deal with situations like that. It was a trial and error process. When I was nice to everyone, people did not work. When I threatened people, they did not work, and were angry. Nobody walks into the Management position knowing exactly what to expect, that I can attest to.

In my time as Manager I have learned quite a bit already. I learned from our most recent hiring that there is a lack of interest in developing for Unholy Nation currently. This is something that I have to change as Manager, and I promise I will be working on. If we have developers, we can create new things.

This leads me to my next point. What is it exactly that the players of Unholy Nation wish to see? I have my own ideas, of course, but that is only 1 players idea. We all play this game, and should all have a say in it. That was my purpose in creating the UN Suggestions Thread "Idea of the Month". Unfortunately, it did not fill up with tons of lovely ideas. Regardless, I challenge each and every one of you to really think of what you would like to see on UN, and suggest it. I am always open to suggestion, criticism or even a 'Hey what's up?'. You can PM me, you can send me a forum message here or on the in-game forums. I do not ignore PMs, nor do I ignore messages, and I will respond to you as soon as I see the message there. I want you guys to suggest meaningful things though. If you say 'content', say what kind you think would be fun. I am a player, same as you, and would love to see new and interesting things going on to make this game even better than it has ever been before.

This is actually the second time I typed this message, so I may have forgotten some things. I would like to finish this with this though:
I feel that our team has gotten stronger. There is less bickering on RC than when Kevin and Mystic were staff, and I hope that it only gets better from here. I promise I will work on the things I feel are necessary, but I also implore you to take an active part in this as well. I feel as though miscommunication, and lack of communication are 2 of the things that have caused much of the server's issues as of late. I am increasing communication with the staff, and now need to do the same with the players.

I know I am not perfect, and I am working on myself to become a better Manager. I need help in knowing what it is you want as players, though. If I fill the server up with nothing but my own ideas, I wont be doing anything better than past managements have done. I want to set measurable goals, and attain them. This wont be a process that will fix itself in only a month, though, so please bear with me. In the meantime, we have some projects going on while I try and attract more development staff. I hope you all look forward to the new Halloween content that should be released within the next 2 weeks, in order to allow Halloween to last a few days, in classic UN fashion.

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 12:04 PM
I wont address everything in this thread, as much of it would be arguing over hearsay. What I will answer are a few inaccuracies and misrepresented opinions. Kevin, your claims are not completely accurate. I did in fact not want trials to play in events, as that was a talked about metric for removing observer mode. Allowing trials to play in events was thus counterproductive. As far as the poll is concerned, I did not believe there was a way in which you could make the poll biased, nor did I think you could fix the poll. I only told you from the beginning the poll asked about people with 13 hearts, and not trials specifically. The only issue I had about people with 13 hearts was that trials were less likely to have all hearts and swords/shields, which is what I explained to you at the time. Regardless, the decision on something which could impact the server in a large magnitude such as this, would not go to the ETA nor ET Dev Admin, it would go to the Manager. You even state yourself you asked Gamerkid, so to say you thought it should be up to you and Allona was contradictory to that fact. However, as this was being worked on before I became Manager, I was unaware of the plan to remove observer mode. As PR Manager I was never consulted by Gamerkid, and thusly was never informed. Also, I never attempted to get the ban put back on trials, this is misrepresentation

And when I said why not prevent all players without 13 hearts and level 3 shield and sword from playing, you said no, only prevent Trials who meet that criteria from playing.

As for the forums, I have told you more than once, you should have asked before unilaterally deciding to change such an important system. As I told you at the time, the forums are how we spread server news to the players, and you should have at the minimum, asked if it was ok before implementing the change. Not doing so left me questioning how you attained those rights. I see nothing wrong with that, though, as I am the Manager, and should know how you attained them. As Hiro said, UN has been plagued with friends giving rights to friends for no reason since long before you played here, and it was a earnest concern. Anyhow, our issues go deeper than that. You had a valid reason to be upset when you quit the first time, but quitting because Luca took your rights to levels was not the correct way to handle the issue. As soon as I would have logged on I would have corrected the issue and spoken to Luca about it. When I spoke to you again, you were set in your demands.

I consulted the other Admins, and we came to an agreement that it would be counterproductive to hire you again, especially after quitting over something minor like Luca removing your level rights for 1 day. This being said, if you had any issues, or have any issues, you could always come to me. Instead, you choose not to speak to me unless you are directing something my way in masses or in the forums. I was not made aware you felt alienated on RC until long after you quit, and it wasn't even you who let me know, it was Door. I had been joking with you on RC, and was unaware you were taking me seriously, and thus I am at fault. It's something that I have been working on.

Please do not pretend to understand everything that occurred that lead me to decide to leave.

I have already introduced other reasons behind why I chose to left in this thread that I did not share with you upon departure, E.G. Your general lack of professionalism in publicly critiquing staff members in front of other staff and players.

There is less bickering on RC than when Kevin and Mystic were staff, and I hope that it only gets better from here.

Correlation does not imply causation. It would be ridiculous to imply that my presence or departure would have a significant impact on bickering considering I rarely participated in any RC chat up until around the time of my departure.

Absolut_Crono
10-13-2010, 12:13 PM
And when I said why not prevent all players without 13 hearts and level 3 shield and sword from playing, you said no, only prevent Trials who meet that criteria from playing.

As I said, preventing trials from playing events was part of removing Observer mode. It would not matter how many hearts they had.


Please do not pretend to understand everything that occurred that lead me to decide to leave.


I would not even attempt to act as though I understand everything that caused you to quit. The only things I know are things you personally presented to me, and things told to me that you supposedly said.


Correlation does not imply causation. It would be ridiculous to imply that my presence or departure would have a significant impact on bickering considering I rarely participated in any RC chat up until around the time of my departure.

I did not intend imply that you and mystic not being on RC would have anything to do with RC being less hostile, only that the both of you would not know the current state of RC, only the state at your departures.

Mark Sir Link
10-13-2010, 12:18 PM
As I said, preventing trials from playing events was part of removing Observer mode. It would not matter how many hearts they had.

I can't believe this idea would even be entertained, since the removal of observer mode and being unable to play events would practically make the server pointless. The server has much of its game play value invested in events, and if players can't experience those events, there is little left to do.

I would not even attempt to act as though I understand everything that caused you to quit. The only things I know are things you personally presented to me, and things told to me that you supposedly said.

What I told you and how I told you you could bring about my return was intended to be a concise list that would have, for the most part, solved the issues I had with your managerial style.

You chose not to accept my proposal and that is your prerogative, but I would prefer you not try to tell people I left Unholy Nation simply because I was not given a developer tag. I can't imagine any prospective worker on Unholy Nation would be appreciative of the idea that should they choose to no longer work for the server, the management will try to fudge both their intentions and reasons for departure.

I did not intend imply that you and mystic not being on RC would have anything to do with RC being less hostile, only that the both of you would not know the current state of RC, only the state at your departures.

Even if you did not intend it, your vague wording implied it.


I consulted the other Admins, and we came to an agreement that it would be counterproductive to hire you again, especially after quitting over something minor like Luca removing your level rights for 1 day.

I also do not appreciate this misrepresentation because we are both fully aware that this was not a one day thing. This occurred several times over several days on what I can only assume was pure whim or to satisfy some political issue, since the past 3 management reigns seem to have been dominated by politicking rather than actually working.

MysticX2X
10-13-2010, 05:30 PM
When I threatened people, they did not work, and were angry.

Finally someone who actually sees it in the correct light. I was literally threatened by Khyber/Luca for a month to finish CW, with no offer to help (mostly with scripting). I'm sorry, I can only relate to my problems here as I don't know other staffs issues.

I did not intend imply that you and mystic not being on RC would have anything to do with RC being less hostile, only that the both of you would not know the current state of RC, only the state at your departures.
Honestly, I find that hard to believe, and if so, would expect it subject to change after the staff realize UN isn't going anywhere in it's current dev direction.

The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.

Crono
10-13-2010, 06:39 PM
ive been harassing this khyber or w/e since she was hired, she still hasn't shown me a single level she's made :I

Kamakaze
10-13-2010, 08:44 PM
Honestly, I find that hard to believe, and if so, would expect it subject to change after the staff realize UN isn't going anywhere in it's current dev direction.

The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.

this

nullify
10-13-2010, 08:48 PM
ive been harassing this khyber or w/e since she was hired, she still hasn't shown me a single level she's made :I

damulucky

Hiro
10-14-2010, 01:03 AM
The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.i knew

jacob_bald6225
10-14-2010, 02:02 AM
I volunteer to be UN manager!

12171217
10-14-2010, 03:09 AM
I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.

Supaman771
10-14-2010, 05:31 AM
I only read the first two main posts, assuming the remainder are trolls or long dumb responses. (like this one)

All I have to say is UN is a joke of a server. Having it on the classic tab makes Graal itself look bad. In essence UN is a chat room with the same 25 events going again and again and again. The server has no point to it what-so-ever and I don't personally care to know what the original goal of UN was.

At least you cared enough about it to try, but you went through way too much and your work hasn't effectively accomplished anything because the server is still a huge mass of randomness with musical chairs managers. But you obviously had a passion for your work because you kept going through all the retardism that is UN.

I'm sure the server will remain, there's still the same 50 people chatting and 'going out' and 'caron' and whatever the hell else they do on UN now. But you should just get over it and put your abilities to more use. Polishing trash doesn't make it less trashy, your work has unfortunately been in vain.

nullify
10-14-2010, 07:51 AM
hi ds how r u

12171217
10-14-2010, 07:57 AM
p. gud
how u?

kia345
10-14-2010, 07:58 AM
omg hi

nullify
10-14-2010, 07:59 AM
o im good. u no jus not bein on un an stuf. savng preshus time not usn propr gramer.

Hiro
10-14-2010, 09:35 AM
I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.graal is made by developers for developers; it just happens to also have players

I only read the first two main posts, assuming the remainder are trolls or long dumb responses. (like this one)i didn't read the remainder of the post because i'm assuming it's a troll or a dumb response

xXziroXx
10-14-2010, 01:38 PM
I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.

That's a load of crap. Sure, everything is being made by volounteer players, but they *did* volounteer and thus are expected to do ****. They can't just come whining when players complain that they aren't doing stuff.

Bell
10-14-2010, 08:37 PM
UN is taking the same slippery path that Classic was on some years ago. I strongly suggest that absolut_crono be less worried about how pleasant it is on RC and focus more on who is actually doing what to improve the current situation. Many staff members are quite capable of selling themselves as competent members yet if you look closely you will find they do nothing to support what they say.

People ask for PWA intervention but be very careful what you ask for. What people tend to forget is they only choose a new manager, they have no control over who that manager hires. While I'm all for giving a new manager to get settled in and figure out what really needs done and what can be set aside for awhile. They have to also realize that just because someone has been staff for awhile, that doesn't make them any good. The PWA also has the option of just giving suggestions as to what should be fixed/changed but its been my experience that this has fallen on deaf ears.

Although I no longer am a PWA nor do I play UN I do know one thing. There are at least 2 staff members currently on the team that have no place there. I will not name them as I refuse to get involved in a player bashing contest here but I think if management pays attention he will figure out who they are rather quickly.

UN needs fixing as everyone already knows. It has a long list of issues that have been ignored for years that are snowballing to a point that it may never recover. I just hope that those in charge will open their eyes, acknowledge the problems and doing the boring job of fixing them before they've driven UN's last players away.

Mark Sir Link
10-14-2010, 09:07 PM
I know while Bell was PWA I sent her some documents that should have put into question the ability for Cron and Luca to manage before either of them were manager, I believe.

Don't believe I can post them here directly but can PM anyone interested.

fowlplay4
10-14-2010, 09:44 PM
I know while Bell was PWA I sent her some documents that should have put into question the ability for Cron and Luca to manage before either of them were manager, I believe.

Don't believe I can post them here directly but can PM anyone interested.

Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

Mark Sir Link
10-14-2010, 09:48 PM
Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

Yes, I also don't understand why the PWA wouldn't have tried to take a more active role in replacing Backdraft since he was a PWA replacement and didn't last very long. I can only assume he just decided to replace himself without notifying the PWA.

It seems like it just became buddies promoting buddies to the top, and as long as you're in their circle you're immune to any sort of punishment for wrong-doing as shown in that log.

Bell
10-14-2010, 09:48 PM
Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

Yes they did, the PWA had no involvement in their hiring.

Managers choosing to leave of their own accord are given the option of naming a replacement. In Backdrafts case he named his replacement the night before I had planned on replacing him myself. Since a new manager was named, the PWA chose to give that new person a chance. After all, as we had been told so many times before. Let the people who play UN choose their manager, not the PWA.

DustyPorViva
10-14-2010, 09:49 PM
Yes they did, the PWA had no involvement in their hiring.
PM meh! You can't post such intriguing information without dropping names!

Mark Sir Link
10-14-2010, 09:53 PM
Managers choosing to leave of their own accord are given the option of naming a replacement. In Backdrafts case he named his replacement the night before I had planned on replacing him myself. Since a new manager was named, the PWA chose to give that new person a chance. After all, as we had been told so many times before. Let the people who play UN choose their manager, not the PWA.

Based on responses I've seen in this thread alone, ignoring conversations I've had with players and staff elsewhere, I am certain the players don't want Luca to be the Development Manager, and many feel the same about Cron being overall manager.

It doesn't seem like the people who play had any say in the past two appointments, since neither GK or Cron are really active in game.

Bell
10-14-2010, 09:56 PM
You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

Mark Sir Link
10-14-2010, 10:07 PM
You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

I'm not sure at what time period you're referring to, especially if this is about Streety's removal as I did not play UN then.

SwimChao
10-14-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure at what time period you're referring to, especially if this is about Streety's removal as I did not play UN then.

I don't remember being supported when I was manager. The general reaction was "Who the hell is this guy?".

Being said, if Bell's post actually was about me, curious why I was never talked to early on. The post very well could have been about someone else, and I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything.

But I do recall hearing globals getting "a lot of complaints" after I was removed but was never really spoken with about any of them. Not even in the weeks leading up to my removal.

Bell
10-14-2010, 10:19 PM
The whole thing is kind of a blur for me as it was such a huge mess but if memory serves me right. Everyone wanted Streety out then shortly after they wanted him back then they didn't like whoever was in there by then and wanted absolut_crono in but gamerkid (I think) was put in instead. If I still had access to the PWA forums I could probably be more specific but I don't so I can't. I may have the order mixed up some but I do remember people wanting him put in place.

There's a very strong chance that he can and will be a good manager, he just has to figure out who's real and who's in this for the glory and the title alone. The drama of it all may burn him out though before he ever gets a chance to sort it out. Manager takes a lot out of you and usually takes any fun out of the game that you once had.

And no, my comments weren't referring to Streety. All this was post Streety.

Mark Sir Link
10-14-2010, 10:22 PM
I don't know, I just find it much more likely that he will continue to look out for his friends like he did before he was manager and has continued to do after becoming manager.

That BlobZ shield thing? lol.

Wish I still had my rclog.txt

SwimChao
10-14-2010, 10:29 PM
Removed a bunch of irrelevant dumb stuff

Just to pick up on a couple other things pointed out in this topic, I wasn't friends with anybody on this server and excelled pretty far, pretty quickly. My initial hiring was absolute luck.

I have no doubts that Crono will be a good manager when he can finally clear the dash board. Both Backdraft and Gamerkid let a lot of problems accumulate. One of the biggest being Luca, who for the longest time was doing absolutely nothing for the server. Up until just a few short weeks ago he was doing nothing.

Crono's decision making is being convoluted by all the garbage left over from Backdraft, Gamerkid, and possibly even me if my year and a half of management was actually as poor as is viewed today.

It's like walking into a hoarder's house and wondering "Where should I start?".

Seeya
10-14-2010, 11:40 PM
literature.

u can call me tony hawk cuz i'm always on my grind

Supaman771
10-15-2010, 01:12 AM
People ask for PWA intervention but be very careful what you ask for. What people tend to forget is they only choose a new manager, they have no control over who that manager hires.

False.
GC was fired from Era within hours of becoming manager because apparently some people he hired weren't allowed to be hired. (Aka... Tig had a promise to keep and wouldn't allow Wil, among others to become staff.) Thus leading to firing a whole staff team and a manager. After which incident the player that supported the decisions (passive little kinetaro) became manager and everyone else who was against it earned a spot on a blacklist with ludicrous reasons of Anti-Graal, which Tig refuses to explain.

They may not be able to choose exactly who managers hire, but they sure can control it with means such described.


@UN - Server sux, start over plz.

MysticX2X
10-15-2010, 01:25 AM
The problem with managers (among other things) is that they let unsuitable people run the staff divisions and don't take much prerogative to correct any of their antics. Luca is a prime example, that has done horrible things in 3 different managements that were let slid away because Luca is a scripter, and the bad things can be looked over for that value. Is Luca the only one? No, but he is a big factor why UN development is in such a pity state as it is. I had never put faith into Luca when he was given his co-manager spot, and still won't after he tries to be proactive with hirings after having his job threatened.

In no way am I thinking Cron-Star is doing a bad job. He is still relatively new to his management slot, but he does have to rethink on who he should let administrate things, for the better being of the server, as well as what he thinks is good for the server. He may have not been acting ideally in situations like what Kevin stated, but I would like to assume that is corrected as one gets more comfortable with their position. The server was in a bad state way before Cron took over, so he doesn't deserve complete or even most blame. He just needs the staff team to work with him. Also, unjailing BlobZ for that shield was done by Vicious. Even I think that BlobZ didn't deserve a jailing for that.

Otherwise, I would suggest Unholy Nation go UC like Classic, until it decides on what it wants to do with their staff structure. (Edit: meaning for only a very short period of time, and yes this is extremely subjective of me.) At this point, it doesn't deserve to be on the playerworlds list. Why people still log on despite knowing nothing currently is coming to the server is beyond me. And I don't even think a management change forced by the PWA would be a good idea. They clearly failed with Backdraft. The changes Backdraft made still are negatively affecting this server.

You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

The loudest people are clearly the ones who take the initiative to express their beliefs. You have to speak up if you honestly feel very opposed to what is going on.

Mark Sir Link
10-15-2010, 02:16 AM
The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management.

I don't think it should be assumed that there is some silent section of players who are satisfied with how things are on Unholy Nation.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 02:36 AM
Being entirely new to the server, I had to begin completing quests to gain hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield. To be quite honest, in reflection I am amazed I even stuck around to do this because of how awful the quest design is from start to finish. I had no idea where to go to start a quest, no idea what to do in some of the quests, and none of them were very exciting to complete anyway. Most of them were downright boring and in such arbitrary locations that there was no real desire to finish them.

I agree.
We need a new set of quests.

Bell
10-15-2010, 02:42 AM
I don't think it should be assumed that there is some silent section of players who are satisfied with how things are on Unholy Nation.

I completely agree, I'm just saying that although a certain person is getting a whole lot of support or grief that the playerbase is hearing about. That doesn't mean that there are not others that are quietly voicing their opinions by other means. This is not targeting any specific person. This is just generally how it all goes.

Mark Sir Link
10-15-2010, 02:59 AM
I obviously can't speak on behalf of everyone who plays UN at any given time, but some players who remain quiet seem to at the very least agree with some of what I have said here. Anonymous comments:

"I honestly think you deserver Dev Manager not Luca, you actually do ****, unlike Luca, you listen to players needs and crap, also FIX things that are needed to be fix not jerk around with your e-gf...
We need crono to get rid of Luca and get you as Dev Manager, I bleieve you fill that spot the best from what I saw while you were ET DEV/NAT"

"Hopefully we can get you back after Luca gets removed or quits, then you can Manage the dev team and make things right! More people would want to be staff if they had a manager that they can get along and relate to"

"I know you're going through a lot of bull **** right now, by the way. I haven't actually talked to you since. Or ever, for that matter.
But a lot of logs have floated my way, and I don't like how you've been treated."

"Just finished reading, pretty accurate. You failed to mention that you fixed a bug that was preventing us from actually playing in events or sparring or any of the ordinary activities we're expected to fall back on. That's pretty important in my eyes."

"i admire you much more now for you honesty and selflessness"

"love your thread <3
because as you described it, i was able to live it
not sure if anything will happen though...you know how things roll"

"You put up with a lot of **** and still did all you could. Inspirational really."


I can go on and could probably start a petition since I understand that's what has worked in the past, but I can't even see how that's necessary.

The consensus seems to me to be that the majority believe Luca should be removed, while remaining split on Cron.

Mark Sir Link
10-15-2010, 03:10 AM
And to be perfectly honest I am not even sure by what merit Cron managed to reach the rank of manager.

His time as PR manager involved him saying stuff like "I just want to literally punch half of you in the face right now," to the staff in general on RC for disagreeing with him in regards to a punishment. Is that really acceptable staff relations? If he can't even control himself when conversing with his staff, why believe he can interact with players any better?

His time as PR Manager saw in-fighting on RC spiral out of control ridiculously while he did nothing to stop it, and as reward for his effort he gets bumped up the ladder to the top position? Really?

It is pretty clear the PWA made a not so great choice with their last removal of a UN manager, and I don't see why the players should have to suffer as the server chain of command is continually dominated by nepotism instead of merit.

fowlplay4
10-15-2010, 03:32 AM
Hopefully someone will be put into place who genuinely cares about the server, is willing to do the work and follow through with it till completion, and not disregard the needs of the server for the needs and wants of their friends/VIPs.

BigBear3
10-15-2010, 03:52 AM
"You put up with a lot of **** and still did all you could. Inspirational really."

I love you Kevin. Cowabunga!

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 04:24 PM
I obviously can't speak on behalf of everyone who plays UN at any given time,

I can go on and could probably start a petition since I understand that's what has worked in the past, but I can't even see how that's necessary.

The consensus seems to me to be that the majority believe Luca should be removed, while remaining split on Cron.

1 - You can speak on behalf of me at any time, because everything you say is my thoughts exactly.

2 - You should start a petition.

Rufus
10-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Hopefully someone will be put into place who genuinely cares about the server..

I don't think such a person exists.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 04:29 PM
I don't think such a person exists.

That would actually be me or (can't say for sure) Mark Sir Link.

Rufus
10-15-2010, 04:33 PM
That would actually be me or (can't say for sure) Mark Sir Link.

I don't think so. You only play because it's the only thing closest to Classic iPhone, Kevin only plays because it's the closest thing to Classic. "Unholy Nation" as a concept (has there ever been one?) is just a fallback server in my eyes. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find someone who actually cares about the server itself, not just that its the only possible server to play on in a dying genre, or its remaining community.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 04:38 PM
I don't think so. You only play because it's the only thing closest to Classic iPhone, Kevin only plays because it's the closest thing to Classic. "Unholy Nation" as a concept (has there ever been one?) is just a fallback server in my eyes. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find someone who actually cares about the server itself, not just that its the only possible server to play on in a dying genre or its remaining community.

1 - I have never played Classic iPhone.
2 - I am a long-term Unholy Nation player. (Regardless of my hours)
And I'm sorry you see it as a fallback server.

Rufus
10-15-2010, 04:39 PM
And I'm sorry you see it as a fallback server.

Judging from most of the players on it, I don't think I'm the only one.

1 - I have never played Classic iPhone.
2 - I am a long-term Unholy Nation player. (Regardless of my hours)

My bad, so what is "Unholy Nation" to you?

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 04:45 PM
To me,
Unholy Nation is a server that I've played on for a little under 6 years and have had fun on there even when people are being idiots and acting rude. I didn't play as P2P for very long so that really bummed me out but when I did get a P2P, all the advantages came to me and actually made me want to play less. Nowadays I just make stuff for my Reborn server (not advertising) and apply to be GP or LAT on UN. I did take a 5 month break to sort out some personal issues, so that made me lose out on some things but I quickly caught up on them.
So, I'll ask you your question.
What is "Unholy Nation" to you? (Besides you thinking it's a fallback server)

kia345
10-15-2010, 05:07 PM
Unholy Nation is a generic classic server that exists as nothing more than an attempt to take every trait of a quality classic style server and dilute it enough to fit into their already mediocre system. It has everything a classic server needs, but it doesn't dedicate itself to anything.

Sure, it has quests. But they're low quality ones, with no depth and easily forgettable. Sure, it has events and sparring, but they're the lifeblood of the server, and who doesn't have those anyway? And if hours of events don't hold you over, UN is not for you.

It has a ton of quirky, unique things, and that's the problem. It has lots of amazing ideas but no one will flesh them out, so it just becomes the Mario Party equivalent of a Graal server. There's a lot of little, fun things. But that's all they are, little. Not actually the main appeal of the game.

It's a shame that the last of the classic servers is also the dullest. Most of the people I see on it on my buddylist or when I get on are the people who played Classic, Delteria, or NPulse. The people whose servers went down and moved somewhere with similar gameplay. Whether you play it for other reasons or not is irrelevant, because it is undeniably, as Rufus put it, a fallback server.

It doesn't help that it loses a manager every month, its staff line up is constantly fluctuating, and it's obvious no one knows what direction it should be going.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 05:10 PM
I could probably spruce up the quests and make them entertaining but I'd need some time.
By the way kia345, you were right about everything.

Rufus
10-15-2010, 05:56 PM
What is "Unholy Nation" to you? (Besides you thinking it's a fallback server)

I have always considered Unholy Nation to be a horrible mess, especially in terms of its content. It lacks structure, it lacks coherence, and it doesn't show any signs of being an actual playable game. Because of this I've never had any desire to play on it, but due to what happened to Classic, I was pretty much forced to. I didn't start playing by myself though; there was a few of us left on Classic and we all moved over together. We ignored how big of a mess the server was, we met new people, and we seemed to easily integrate into the server. I think that's the only way you can play this server, if you ignore how bad it is.

After about a year I got egged on by a few people to apply to the Events Team. I cracked, applied, and got the job. I never cared about the position, but I'd never apply to something if I wasn't going to do it right. I'm going to be honest though, I was entirely selfish in accepting the job because I had seen it as an opportunity to retain players. Without people around things are just going to end up like Classic, and at that point you can no longer ignore how bad the server is. For once on Graal I just wanted to be able to play the ****ing game with people.

It seems the development staff have always been quite content on ignoring all of the problems the server has too, because every addition to the server over the years has just been adding crap on top of crap. This only stimulates for so long however, and because the the players are no longer getting that (and haven't been for quite some time now) it starts to become a problem you can't escape. When your friends stop logging on, when you start to get a low participation in events, when there's nothing to do BUT host events, you can not just ignore how bad the server is. This is where we are now, and honestly, I can't really see that changing.

Nobody cares about Unholy Nation as a server, because it never was one. It's extremely unfortunate, but we just need someone who will work.

Crono
10-15-2010, 05:58 PM
UN is a terrible server, like many i only play it because it's the last "classic" server left (npulse doesnt count, what a joke of a dead server).

actually i dont even play UN much anymore so w/e. but the staff list is a horrible mess and i've already brought this up before but no one listens, as usual.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 06:18 PM
Rufus, I would work on the server a lot. But the time it would take would probably be 1 or 2 years alone. If someone would help, we could actually make it better.
But as Crono said, "like many i only play it because it's the last 'classic' server left".
I could change everything if I had the rights, but since it's a classic server I shouldn't.
If the server changes so much as a more detailed tileset, osl change, town change, or quest change, it won't be Unholy Nation so much anymore.
But what I 'would' do if I was LAT is update the quests. They are boring as **** and they need to be changed. Though, knowing the head lat, I won't even get hired.
People tell me I have so much potential going to waste and I should do something with it, yet whenever I try and do something I end up getting a storm in my face about how I shouldn't bother with anything. It gets really irritating hearing people calling me an idiot over this stuff.

BigBear3
10-15-2010, 07:36 PM
Mario Party Graal server

I wish!

MysticX2X
10-15-2010, 09:36 PM
I could change everything if I had the rights, but since it's a classic server I shouldn't.
If the server changes so much as a more detailed tileset, osl change, town change, or quest change, it won't be Unholy Nation so much anymore.
But what I 'would' do if I was LAT is update the quests. They are boring as **** and they need to be changed. Though, knowing the head lat, I won't even get hired.

It is a lot harder than you think it would be.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 09:42 PM
It is a lot harder than you think it would be.

I realize that, that is why I said it would take a year or 2 to do this stuff alone.
If I did have some help, it would take 8 months or a year.
But before I did all that, I'd need the actual O.K to make these.
And by O.K, I mean getting hired as LAT.

ff7chocoboknight
10-15-2010, 10:10 PM
Rufus for manager.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 10:11 PM
Rufus for manager.

Agreed, Rufus for manager.
Me for leader of (Noobs Anonymous).

Mark Sir Link
10-15-2010, 10:26 PM
Kevin only plays because it's the closest thing to Classic.

Sounds fair on the surface, but I also worked harder on UN than I ever did on Classic so there has to be something else that drew me in.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 10:33 PM
Sounds fair on the surface, but I also worked harder on UN than I ever did on Classic so there has to be something else that drew me in.

Definately.

ff7chocoboknight
10-15-2010, 10:35 PM
UN is a haven for players looking for a place to go when their favorite server dies.

Classic, Delteria, and N-Pulse players are the majority of the server's players.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 10:36 PM
N-Pulse is alive... in a vegetated state.

Fulg0reSama
10-15-2010, 10:39 PM
N-Pulse is alive... in a vegetated state.

Confirmed, Let's just say it's recuperating from PMV (Past Manager Virus) as I like to call it.

ff7chocoboknight
10-15-2010, 10:42 PM
My point is still valid.

HirakoShinji
10-15-2010, 10:45 PM
Yes, it still is.

MysticX2X
10-15-2010, 11:29 PM
I realize that, that is why I said it would take a year or 2 to do this stuff alone.
If I did have some help, it would take 8 months or a year.
But before I did all that, I'd need the actual O.K to make these.
And by O.K, I mean getting hired as LAT.
Not exactly what I meant. With the amount of staff who do help and disappear thereafter, and the ones who cast no visible sort of support, are the main difficulties. I honestly doubt you can do what you feel should be done all by yourself, in any time frame.

UN is a haven for players looking for a place to go when their favorite server dies.

Classic, Delteria, and N-Pulse players are the majority of the server's players.
Weird, since UN was my first server that I stuck to (with the exception of the malinko era).

jacob_bald6225
10-15-2010, 11:35 PM
UN is a haven for players looking for a place to go when their favorite server dies.

Classic, Delteria, and N-Pulse players are the majority of the server's players.

Maybe UN should stop trying to be something else and start conglomerating the best ideas from servers from the past.

Hiro
10-16-2010, 01:04 AM
it's retarded to start remaking useless quests or focusing on simply events and spouting ridiculousness about how UN's entire focus has been on their events aspect - that's just how far UN has slipped over the past 5 years into the utter crap we see today

see, UN has always had a main focus on sparring. it is only in the last 2-3 years that UN has had a total focus on events rather than sparring, or even PKing and CW. back in the day, those outside levels, the quests, the NPCs, and the events were all secondary to UTC and TTUTC. there was a long time where 60% of the server would be inside tcspar, because in a way, rufus is correct about most everyone not caring about the server itself, since what we really cared about were all the kickass sparrers who were online everyday, not the noobs and social NPC hoarders who had actually created the server and spent all of their time in events or joining guilds with 70 other multiguilders

however, since most everyone who was awesome at sparring has quit, including those who were staff members (the top being NJ as manager), UN has let that aspect of the server just become completely stupid, to the point where there aren't even any real dedicated sparrers left besides perhaps myself and a few others - and this includes all other aspects the server had going

with no other focus besides (in my opinion, crappy) events to get hats/emitter NPCs, what else besides mindless PKing is there on UN? at least CW was presented as the guild wars aspect of the server, but as mystic has made clear, CW hasn't been a real priority but more of a development dead zone; just another lost aspect of the server, albeit the last real attempt at creating another good focus for UN

systems that promote players competing against other players, preferably without needing the assistance of staff members, is what UN's top priority ought to be - sparring and CW are the best examples of these aspects. secondary to those aspects should be events, and then another guild wars system in addition to CW, to create a diversity of guild wars. the last aspect needing any sort of real work should be the levels, and the removal of the current quests altogether. seriously, the last thing UN needs is questing, unless it holds a solid storyline that allows players to acquire items that can be used well in UN's absolute ****-hole of an economy

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 01:14 AM
I see a lot of serious claims about how time was invested in that post without any sort of evidence to support them.

Hiro
10-16-2010, 02:01 AM
I see a lot of serious claims about how time was invested in that post without any sort of evidence to support them.
:confused:

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 02:18 AM
60% of players focused on sparring? I seriously doubt that. I doubt that even 30% of players were focused on that.

ff7chocoboknight
10-16-2010, 03:11 AM
I remember finishing all the "quests" on UN in '07 in 1hr~1hr30min. I don't even have 100 hours on it. I'm usually only on it for at most 15 minutes and then bail. UN has never appealed to me. Make it happen.

jacob_bald6225
10-16-2010, 04:05 AM
I remember finishing all the "quests" on UN in '07 in 1hr~1hr30min. I don't even have 100 hours on it. I'm usually only on it for at most 15 minutes and then bail. UN has never appealed to me. Make it happen.

Make what happen?

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 04:56 AM
Make what happen?

Therein lies the issue. If we simply develop more random things, it wont really help the server long-term. But if we take on huge projects, our Development staff grow bored and quit mid-project. Especially scripters. Once that happens, the next scripter to take on the job has to rewrite the entire thing because "it would be easier that way", and then they quit mid-project as well. That has been the story of UN's large projects over the passed few years in all honesty.

To Hiro, I was always very interested and supportive of CW, as Mystic says I asked him about it pretty regularly. The real issue was the Development Manager did not focus on CW at all. Mystic had to find his own scripters, with the exception of Ben Rain, who approached me about it before he became PWA. This lack of support from his higher admins on the Dev side probably led to a good portion of Mystic's lack of enthusiasm. When I spoke to Luca about it, I was told the scripting would be replaced with another project's framework (the same type of thing I was talking about above), but that never came to fruition either.

Anyhow, Unholy Nation's focus was never on 'Events' or 'Sparring', the only focus the server has ever had was to create things players want, whether it be things such as the rings, or things such as the Rare Items. The real issue is both that either players no long want these items, or cannot get them because of the old playerbase no longer playing and trading actively. From what I recall, trading was more the focus than anything else if we tried to pinpoint something accurately. With the economy in the poor shape that it is in, related to ep duplication largely, players dont want to buy things for the inflated prices. EP and item trading were probably the worst ideas to hit UN, because you no longer had to play events to win event items. That being said, most people loved the item trading and auction houses, so it's a double edged sword.

The conundrum we are in, is that if we focus on large, meaningful projects, they will likely never come to fruition, and if we focus on small, meaningless projects, nobody will be happy, including me. We have to work on a mix of these things in order to prosper is the conclusion I have reached, and is what I am working on implementing now. The remaining issue is getting people who are willing to work on anything for the server nowadays. UN doesnt have the draw of 'most popular' server by numbers like it used to, so we have far less developers interested in it than we used to.

ff7chocoboknight
10-16-2010, 05:18 AM
Make UN appeal to me. A whole server focused on events and sparring is all fine, but what I can't stand is the unorganized mess of a server it is.

I hate UN. I hate Enigma. I hate Bravo. I hate N-Pulse. I hate Delteria. I hate Zodiac. Why? Everything is cramped into the smallest spaces possible. Fix it.

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 05:29 AM
Make UN appeal to me. A whole server focused on events and sparring is all fine, but what I can't stand is the unorganized mess of a server it is.

I hate UN. I hate Enigma. I hate Bravo. I hate N-Pulse. I hate Delteria. I hate Zodiac. Why? Everything is cramped into the smallest spaces possible. Fix it.

That would be a much larger project than just me saying "ok, will do". Fixing the server completely would probably take longer than creating a whole new server from scratch, because there is little-to-no uniformity in a lot of the old systems. Not to say it isnt something we want to work on, just that it's not something that would happen quickly.

fowlplay4
10-16-2010, 05:33 AM
stuff

You've got a 'Dev Manager' who can't finish a damn Newbie Course, fix that.

MysticX2X
10-16-2010, 05:48 AM
Make UN appeal to me. A whole server focused on events and sparring is all fine, but what I can't stand is the unorganized mess of a server it is.

I hate UN. I hate Enigma. I hate Bravo. I hate N-Pulse. I hate Delteria. I hate Zodiac. Why? Everything is cramped into the smallest spaces possible. Fix it.

It's the only server that really hasn't redone itself script-wise to an extent since it's release (as far as i know. No idea how much was redone when the new gmap released).

As Cron-Star has said, the amount of time that it would even take to make the substantial changes UN would need is pretty extensive.

kia345
10-16-2010, 05:52 AM
As Cron-Star has said, the amount of time that it would even take to make the substantial changes UN would need is pretty extensive.

It seems like he's using that as an excuse. That is no reason for them to not still attempt to improve the server.

LordSquirt
10-16-2010, 06:04 AM
=
Anyhow, Unholy Nation's focus was never on 'Events' or 'Sparring', the only focus the server has ever had was to create things players want, whether it be things such as the rings, or things such as the Rare Items.

UN's focus has never been rings or rare items. Most players find the NPCs annoying and lame

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 06:06 AM
That would be a much larger project than just me saying "ok, will do". Fixing the server completely would probably take longer than creating a whole new server from scratch, because there is little-to-no uniformity in a lot of the old systems. Not to say it isnt something we want to work on, just that it's not something that would happen quickly.

Where in that do you see me making an excuse Kia? I said it is something to work on, but it wont happen overnight. In fact, it will take a substantial amount of time. Most of UN's base scripts are either in GS1 or patched GS1 for functionality purposes. We would have to redo the entire server to make it efficient, otherwise it wouldnt be worth working on at all. It'll just break when V7 comes out.

No, that's not a typo. V7, as in the next upgrade after this one.

kia345
10-16-2010, 06:07 AM
UN is all about novel items that are silly for 10 minutes and then lose their appeal and are sold to the highest bidder, lather, rinse, repeat. It was never about the enjoyable experiences that any player was able to take part it, only the rare item-economy!

e. because you posted: It's funny because the whole paragraph you quoted is exactly where it looks like an excuse. And then the new thing you posted along with it looked sort of like the same excuse reiterated. And I'm willing your next post will too!

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 06:08 AM
UN's focus has never been rings or rare items. Most players find the NPCs annoying and lame

That's highly inaccurate. I have played UN fairly consistently for over 6 years, and I can assure you Manta's Rare Items and projects were the focus for a good half of that time at least.

MysticX2X
10-16-2010, 06:11 AM
It seems like he's using that as an excuse. That is no reason for them to not still attempt to improve the server.

That's not what I meant. They should look into improving the server extensively like that. Although the idea of rescripting the server was proposed, and 'started' by Rage/Luca months ago, but never came to fruition as Rage is busy, and Luca is just Luca...

If you ever had a first-person interpretation of UN internally, things are not as easy to accomplish as you would think

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 06:14 AM
@ What I read from you Kia, you have to understand I dont agree with that, it is just what it has been. I cant take blame for what has been going on for long before I became Manager, all I can do is try and fix things from here on..

BigBear3
10-16-2010, 06:31 AM
Hello Absolut_Cron

Crono
10-16-2010, 06:32 AM
Sounds fair on the surface, but I also worked harder on UN than I ever did on Classic so there has to be something else that drew me in.

playercount

nullify
10-16-2010, 07:53 AM
I forget if I've said this (in this thread), but I miss Delteria.

Heroin
10-16-2010, 09:13 AM
Sounds fair on the surface, but I also worked harder on UN than I ever did on Classic so there has to be something else that drew me in.

yeah, the fact that you would crack if you'd lose another graal server apparently.. isn't there anything else in your life you can put your creativity and devotion into? putting effort in this **** is like feeding pearls to pigs :)

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 09:41 AM
yeah, the fact that you would crack if you'd lose another graal server apparently.. isn't there anything else in your life you can put your creativity and devotion into? putting effort in this **** is like feeding pearls to pigs :)

wat

HirakoShinji
10-16-2010, 09:46 AM
Haha, yeah.

Hiro
10-16-2010, 11:59 AM
60% of players focused on sparring? I seriously doubt that. I doubt that even 30% of players were focused on that.
you didn't play UN back then - how would you know?

To Hiro, I was always very interested and supportive of CW, as Mystic says I asked him about it pretty regularly. The real issue was the Development Manager did not focus on CW at all. Mystic had to find his own scripters, with the exception of Ben Rain, who approached me about it before he became PWA. This lack of support from his higher admins on the Dev side probably led to a good portion of Mystic's lack of enthusiasm. When I spoke to Luca about it, I was told the scripting would be replaced with another project's framework (the same type of thing I was talking about above), but that never came to fruition either.

Anyhow, Unholy Nation's focus was never on 'Events' or 'Sparring', the only focus the server has ever had was to create things players want, whether it be things such as the rings, or things such as the Rare Items. The real issue is both that either players no long want these items, or cannot get them because of the old playerbase no longer playing and trading actively. From what I recall, trading was more the focus than anything else if we tried to pinpoint something accurately. With the economy in the poor shape that it is in, related to ep duplication largely, players dont want to buy things for the inflated prices. EP and item trading were probably the worst ideas to hit UN, because you no longer had to play events to win event items. That being said, most people loved the item trading and auction houses, so it's a double edged sword.
you were never a part of the sparring community, much less the sparring community within UN, so you have no idea how much influence the sparring had (or has) on UN. you just don't realize how potent the sparring community is, and your focus on events, useless "rare" manta NPCs, and whatever else only diminish the only other active "event" taking place on UN that has a good portion of player's attention. if you add more systems that allow players to swing swords at one another in a ranked atmosphere (like sparring, or teaming up in CW) then more players will start to appreciate what a classic server is all about, and participate in these events

if UN had more focus on global guilds specifically, you could have an abundant source of competition and incentive that can lead to economic stability

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 12:15 PM
you didn't play UN back then - how would you know?
I wouldn't know for fact but I would assume it's a very safe bet (like 100% safe) to say that only a fraction of players can compete in highly competitive sparring. I can't imagine competitive sparring being the prime focus of 20% of the players.
you were never a part of the sparring community, much less the sparring community within UN, so you have no idea how much influence the sparring had (or has) on UN. you just don't realize how potent the sparring community is, and your focus on events, useless "rare" manta NPCs, and whatever else only diminish the only other active "event" taking place on UN that has a good portion of player's attention. if you add more systems that allow players to swing swords at one another in a ranked atmosphere (like sparring, or teaming up in CW) then more players will start to appreciate what a classic server is all about, and participate in these events

if UN had more focus on global guilds specifically, you could have an abundant source of competition and incentive that can lead to economic stability

Your first two sentences don't even make sense, he was never part of the sparring community despite it being highly influential/"potent"?

Clearly it couldn't have been that influential if he had nothing to do with it.


I am not sure why you are pandering your personal opinions as if they were somehow facts. Just because you liked to do something doesn't mean a majority of players did.

MysticX2X
10-16-2010, 12:16 PM
I wouldn't say 60 percent of the population focused on sparring, although 25-30 percent probably is a good estimate.

UN, in my opinion, has been a server where you can do whatever, and interact with whoever. (We have guns and cars people...) It was never really only sparring-focused, and I wouldn't suspect that to be LiquidIces intent either. I enjoyed collecting the rare items, back when they were actually rare. I also enjoyed the events when more people played instead of teaming with 10 other friends. These among many other things.

Hiro is right in the regards that UN really needs to focus on improving the competitive elements of the server that it used to have. Sadly, that is not the current development focus.

xXziroXx
10-16-2010, 01:39 PM
It'll just break when V7 comes out.

No, that's not a typo. V7, as in the next upgrade after this one.

You made two errors with that post. One, no client in itself has ever broken a lot of scripts -- GS2 in itself did however, but GS2 is far superior than it's successor anyways so who cares.

Second of all, v7 is not the next client no, as v6 isn't even out yet. We're currently in v5 and v5.3.


I'd also like to point out that PWA has done an extremely ****ty job with something they said after the release of GS2; that all Classic servers were to fully convert to GS2 within x amount of time or be taken off the list. It's been 5 years now, wtf.

ff7chocoboknight
10-16-2010, 03:10 PM
Why do I still have wNPCs from 2006 that no longer work? Why are there broken player houses all over the server? Why can't UN's development team strive to improve UN? I think all of these questions have similar answers.

fowlplay4
10-16-2010, 07:36 PM
Why do I still have wNPCs from 2006 that no longer work? Why are there broken player houses all over the server? Why can't UN's development team strive to improve UN? I think all of these questions have similar answers.

It is too le hard. QQ.

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 08:43 PM
You made two errors with that post. One, no client in itself has ever broken a lot of scripts -- GS2 in itself did however, but GS2 is far superior than it's successor anyways so who cares.

Second of all, v7 is not the next client no, as v6 isn't even out yet. We're currently in v5 and v5.3.


I'd also like to point out that PWA has done an extremely ****ty job with something they said after the release of GS2; that all Classic servers were to fully convert to GS2 within x amount of time or be taken off the list. It's been 5 years now, wtf.

Ok, first of all, V6 has already caused issues with the GUIs. You are wrong there. Second of all, my point was that every version update brings issues that need to be addressed. I wasnt stating V7 was next, but that the issues that get fixed for V6 will probably have to be altered again in V7 and V8 and so on, because servers implement GS2 differently for different things.

As far as the PWA enforcing GS2, I am pretty sure it mostly has to do with functionality. UN "functions" with GS2, it's just patched GS1 though. What I am saying is we would need to organize the server firstly, then rewrite it into complete GS2 instead of patching broken scripts, otherwise we wont get anywhere.

@Chocoboknight What wNPCs are you speaking of specifically? There arent any broken playerhouses I am aware of, only ones that were removed. Lastly, UN's development team ALWAYS strives to make UN better, the issue is that there isnt much organization in the teams. That stems from long before I was Manager though. If a Manager quits or gets removed, the server's focus tends to drastically change, with people who have different ideas about what is most important. We dont have Managers stay long enough to work on one main goal, with the exception of Streety, who was removed for broken promises or something similar to that.

kia345
10-16-2010, 08:53 PM
That stems from long before I was Manager though. If a Manager quits or gets removed, the server's focus tends to drastically change, with people who have different ideas about what is most important.

So what your saying is, UN has no purpose, no theme, no function or background. It exists purely as a playroom for management and their cohorts, without any adherence to a tangible, or even predictable, future? It is dedicated to nothing, and instead serves as something for the administration to mold to their liking, only to toss everything aside when a bigger kid comes into the sandbox and takes over?

MysticX2X
10-16-2010, 09:03 PM
So what your saying is, UN has no purpose, no theme, no function or background. It exists purely as a playroom for management and their cohorts, without any adherence to a tangible, or even predictable, future? It is dedicated to nothing, and instead serves as something for the administration to mold to their liking, only to toss everything aside when a bigger kid comes into the sandbox and takes over?

What I've noticed from you in just about every thread is that you take one twisted idea and stick with it for the whole duration of your post with no sort of rationality whatsoever. It's pretty unhealthy thinking.

No, that is not what UN has been, or what he meant. (Or so I would assume) Every Manager has a different approach on how they want to improve the server, but it isn't easy to work off of what other managements left behind as it may be incomplete/a huge mess. UN doesn't have a theme; UN is a server where you're free to do whatever there is to offer. Well it's theme is Classic gameplay somewhat.

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 09:08 PM
So what your saying is, UN has no purpose, no theme, no function or background. It exists purely as a playroom for management and their cohorts, without any adherence to a tangible, or even predictable, future? It is dedicated to nothing, and instead serves as something for the administration to mold to their liking, only to toss everything aside when a bigger kid comes into the sandbox and takes over?

No? I am saying every Manager has different ideas from the previous management. I am pretty sure that is the same on every server though. The difference being we have had a lot of management changes in a short period of time. Keep in mind management went in the order Spryte (Malinko), Croweather, Sub, Streety, Backdraft, Gamerkid then me in a period of 2 years, having streety as around a year and a half of that time alone. There was not really enough time for stability in any other management team than Streety's after Malinko and Spryte were removed.

Also, I am not saying I agree with the way the server has worked in the past, merely that it has worked that way.

fowlplay4
10-16-2010, 09:14 PM
No? I am saying every Manager has different ideas from the previous management. I am pretty sure that is the same on every server though. The difference being we have had a lot of management changes in a short period of time. Keep in mind management went in the order Spryte (Malinko), Croweather, Sub, Streety, Backdraft, Gamerkid then me in a period of 2 years, having streety as around a year and a half of that time alone. There was not really enough time for stability in any other management team than Streety's after Malinko and Spryte were removed.

Also, I am not saying I agree with the way the server has worked in the past, merely that it has worked that way.

aka not man enough to fix UN.

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 09:29 PM
I don't like the blame your predecessors approach, it's not like you were some peon on the chain of command during their reigns.

You certainly weren't accomplishing anything while PR Manager - in fact, PR and Staff relations got wildly out of hand while you sat idly by and did nothing.

I am still confused by what merit you reached Manager.

All I've seen in this thread is "Take my word for it that things will be better, but I won't offer any evidence to show that I've contributed to making this better in the past, nor will I show you any evidence that things are happening to make things better for the future.'

Absolut_Crono
10-16-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't like the blame your predecessors approach, it's not like you were some peon on the chain of command during their reigns.

You certainly weren't accomplishing anything while PR Manager - in fact, PR and Staff relations got wildly out of hand while you sat idly by and did nothing.

I am still confused by what merit you reached Manager.

All I've seen in this thread is "Take my word for it that things will be better, but I won't offer any evidence to show that I've contributed to making this better in the past, nor will I show you any evidence that things are happening to make things better for the future.'

I was FAQ Admin. What do you think I could control during that period of time? FAQs? When I became Vic's Assistant, I handled FAQ and GPs, when I became PR Manager I dealt with PR issues more than staff in-fighting. Also, you say relations got wildy out of hand, yet you give no proof of any of that either. Unless you are going to say "I saw it all!", in which case I shall remind you that memory becomes skewered with time. What exactly do you expect for a FAQ Admin to change realistically though? I have not had much say in a lot of things in the past, and I am honestly trying my best to make positive changes now.

If you want to really be analytical though, what positive things did Backdraft do before the PWA replaced Streety with him? He hadnt done much of anything besides tag along with Streety on Skype at the time. All he had were a bunch of ideas, same as me, yet the PWA saw him as a better alternative to the active management.

Mark Sir Link
10-16-2010, 10:02 PM
I was FAQ Admin. What do you think I could control during that period of time? FAQs? When I became Vic's Assistant, I handled FAQ and GPs, when I became PR Manager I dealt with PR issues more than staff in-fighting. Also, you say relations got wildy out of hand, yet you give no proof of any of that either. Unless you are going to say "I saw it all!", in which case I shall remind you that memory becomes skewered with time. What exactly do you expect for a FAQ Admin to change realistically though? I have not had much say in a lot of things in the past, and I am honestly trying my best to make positive changes now.

What evidence do I have of relations going sour while you were PR Manager? I don't know, just several RC logs I can't directly paste here but have been passed around well enough.

You know, logs where you yourself start threatening staff with bans and saying you want to punch them in the face for disagreeing with you defending one of your Graal bud's when I know at least one PWA member said he should have been banned.

Not to mention RC just about every night being a gigantic argument between several staff members while you just sort of ignored it.

If you want to really be analytical though, what positive things did Backdraft do before the PWA replaced Streety with him? He hadnt done much of anything besides tag along with Streety on Skype at the time. All he had were a bunch of ideas, same as me, yet the PWA saw him as a better alternative to the active management.

straw man

kia345
10-16-2010, 10:09 PM
No, that is not what UN has been, or what he meant.

It's exactly what he said he though. He points out that UN's short comings are caused by various exploits the previous managers brought about. Don't blame me for not beating around the bush, if you guys want anything done, you need to be blunt and recognize the problem: in this case, the problem is a string of inefficient, directionless management.

And you're confusing not being gentle for not being rational. If you honestly think I'm being irrational - or ever have been - then I'd say it's a safe bet that the better portion of your brain is probably dripping onto your shoulder right about now.

No? I am saying every Manager has different ideas from the previous management.

Yeah, that's what I said. New management comes in and then UN is a clean slate and they do what they want. The server is being treated as a sandbox for them to build up as they see fit. If you want to have the smallest sense of being professional, UN needs a direction. A direction that transcends management and acts as the basis for the server. Era has that. Zodiac has that. Even with alternating managers, you can still log on the server a year later and have a pretty rough idea on what to expect. On UN, you don't have the feeling after several weeks.

MysticX2X
10-16-2010, 10:29 PM
It's exactly what he said he though. He points out that UN's short comings are caused by various exploits the previous managers brought about. Don't blame me for not beating around the bush, if you guys want anything done, you need to be blunt and recognize the problem: in this case, the problem is inefficient, directionless management.
Of course they are, but that is not easily fixable. Malinko did a ton of damage during his period that had to be cleaned up/corrected by following managements. As I have iterated before, ideas by past-management are hard to follow up on as some difficulty approaches. Streety wanted to finish pet-world and the achievement system as his main focuses before going on to other things. Pet world became a mess with different scripters, and the achievement system was finally released by GK a few months after Streety was removed. Backdraft wanted to focus on the noob course, new quests, shrinking the OW somewhat, but none of those really went past a thought except for the noob course which is STILL being developed to this day. GK focused on smaller things, but wanted to improve his achievement system and see CastleWars get done after he found me a scripter. I know Cron-Star wanted to see the development of CastleWars become finished too but I was fired by Luca/Khyber, as well as seeing other things finished. Development is headed by Luca, so any development complaints really should be headed at him, who Luca and one PWA thinks is doing a good job at.

I don't think you can expect content lineage from UN. As I, and probably others, have said, UN was created for the purpose to do a wide variety of things that weren't always uniform.

There was really only Cron-star or Luca to choose from for Manager when GK stepped down. You don't want to see Luca as Manager...

And you're confusing not being gentle for not being rational. If you honestly think I'm being irrational - or ever have been - then I'd say it's a safe bet that the better portion of your brain is probably dripping onto your shoulder right about now.
Really? Because all I saw you do is derive your own fixated point of view and rant about it for a whole paragraph, when all he said was that Managers have different approaches to how the server should go due to said complications I have said above.

Yeah, that's what I said. New management comes in and then UN is a clean slate and they do what they want. The server is being treated as a sandbox for them to build up as they see fit. If you want to have the smallest sense of being professional, UN needs a direction. A direction that transcends management and acts as the basis for the server. Era has that. Zodiac has that. Even with alternating managers, you can still log on the server a year later and have a pretty rough idea on what to expect. On UN, you don't have the feeling after several weeks.
I've been expecting Era to reset for nearly 3 years, what is your point.

12171217
10-16-2010, 11:38 PM
What UN needs is a manager with huge balls to just scrap everything and pull something decent out of his gigantic butthole.

Hiro
10-17-2010, 12:20 AM
I wouldn't know for fact but I would assume it's a very safe bet (like 100% safe) to say that only a fraction of players can compete in highly competitive sparring. I can't imagine competitive sparring being the prime focus of 20% of the players.


Your first two sentences don't even make sense, he was never part of the sparring community despite it being highly influential/"potent"?

Clearly it couldn't have been that influential if he had nothing to do with it.


I am not sure why you are pandering your personal opinions as if they were somehow facts. Just because you liked to do something doesn't mean a majority of players did.
I wouldn't say 60 percent of the population focused on sparring, although 25-30 percent probably is a good estimate.

UN, in my opinion, has been a server where you can do whatever, and interact with whoever. (We have guns and cars people...) It was never really only sparring-focused, and I wouldn't suspect that to be LiquidIces intent either. I enjoyed collecting the rare items, back when they were actually rare. I also enjoyed the events when more people played instead of teaming with 10 other friends. These among many other things.

Hiro is right in the regards that UN really needs to focus on improving the competitive elements of the server that it used to have. Sadly, that is not the current development focus.

stop thinking about the current staff - back then, Absolut_Crono was not staff, and did not even play or if he did he never sparred. but, a large majority of the staff of UN did (like 50%) and my percentage of sparrers on UN includes those players who used to be able to hop from server to server sparring in different tournaments - aside from perhaps delteria, UN was always the center of where sparring happened. clearly just because our current manager doesn't seem to enjoy or appreciate what sparring does on UN (and you can say that for the past 5 managers now) it's influence on the players and past players who have quit seeing the dwindling state of what servers offer for sparrers, is quite real

and besides, i'm talking very generally when i say UN needs more competitive focus - i said we need to be able to swing swords at one another, because that's what a classic server is pretty much all about. sparring has just always been the best form of this competition

i mean seriously, what the hell else are you going to update that exemplifies the classic server style? something is going wrong when the focus of a classic server moves away from the sword

jacob_bald6225
10-17-2010, 12:39 AM
What UN needs is a manager with huge balls
Case:
I volunteer to be UN manager!

kia345
10-17-2010, 12:45 AM
Really? Because all I saw you do is derive your own fixated point of view and rant about it for a whole paragraph, when all he said was that Managers have different approaches to how the server should go due to said complications I have said above.


That doesn't mean anything is wrong or irrational; I think you're just spreading things too thin. As I said, beating around the bush talking about what's wrong and how this is all bad, without actually having any idea where to go from here, the same short coming the previous managers had with their shortsighted ideas that failed to revitalize the server.

He recognizes part of UN's issue is the managers constantly having their own little projects. Good, we know that. There's no reason to keep passing these explanations back and forth. The rational thing for him to do now would be to announce how he is going to remedy that. Because right now, all I've seen is "yeah, x is wrong and some people did some other stuff bad", then you guys carrying on with that and who's to blame, but no explanations as to how he will be any different. He's just pointed out that he knew there were a lot of imperfections that will be hard to fix, and you know what vibe that gives off? The vibe that he's just going to follow them down that road, doing more little things to "fix" it just as everyone else has.

UN is outdated and the damage has been done, there's a point where you can choose to keep throwing out small, novel updates (omg pets and achievements wow) to hide it or admit an overhaul is needed and actually put forth the effort and do it.


Also, huge balls.

ff7chocoboknight
10-17-2010, 03:49 AM
I'd vote for Zippy on anything he runs for.

Mark Sir Link
10-17-2010, 03:53 AM
At the very least I would appreciate if the PWA would create some sort of rules for players to start a PWA review of a server's management (such as a certain number of players requesting it) because I am certain that at any reasonable threshold, you would find that that is what the players want to happen here.

I don't think the PWA just deciding to do it on their own volition is a great idea.

ff7chocoboknight
10-17-2010, 03:58 AM
At the very least I would appreciate if the PWA would create some sort of rules for players to start a PWA review of a server's management (such as a certain number of players requesting it) because I am certain that at any reasonable threshold, you would find that that is what the players want to happen here.

I don't think the PWA just deciding to do it on their own volition is a great idea.

I second this notion.

POWER TO THE PLAYERS!

kia345
10-17-2010, 04:00 AM
I second this notion.

POWER TO THE PLAYERS!

I have it from a reliable source that they do not trust the players' input

ff7chocoboknight
10-17-2010, 04:05 AM
Pfft. Aren't they players, too?

HirakoShinji
10-17-2010, 04:17 AM
Pfft. Aren't they players, too?

lol chocoboknight, they are.

Mark Sir Link
10-17-2010, 04:56 AM
Brief summary of thread so far:

Cron is blaming predecessors for current state of Unholy Nation. Always an awful excuse when it is used, especially when he is also claiming UN managers always shift direction rather than following the course of their predecessor. I'm not sure how what the people did before him is relevant if his plan is to shift direction from what they did.

I have asked several times by what merit Cron reached his job, and the only thing I've heard back from him on that issue is the fact that Backdraft was also equally unqualified. So ignoring that straw man, I draw the conclusion that he reached his position through nepotism and nothing else.

I have also yet to see him speak honestly or truthfully, instead dancing around any sort of complaint or issue anyone has brought up.

And I still have no idea what he intends to do as manager, I only keep seeing give him more time to get things done.


I am almost amazed at how deliberately unhelpful the PWA is being both here and through other means of communication; then I remember this is Graal.

fowlplay4
10-17-2010, 05:01 AM
lol chocoboknight, they are.

You're such a poser...

ff7chocoboknight
10-17-2010, 05:01 AM
Guys, my name is my title. Call me Skyzer, please.


I've come to the conclusion that UN is incapable of change, and all you can do is hope for something terrible to happen on UN that causes extreme change.

jacob_bald6225
10-17-2010, 09:33 AM
I'd vote for Zippy on anything he runs for.

I appreciate the support ff7chocoboknight.Skyzer

Mark Sir Link
10-17-2010, 11:07 AM
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4250/resignation.png

Funnily enough, despite even mentioning a level by name, I still have control to the level I mention and several others.

I probably still enjoy this the most of anything since it was entirely within Luca's hands to keep me around.


you sure about everything?
Going to miss having you around :\

Crono
10-17-2010, 08:41 PM
can someone list the developers etc on UN?

Rufus
10-17-2010, 09:13 PM
can someone list the developers etc on UN?

Development Manager Luca
Scripting Team Jazz (oo_jazz_oo)
Alex (born2kill)
Dwarfy (thatdwarf)
Hell Raven (Kristi)
MysticalDragon
Graphics Team Nike (Riku21)
LightDamage
Loomis Knoble (lilian7592)
Chakrah
Levels Team Khyber
iBeatz
C2 (javierkid)
Exil (Kazuma)
Ghost Pirate
Gani Team Dama (dark_mater_s)
Sound Effects Team Core (Super_Matt89)
Developers Joe
Bane
SubZero (doomboy00)
Streety (SwimChao)
GK (Gamerkid7)
Rage (_Zelph)

Crono
10-17-2010, 09:14 PM
now can people start naming what each person is actually up to? because im lookin at most going "lolwat"

kia345
10-17-2010, 09:18 PM
Dama got mad at me for asking why most of his ganis only had 1-2 frames :(

Rufus
10-17-2010, 09:44 PM
now can people start naming what each person is actually up to? because im lookin at most going "lolwat"

30% of them are working towards this:

Halloween content that should be released within the next 2 weeks, in order to allow Halloween to last a few days, in classic UN fashion.

GK has been doing his achievements stuff and ET content with me. As for the rest, I don't know.

nullify
10-18-2010, 11:58 AM
GK has been doing his achievements stuff and ET content with me. As for the rest, I don't know.
Whenever someone says "GK" it makes me think of actual activity on Kingdoms. I'm always wrong.

Crono
10-18-2010, 12:53 PM
activity on Kingdoms

doesn't exist.

HirakoShinji
10-18-2010, 01:36 PM
doesn't exist.

Anymore.

Crono
10-18-2010, 02:16 PM
Anymore.

thus the present tense.

HirakoShinji
10-18-2010, 03:43 PM
thus the present tense.

Yupp.

Crono
10-18-2010, 05:50 PM
Yupp.

My post implied that there once was an active Kingdoms, making your "Anymore" post useless. Unless pointing out the obvious is your thing, then nvm.

kia345
10-18-2010, 05:59 PM
doesn't exist.

Careful, you'll get banned from their subforums!

HirakoShinji
10-19-2010, 12:16 AM
Oh gorshness....
Yes, pointing out the obvious is like having an orgasm for me.

Mark Sir Link
10-20-2010, 12:03 AM
Are you serious? These guys are allowed to manage a Classic Tab server?

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6326/noclass.png

Luca literally has no class, and after I read that post I replied saying

"Shame they won't do the same with you."

My post got deleted, his remains. This is just disgusting, staff are allowed to harass and provoke players, but players can't do the same to staff?

This is extremely ridiculous.

DustyPorViva
10-20-2010, 12:06 AM
Are you serious? These guys are allowed to manage a Classic Tab server?

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6326/noclass.png

Luca literally has no class, and after I read that post I replied saying

"Shame they won't do the same with you."

My post got deleted, his remains. This is just disgusting, staff are allowed to harass and provoke players, but players can't do the same to staff?

This is extremely ridiculous.

Just like the official Graal forums!

Fulg0reSama
10-20-2010, 12:08 AM
Just like the official Graal forums!

I know right?

SwimChao
10-20-2010, 12:40 AM
I think it's a generalization to say that all of UN's staff can do that. The truth is, plenty of staff get in trouble for it. I don't know what lets Luca slip through the cracks and make comments like that, though.

Fulg0reSama
10-20-2010, 12:50 AM
I think it's a generalization to say that all of UN's staff can do that. The truth is, plenty of staff get in trouble for it. I don't know what lets Luca slip through the cracks and make comments like that, though.

Power trip?

SwimChao
10-20-2010, 01:01 AM
Power trip?

Something along those lines, I guess. I won't speculate.

I know it seems to me that he's been getting away with a lot since GK promoted him.

MysticX2X
10-20-2010, 01:08 AM
My words on this forum and the general productivity of UN doesn't mandate any retort from me.

Funny thing is that he says that after disappearing for a week without notice

Cloven
10-20-2010, 01:09 AM
I know it seems to me that he's been getting away with a lot since GK promoted him.

Many people get away with too many things for too many different reasons (most of them being of a negative nature). The screenshot'ed comment involving Luca, in fairness, is rather tame by historical comparison. This has long been the case in general, and, while certainly noticeable on UN the problem is certainly not unique to UN.

The fact of the matter is: How much respect/professionalism/accountability/etc. can any of use really expect on Graal? (Note I am not asking how much we probably should expect, which is a whole different issue altogether).

Hiro
10-22-2010, 10:28 PM
Many people get away with too many things for too many different reasons (most of them being of a negative nature). The screenshot'ed comment involving Luca, in fairness, is rather tame by historical comparison. This has long been the case in general, and, while certainly noticeable on UN the problem is certainly not unique to UN.

The fact of the matter is: How much respect/professionalism/accountability/etc. can any of use really expect on Graal? (Note I am not asking how much we probably should expect, which is a whole different issue altogether).while we may not expect it from many server staff, i'd think most expect a higher level of maturity from the PWA who are asked to solve these immature server staff problems

xXziroXx
10-22-2010, 11:28 PM
while we may not expect it from many server staff, i'd think most expect a higher level of maturity from the PWA who are asked to solve these immature server staff problems

Has anyone even PMed them about it? You're not going to get anything out of threads like this you know.

SlikRick
10-23-2010, 12:50 AM
while we may not expect it from many server staff, i'd think most expect a higher level of maturity from the PWA who are asked to solve these immature server staff problems

Why is it PWA's problem to deal with staff issues? It is well within Cron-Star's power to remove and correct these staff issues.

Fulg0reSama
10-23-2010, 01:32 AM
Why is it PWA's problem to deal with staff issues? It is well within Cron-Star's power to remove and correct these staff issues.

It is their problem if Cron-star sits and lets the problem fester.

SlikRick
10-23-2010, 01:40 AM
It is their problem if Cron-star sits and lets the problem fester.

No that does not mean PWA has to step in. They could easily just contact Cron by himself in a PM, Forum message or other form of communication, telling him that he needs to get his staff under control or they will step in.

Fulg0reSama
10-23-2010, 01:46 AM
No that does not mean PWA has to step in. They could easily just contact Cron by himself in a PM, Forum message or other form of communication, telling him that he needs to get his staff under control or they will step in.

Just from pure observation this problem has been for a small while. I agree they should give him the first and final warning about this predicament.

xXziroXx
10-23-2010, 01:59 AM
Just from pure observation this problem has been for a small while. I agree they should give him the first and final warning about this predicament.

What makes you think that they haven't done that yet? Usually there is a lot more things going on behind the scenes than what players think.

Fulg0reSama
10-23-2010, 02:04 AM
What makes you think that they haven't done that yet? Usually there is a lot more things going on behind the scenes than what players think.

This is graal, If you think there's more deph to their procedures than "Hey you need to straighten up" "k." than sure There's a lot more than I think going on behind the scenes other than non important jibberish.

kia345
10-23-2010, 02:04 AM
Usually there is a lot more things going on behind the scenes than what players think.

Usually that's stupid and deprives the players of the needed invisible hand that should exist in management of an online community, particularly the one that is player run at the lower levels.

xXziroXx
10-23-2010, 02:16 AM
This is graal, If you think there's more deph to their procedures than "Hey you need to straighten up" "k." than sure There's a lot more than I think going on behind the scenes other than non important jibberish.

I was around during Maloria's mess in 2005 that Houdini tried cleaning up, Clash's removal on Valikorlia and don't even get me started on all the things I was around for during my time on Zodiac before, during and after being Manager.

That experience tells me that there is a hell of a lot more things going on than what people think.

Fulg0reSama
10-23-2010, 02:20 AM
I was around during Maloria's mess in 2005 that Houdini tried cleaning up, Clash's removal on Valikorlia and don't even get me started on all the things I was around for during my time on Zodiac before, during and after being Manager.

That experience tells me that there is a hell of a lot more things going on than what people think.

I've got experience in the RC and dealing of people too. Maybe our experiences differ but when you boil it right down there's not as much to it as you would like to believe. It's all purely decision based on both ends, maybe some more complex than others but it's all the same.

Mark Sir Link
10-23-2010, 03:37 AM
I can't understand anyone who says Luca is doing a terrible job but Absolut_Crono is doing fine.

Isn't Absolut_Crono Luca's boss? Can't he like, remove him?

kia345
10-23-2010, 04:00 AM
But then who will make the colorful particle effects and plant them in TC?

fowlplay4
10-23-2010, 04:28 AM
But then who will make the colorful particle effects and plant them in TC?

Probably Yen, can't go wrong with some rainbow script influence on a server with a exploitable playercount.

Imperialistic
10-23-2010, 07:24 PM
Calani playing this role as "Luca" isn't working out so much.

Mark Sir Link
10-25-2010, 09:47 AM
apparently UN's management is now attempting to demonize me or something since out of the blue I am being harassed by their pals about what they've been "told by crono, luca, and khyber"

they should do a better job though and not tell players **** like "CakeDogs and PresentCats" was an event I made. I mean, come on guys, if you want to make me look like the person who doesn't/didn't do work or only output poor quality work, you could do it much better than that.

I haven't really called Luca's ability into question but how is that 15 triggeraction per sword swing working out for you, pal?

EDIT: More on that, I find it odd that someone who would code something like that to begin with is the head of all development on UN to begin with. The fact that he added it and then left it there when players were suffering tremendous lag issues whenever they were hit by a sword is even worse.

jorollychu
10-25-2010, 09:55 AM
kevin if someone brought up your history on other servers they wouldnt even need to make things up about u

Mark Sir Link
10-26-2010, 01:03 AM
This whole Halloween world event is a joke, and how the Manager and Dev Manager of UN believe this work to be of an acceptable standard is pretty indicative of their inability.

The whole Pumpkin Carving Contest was awful, there was nearly a 2 week submission time for entry and about 20 minutes in which to vote, and from what I understand the winners haven't even gotten prizes since the management has changed their mind.

I'm not sure how it's even legal that this Pumpkin Flashbang requires players to spend in game currency to disable. Really? A bright white flash on their screen that can be spammed by players working together? Graal might want to add a warning for epileptics since the only way to disable it is to spend time playing and potentially running the risk of exposure to it.

Zombie infection - maybe the worse release so far, released without any sort of consideration for what it might effect (ruined events like Typido and a few others) and doesn't even work well, the triggeraction seems to be put about .1 tiles away from the player so unless you're right on top of your target, it doesn't work.


The management has certainly risen to the occasion of showing how inept they are, I can only hope the PWA might actually stop ignoring the problems and do something.

jorollychu
10-26-2010, 01:50 AM
The management has certainly risen to the occasion of showing how inept they are, I can only hope the PWA might actually stop ignoring the problems and do something.

Haha good luck with that buddy. The PWA is completely aware of what's wrong with UN and chooses to ignore it. Ben used to openly discuss the problems with UN management, but as soon as he became a junior PWA he suddenly became oblivious to what's going on over there? I find that hard to believe and think his relationship with Luca is more likely to be the cause of his inaction.

MysticX2X
10-26-2010, 03:42 AM
Has anyone submitted a formal complaint yet, or what.

BigBear3
10-26-2010, 03:59 AM
Shouldn't this be better than a formal complaint?

Fulg0reSama
10-26-2010, 04:02 AM
Shouldn't this be better than a formal complaint?

It would be if anyone gave a damn to read it.

kia345
10-26-2010, 04:17 AM
UN's classy forums are the only ones that matter, these ones are for nerds with no lives, right Warhawk?

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 06:04 AM
To be completely honest I took you serious for a little while, and was concerned. I was worried about how you were treated, and I was worried about how the server was being run.

You've all said some things I agree with in this thread. However, now you're all just letting out steam and being pricks because things didn't go your way.

It's no longer about a bigger issue, if it ever even was.

Frankly disgusted even reading this.

Fulg0reSama
10-26-2010, 06:14 AM
To be completely honest I took you serious for a little while, and was concerned. I was worried about how you were treated, and I was worried about how the server was being run.

You've all said some things I agree with in this thread. However, now you're all just letting out steam and being pricks because things didn't go your way.

It's no longer about a bigger issue, if it ever even was.

Frankly disgusted even reading this.

I understand what you're saying Streety. We're all from different parts of this game, We're definitely not all one big family so it's bound to come to bickering when there's nothing left that's necessary to say in a topic like this :p

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 06:17 AM
I understand what you're saying Streety. We're all from different parts of this game, We're definitely not all one big family so it's bound to come to bickering when there's nothing left that's necessary to say in a topic like this :p

It's just a little disheartening for people who actually are trying to do something. You guys are effectively doing the same thing that was done to you, in essence, by dragging this topic on.

On a side note: You can no longer be a zombie on ET center, Events, or spar.

xnervNATx
10-26-2010, 06:25 AM
same town..same hats..same halloween events, no wonder the playercount is going down

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 06:37 AM
same town..same hats..same halloween events, no wonder the playercount is going down

Same events? Same hats?

The only recurring thing is the theme of the town, and the Halloween shop where you can buy items from past years. Greatly confused by your comment.

Couldn't you at least make sense and prod at how annoying the flashbang is?

Mark Sir Link
10-26-2010, 06:42 AM
To be completely honest I took you serious for a little while, and was concerned. I was worried about how you were treated, and I was worried about how the server was being run.

You've all said some things I agree with in this thread. However, now you're all just letting out steam and being pricks because things didn't go your way.

It's no longer about a bigger issue, if it ever even was.

Frankly disgusted even reading this.

lol, so you agreed with it until I critiqued some things you had a hand in? No need to confirm/deny, your neg rep does the job well enough.

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 06:47 AM
lol, so you agreed with it until I critiqued some things you had a hand in?

No, note I haven't made a post in this topic for a long time.

I agreed with the underlying point of the topic. I disagree with you acting like a toddler :cry::cry: crying about every tiny thing, and trying to use it as leverage to get your way.

You're just being a jackass.

PS. Fairly certain I haven't given you any reputation points at all. I did rep down nervnat though.

Mark Sir Link
10-26-2010, 06:51 AM
No, note I haven't made a post in this topic for a long time.

I agreed with the underlying point of the topic. I disagree with you acting like a toddler :cry::cry: crying about every tiny thing, and trying to use it as leverage to get your way.

You're just being a jackass.

I'm inclined to believe this since you neg repped me for a post critical of your work, and felt the need to post here and even harass me on player about it.

Are you trying to tell me that your releases were well thought out or planned? Players are still walking on walls and moving backwards as zombies, and obviously no consideration was placed on what these changes might do to Town Center Spar or Events.

I don't know why you are taking it so personally, but I do find it sort of like "acting like a toddler". I know there are many people with a critical eye who are willing to test out abstract details of stuff people are working on, because I ran nearly everything I made by them and had them work on it. I also asked for players to beta test things constantly before release, and as a result, was able to avoid any sort of major game stoppage like this.

You may try to justify what you did as "releasing something to the players" but it feels rushed and not worked very hard on, especially when when they are as game breaking as some of these updates were.


http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1317/repc.png

I can't prove it was you, but I know the administrators here have been willing to reveal who left negative rep that is considered rude in the past.

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 06:58 AM
I'm inclined to believe this since you neg repped me for a post critical of your work, and felt the need to post here and even harass me on player about it.

Are you trying to tell me that your releases were well thought out or planned? Players are still walking on walls and moving backwards as zombies, and obviously no consideration was placed on what these changes might do to Town Center Spar or Events.

I don't know why you are taking it so personally, but I do find it sort of like "acting like a toddler". I know there are many people with a critical eye who are willing to test out abstract details of stuff people are working on, because I ran nearly everything I made by them and had them work on it. I also asked for players to beta test things constantly before release, and as a result, was able to avoid any sort of major game stoppage like this.

You may try to justify what you did as "releasing something to the players" but it feels rushed and not worked very hard on, especially when when they are as game breaking as some of these updates were.

Then you can believe that, and I'll give you the negative rep tomorrow to fill the hole.

I never one time argued the facts that there were bugs with the systems. Went about fixing them as best as I could immediately after reading the post, too.

I could sit here and try to poke the verbal knife at you personally too, but none of this has anything to do with what I said.

You're being a jackass in the way you're complaining and crying about everything and trying to use it to your advantage. Like I said, I agreed with the beginning of this topic. Now all I get out of this is a lot of :cry::cry::cry::cry:.

That's up to administrators to reveal who negative repped you. But it certainly wasn't me. I'm starting to want to, though.

PS. The BOOnades have also been nerfed down a bit.

Mark Sir Link
10-26-2010, 07:14 AM
I'm not sure why you're trying to discredit me by calling my posts offensive and saying I'm crying. I would think that's something you get used to after awhile on Graal, since players seem to take issue with just about every update, no?

Hell, I know from experience that players will even frown upon an update widely considered to be useful/good for some personal reason. Snoop413 asked for an option to hide the forum options from what I can only assume was some sort of personal vendetta, considering according to his player flags, he began to use some of the provided options.

However, I don't know why you think I'm making this personal. Every issue I have noted in this thread is entirely legitimate. We're both quite aware that the zombie infection allows players to walk on walls and until just recently allowed disruption in events and spars. We both know that the flashbang NPC is potentially life threatening to any players who might have epilepsy.

These events have passed and I hope will be a good learning point for the people involved in their creation and release and will prevent similar things from happening again, but if no one had brought these issues up, would anyone have learned from these mistakes?

EDIT: And I just saw a message saying that purchasing of protection for the flashbangs has been refunded and this coverage is now included for free, and I appreciate that change very much. However, the wording left me confused as to whether or not it was free for all players or only those who had spent 10 EP on the original protection, because I firmly believe that with an effect like this, all players should have immunity to it for free and that the ability to turn it off should be much more advertised.

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 07:23 AM
To be honest, I appreciate that you brought them up. I'll admit, even though I said I wasn't through PMs, I was a little bit offended. Only because I was actually trying to put something out for the holiday, regardless of how tiny it was. That's no excuse for incompetence, and I should have definitely considered the bugs in the zombie infection.

It was even a little unjust of me to pick at your tone, because that's something not easily defined through text.

Here are a list of things Jazz and I changed tonight:
• Made it so people can't be zombies in ET Center, Spar and Events levels

• Fixed a bug in regards to Zombies customized speed conflicting with the speed adjustment when under a bush.

• Nerfed the flashbang weapon significantly

• Refunded players for the protection from "BOOnades" and made it a free feature in the protection weapon


Not everything can be covered in closed testing. Sometimes it takes the community to find the bugs that are going to be exploited.

kia345
10-26-2010, 07:26 AM
Can zombies still walk through walls if they're going backwards and grabbing?


Because I totally wrecked Oasa's win with that.

Imperialistic
10-26-2010, 07:27 AM
Kev, no offense; Streety and who ever else helped the construction of this years Halloween festival obviously attempted to entertain the players. It isn't the best, no. But there is only so much you can do, with limitations. I found a dislike in the quest, and I PMed Streety about it personally, and told him what I thought, probably because it was the best way to handle things.

Why is there a need to bring this to the public eye and contributing to it as if it was a humiliation attempt?

Mark Sir Link
10-26-2010, 07:55 AM
I never mentioned anyone by name until someone decided to attack me.

SwimChao
10-26-2010, 07:57 AM
Just another note, I had no idea the weapon had been changed to infect players with the zombie infection.

That was also removed because that's absolutely ridiculous to add to a player weapon, let alone one that (at the time) flashes a player's entire screen white.

I cannot be held accountable if it is changed back, though.

snoop413
10-26-2010, 10:53 AM
Snoop413 asked for an option to hide the forum options from what I can only assume was some sort of personal vendetta, considering according to his player flags, he began to use some of the provided options.

whaa? i joke around a lot with people but i never held anything personal against you, or anyone from graal for that matter. you were one of the few dev's on UN who did something on a regular basis.

Absolut_Crono
10-26-2010, 11:20 AM
Just another note, I had no idea the weapon had been changed to infect players with the zombie infection.

That was also removed because that's absolutely ridiculous to add to a player weapon, let alone one that (at the time) flashes a player's entire screen white.

I cannot be held accountable if it is changed back, though.

It was SUPPOSED to nullify the zombie infection as far as I know. Don't know if Luca changed it at some point though.

LordSquirt
10-26-2010, 11:38 AM
i bet that was chris vimes who neg repped you

Absolut_Crono
10-26-2010, 12:01 PM
apparently UN's management is now attempting to demonize me or something since out of the blue I am being harassed by their pals about what they've been "told by crono, luca, and khyber"

they should do a better job though and not tell players **** like "CakeDogs and PresentCats" was an event I made. I mean, come on guys, if you want to make me look like the person who doesn't/didn't do work or only output poor quality work, you could do it much better than that.


No one has spoken to me about you in a long time, with the exception of Mystic and Ben Rain once or twice, so it's not got anything to do with me. Also, I know for a fact you didn't make that event, ee and Gamerkid made it. I dont think it is "poor quality", it is very bright like Robot Unicorn attack (flash game). Either you love it or you hate it really, but no one is forced to play it.

The other Luca stuff really doesn't have much to do with me. BD Chose Luca as Co-Manager, GK as Dev Manager, I stepped into it like that, and have been trying to work out the kinks as best as I can without outright firing Luca so as to not seem biased. I mean, we haven't gotten along for quite some time now, so it would look like bias on my part to fire someone without giving them a chance. I admit though, I had a conversation with a certain member of the PWA that changed my opinion at one point. Just looking forward to good things now!

MysticX2X
10-26-2010, 12:14 PM
Good grief that zombie infection in the boonade was removed. Was aggravating me when people kept spamming it in the etcenter.

jorollychu
10-26-2010, 12:30 PM
I had a conversation with a certain member of the PWA that changed my opinion at one point.

wonder who this could have been. :p

kia345
10-26-2010, 02:38 PM
It was SUPPOSED to nullify the zombie infection as far as I know. Don't know if Luca changed it at some point though.

Just another note, I had no idea the weapon had been changed to infect players with the zombie infection.

So is anyone on the same page, or do you just all run your own servers?

xnervNATx
10-26-2010, 02:48 PM
Same events? Same hats?

The only recurring thing is the theme of the town, and the Halloween shop where you can buy items from past years. Greatly confused by your comment.

Couldn't you at least make sense and prod at how annoying the flashbang is?


8/10 hats from door quiz were already out from last year i do not see anything new in that.

Crono
10-26-2010, 02:59 PM
un management a mess

too many people sitting on their thrones, too many people in charge.

fowlplay4
10-26-2010, 03:40 PM
un management a mess

too many people sitting on their thrones, too many people in charge.

I prefer your post in haiku form.

un management mess
too many people sitting on their thrones
too many people in charge

Crono
10-26-2010, 03:41 PM
I prefer your post in haiku form.

un management mess
too many people sitting on their thrones
too many people in charge

lmao

SlikRick
10-26-2010, 08:27 PM
The other Luca stuff really doesn't have much to do with me. BD Chose Luca as Co-Manager, GK as Dev Manager, I stepped into it like that, and have been trying to work out the kinks as best as I can without outright firing Luca so as to not seem biased. I mean, we haven't gotten along for quite some time now, so it would look like bias on my part to fire someone without giving them a chance. I admit though, I had a conversation with a certain member of the PWA that changed my opinion at one point. Just looking forward to good things now!

As a Manager you will always make decisions that some people won't like and will find reasons to criticize you, it comes with the territory. If half of what I have heard about Luca is true then it is doing more damage keeping him then getting rid of him and taking the heat from his friends. Just because somebody was promoted under old Management doesn't mean that they deserve the position or that they have a right to maintain that position. You have to look at the big picture of what is best for the server and community as a whole, not what will benefit some people or keeping certain people off your back because they do not agree with your decisions. There have always been those kinds of people on this game that just find the littlest things wrong with Managers and pick at it because they have nothing better to do, or they like to troll people.

Hiro
10-26-2010, 10:52 PM
As a Manager you will always make decisions that some people won't like and will find reasons to criticize you, it comes with the territory. If half of what I have heard about Luca is true then it is doing more damage keeping him then getting rid of him and taking the heat from his friends. Just because somebody was promoted under old Management doesn't mean that they deserve the position or that they have a right to maintain that position. You have to look at the big picture of what is best for the server and community as a whole, not what will benefit some people or keeping certain people off your back because they do not agree with your decisions. There have always been those kinds of people on this game that just find the littlest things wrong with Managers and pick at it because they have nothing better to do, or they like to troll people.
but UN staff has always been about keeping certain people off your back~!

Crono
10-27-2010, 09:12 AM
hey crono you should do what slick does and delete all negative opinions LOL

Fulg0reSama
10-27-2010, 09:13 AM
hey crono you should do what slick does and delete all negative opinions LOL

That statement was pretty much like kicking a barrel of gunpowder. Hope we don't have a war of the world's here.

Absolut_Crono
10-27-2010, 09:14 AM
So is anyone on the same page, or do you just all run your own servers?

I seriously hope this was a troll or a joke post. If you truly believe we should know what every update of every NPC on NC is at every moment in time, either you are too strict, or you are delusional. There is no requirement for Managerial approval for any changes made to an NPC by anyone who has the rights to do so. Even if I were to sit and check the staff activity of every staff member, I would not be able to tell what was changed, and if I knew what was changed and it was updated more than once, I couldnt tell what changed each revision.
As a Manager you will always make decisions that some people won't like and will find reasons to criticize you, it comes with the territory. If half of what I have heard about Luca is true then it is doing more damage keeping him then getting rid of him and taking the heat from his friends. Just because somebody was promoted under old Management doesn't mean that they deserve the position or that they have a right to maintain that position. You have to look at the big picture of what is best for the server and community as a whole, not what will benefit some people or keeping certain people off your back because they do not agree with your decisions. There have always been those kinds of people on this game that just find the littlest things wrong with Managers and pick at it because they have nothing better to do, or they like to troll people.

I have a grip on the Luca situation now, but my point was more focused that after I was around long enough as Manager to say "Hey, you arent performing to my expectations. I expect 1, 2, 3 etc." and that did not work, I decided to demote Luca. When I asked for staff opinions on the Dev side, only 2 people disagreed, and disagreed very strongly. Both of these players disagreed for obvious reasons, but one of them made me reconsider the demotion due to lack of a viable replacement were Luca to quit Graal altogether.

Crono
10-27-2010, 09:18 AM
That statement was pretty much like kicking a barrel of gunpowder. Hope we don't have a war of the world's here.

what? it's nothing.

kia345
10-27-2010, 02:52 PM
I seriously hope this was a troll or a joke post. If you truly believe we should know what every update of every NPC on NC is at every moment in time, either you are too strict, or you are delusional. There is no requirement for Managerial approval for any changes made to an NPC by anyone who has the rights to do so. Even if I were to sit and check the staff activity of every staff member, I would not be able to tell what was changed, and if I knew what was changed and it was updated more than once, I couldnt tell what changed each revision.

UN's management everybody.

The idea of him knowing what his team does is an irrational thought.

MysticX2X
10-27-2010, 05:20 PM
UN's management everybody.

The idea of him knowing what his team does is an irrational thought.

I don't understand why you always try to skew context. You try keeping a tab on the all of the many NPC's on UN that at any time could be updated.

kia345
10-27-2010, 05:26 PM
I don't understand why you always try to skew context. You try keeping a tab on the all of the many NPC's on UN that at any time could be updated.

I'm sorry, isn't it part of the manager's job to know who has access to what, and who's changing what? What's going to stop a new Yen from uploading a clone to warp around the server and killing everyone until they link it to a picture of their prepubescent chest?


I didn't "skew" anything - he straight up said it was ridiculous for me to think he could keep a watchful eye on the server he was in charge of.

SlikRick
10-27-2010, 08:12 PM
That statement was pretty much like kicking a barrel of gunpowder. Hope we don't have a war of the world's here.

No he's just trolling like he normally does so it's best to just ignore him.

Edit: Cron you need anything you know how to get a hold of me.

DustyPorViva
10-27-2010, 09:04 PM
No he's just trolling like he normally does so it's best to just ignore him.

Edit: Cron you need anything you know how to get a hold of me.
What? Negative criticism is always deleted by mods here. It's insanely bad on the Era forums, from what I've seen.

I had always hoped that since playerworld subforums were run by players instead of the forum mods/administration, that they would just let the players have their word whether it was good or bad. Sadly it seems the playerworld mods don't like hearing bad things either. What's gonna happen, UN is gonna lose players because a few players post something bad about it? It never happens. I find censorship much more damaging than negative criticism.

salesman
10-27-2010, 09:34 PM
What? Negative criticism is always deleted by mods here. It's insanely bad on the Era forums, from what I've seen.

You must not have been reading the Era forums lately...just about every post and/or thread has been some sort of negative criticism towards the staff.

There's a difference between bashing staff to be a ****head and providing criticism. In my opinion, a post saying "This update sucks whoever uploaded it is a retard" should be deleted. If that post had instead said, "I really don't like this update because ____, I'd rather see ____" or even just "I don't like this update", then it should stay.

Playerworld staff are working on their free time because they enjoy it. They don't get anything out of it; they do it because they want to. They shouldn't have to put up with snot-nosed brats who are just complaining because they didn't get their way, especially when our pool of volunteers is so small. And before you say "if they can't take the bashing, they shouldn't be staff" -- it's not they they can or cannot, it's that they shouldn't have to.

kia345
10-27-2010, 09:39 PM
There's a difference between bashing staff to be a ****head and providing criticism. In my opinion, a post saying "This update sucks whoever uploaded it is a retard" should be deleted. If that post had instead said, "I really don't like this update because ____, I'd rather see ____" or even just "I don't like this update", then it should stay.

Not everyone needs an elaborate and in depth reason why something it sucks. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If people are bluntly saying it's bad, that should be enough. If they say it's bad, you know what? It might just be bad, whether they worded it carefully or not. Fact is, these playerworlds, especially the ones with a lot of players, need some manner of quality control. It shouldn't be up to all the players to hold the developer's hands and tell them exactly what they want done.

Reasons why they think it sucks are good, ways it can be improved are better. But deleting the negative comments? Don't be a wuss.

salesman
10-27-2010, 09:41 PM
Not everyone needs an elaborate and in depth reason why something it sucks. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If people are bluntly saying it's bad, that should be enough. If they say it's bad, you know what? It might just be bad, whether they worded it carefully or not. Fact is, these playerworlds, especially the ones with a lot of players, need some manner of quality control. It shouldn't be up to all the players to hold the developer's hands and tell them exactly what they want done.

Reasons why they think it sucks are good, ways it can be improved are better. But deleting the negative comments? Don't be a wuss.

If that post had instead said, "I really don't like this update because ____, I'd rather see ____" or even just "I don't like this update", then it should stay.

:confused:

kia345
10-27-2010, 09:42 PM
:confused:

"this sucks, you suck for making it" is just as valid

salesman
10-27-2010, 09:45 PM
"this sucks, you suck for making it" is just as valid

You can be blunt without being a **** and attacking a staff member. Volunteers don't need to put up with that.

Crimson2005
10-27-2010, 10:12 PM
UN's management everybody.

The idea of him knowing what his team does is an irrational thought.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2qmm9h5.gif

DustyPorViva
10-27-2010, 10:26 PM
You must not have been reading the Era forums lately...just about every post and/or thread has been some sort of negative criticism towards the staff.

There's a difference between bashing staff to be a ****head and providing criticism. In my opinion, a post saying "This update sucks whoever uploaded it is a retard" should be deleted. If that post had instead said, "I really don't like this update because ____, I'd rather see ____" or even just "I don't like this update", then it should stay.

Playerworld staff are working on their free time because they enjoy it. They don't get anything out of it; they do it because they want to. They shouldn't have to put up with snot-nosed brats who are just complaining because they didn't get their way, especially when our pool of volunteers is so small. And before you say "if they can't take the bashing, they shouldn't be staff" -- it's not they they can or cannot, it's that they shouldn't have to.
So what? If there's no merit in their claims then oh well I say. The threads will eventually die. To silence the players is exactly what I hate to see happen with a game, and whether you get paid or not, when you're running a server you're running a game to many players.

MysticX2X
10-27-2010, 10:32 PM
I'm sorry, isn't it part of the manager's job to know who has access to what, and who's changing what? What's going to stop a new Yen from uploading a clone to warp around the server and killing everyone until they link it to a picture of their prepubescent chest?


I didn't "skew" anything - he straight up said it was ridiculous for me to think he could keep a watchful eye on the server he was in charge of.

Yeah, they should know, but that doesn't stop people with script access to make such changes without the manager knowing.

SlikRick
10-27-2010, 10:39 PM
What? Negative criticism is always deleted by mods here. It's insanely bad on the Era forums, from what I've seen.

I had always hoped that since playerworld subforums were run by players instead of the forum mods/administration, that they would just let the players have their word whether it was good or bad. Sadly it seems the playerworld mods don't like hearing bad things either. What's gonna happen, UN is gonna lose players because a few players post something bad about it? It never happens. I find censorship much more damaging than negative criticism.

No Crono was referring to me deleting all his posts in the N-Pulse forum because they were all "Delete N-Pulse" and things along those lines, after it was clearly stated in the main post I made that comments like these will be deleted. I welcome constructive comments but have zero tolerance for trolls.

kia345
10-27-2010, 10:46 PM
delete N-Pulse



Also, quit calling everyone who says something you don't like a troll. It gives the people who actually try to be bad guys a bad name.

SlikRick
10-27-2010, 10:46 PM
Get a life.