PDA

View Full Version : The problem with ignoring "unintentional" laggers.


Rufus
04-16-2010, 09:44 PM
People abuse lag to win activities such as events and sparring are no better than those who use trainers. It is an unfair advantage, and both the players and staff are sick of it. For most people I personally believe it is controlled, and the only measure that is in place is, "If they can't be hit, they can't take part!" which doesn't do much. Most people can get at least 1 hit on someone who is lagging, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to play. Laggers are taking liberties, and with no incentives to stop lagging to win, why would anyone even bother to not lag?

I usually download overnight, but the over the last three days I decided that when I wanted to download something, I'd continue to play Graal and see how I fair up. With my torrented lag I could easily target certain individuals in events and had no problem winning a lot of the time. I've played Castle Wars with torrents on before too, and when you're constantly warping around the place you can easily take it over.

Yes there are people who have problems with lag out of their control, but to put it bluntly, that is their problem. PrayDoh has a bad connection and he hasn't just sat and made it awkward for everyone else; he has made every effort to fix the issue, but I don't see the same for anyone else that lags. The other players shouldn't be placed in the position they are because of it and even if you can't control your lag, it doesn't remove that it is unfair to everyone else. If they're over a certain ping, they should not be allowed to participate in the competitive aspects of the server, simple as that.

Luda
04-16-2010, 09:58 PM
Agreed!

salesman
04-16-2010, 10:01 PM
I agree. This was a bit of a problem on Era, too. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. I'd be willing to bet that if UN required a certain ping to join events, most of the people with "unintentional lag" would suddenly have amazing connections.

MysticX2X
04-16-2010, 10:11 PM
I agree. Normally I don't mind people lagging just a tiny bit (even though it sucks), but lately there has been one player who has been taking advantage of their ridiculous ping rate.

I'd like it if laggers could be detected serverside somehow or if they can be altogether excluded from events/sparring if their average ping is above a high mark.

Crono
04-16-2010, 10:16 PM
If they're over a certain ping, they should not be allowed to participate in the competitive aspects of the server, simple as that.

Agreed.

DustyPorViva
04-16-2010, 10:21 PM
I was told UN used to have ping detection but it was removed because it was so strict, it was kicking people from spars just because of a lag spike. However that is easily remedied by gaining an average of some sort instead of sudden.

However, what would you guys consider the 'cut-off' for a ping? Again, take into consideration that it'd be based off of an average. I can't say I've really seen normal players with over 400ms ping participating in anything. I pretty much have between 50-350ms, even with my horrible internet. 300 was also my average when I played on dial-up, so I don't think it'd be cutting people off unfairly... but then again I don't spar much so I'm not sure how bad 300ms would be in sparring/events.

joel34
04-16-2010, 10:45 PM
+1 on that.

tempandrew
04-16-2010, 11:16 PM
To a point, this all makes sense, but in all fairness you have to stop and think of the types of lag. What's to say what's not an unfair advantage, honestly? Obviously the REALLY high amounts of lag are automatically included, but let's take into account the people who have like 200MS ping, but also have UDP checked. It doesn't seem like it, but that is MASSIVE lag to the point where it's so hard to hit the person unless you actively attempt to hit where the person is going to be, and that can cause you to mess up in things.

CTF is one situation where it's just unbearable. You have 150-200MS people who are also skippy and have UDP checked, you could sit at the flag slashing directly at it and they'll still walk by and grab it, maybe getting hit, but their lag is so bad that they grab it anyway.

Unless you can really decide on an absolutely fair way of detecting how much lag, and how to pick-up on all types of lag, then this seems absolutely unfair unless you're specifically targeting people who are at a ridiculous level.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 12:13 AM
Rufus, I understand where you're coming from completely. I used to hate players who lagged, and even having lag. Ever since about two months ago when I moved, I've discovered that satellite internet is not good at all, also with that said, satellite is the only type of internet I can get where I live.

I've been playing Graal for a long time, without lag. Ever since I've gotten this internet it has changed my gameplay totally. I'm a longtime Graal player and paying customer.

It really would not be that fair to everyone who has spent money just to be blacklisted and kick from events, spars, etc;
That would almost be like buying a game, and then not being able to save.

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 12:23 AM
I disagree.
How would it feel if you had a 56k connection and not be able to participate in ANYTHING?
I mean, wtf would be the point of even playing if you don't get the chance to spar, play events, etc.?

Elizabeth
04-17-2010, 12:29 AM
I agree, it gets ridiculous when it disrupts events. It's very unfair to other players.

salesman
04-17-2010, 12:50 AM
I disagree.
How would it feel if you had a 56k connection and not be able to participate in ANYTHING?
I mean, wtf would be the point of even playing if you don't get the chance to spar, play events, etc.?

The fairness goes both ways...laggy people ruin the fun for other paying customers. How would you feel if a player with a 56k connection won an event you were in solely because of their 56k connection?

Besides, if you're still using dial up, maybe you should invest your money in other places besides Graal.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 12:54 AM
The fairness goes both ways...laggy people ruin the fun for other paying customers. How would you feel if a player with a 56k connection won an event you were in solely because of their 56k connection?

Besides, if you're still using dial up, maybe you should invest your money in other places besides Graal.

For some people, that may be the only internet that they can get.

Rufus
04-17-2010, 12:56 AM
I have just taken the average MS of the 50 players online, and even with Chakrah's 455ms the average ping was just 80ms. 300ms (3x the average) is too much, I've never seen anyone with an average ping of 300, and that's where I believe it should stop people from competing.

Serverside and client lag wouldn't be effected by something like this, but all other "types" of lag (aka your connection) should be. People may lag in different ways from skipping a little to completely spiking around, but if their ping is high the effect is the same.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 12:57 AM
For some people, that may be the only internet that they can get.

This. There are people forced to use dialup or satellite internet because of their location (satellite is preferable because of speeds, but both have very high latency).

I have just taken the average MS of the 50 players online, and even with Chakrah's 455ms the average ping was just 80ms. 300ms (3x the average) is too much, I've never seen anyone with an average ping of 300, and that's where I believe it should stop people from competing.

Not sure how accurate that is. The average ping right now on Era is 120 MS. It's usually slightly lower, but anything under 200 or so should be fine. A fifth of a second is hardly crippling.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 01:01 AM
This. There are people forced to use dialup or satellite internet because of their location (satellite is preferable because of speeds, but both have very high latency).

With that being said, as everyone understands that satellite does in fact have bad latency.

Also,

There is no way to fix this, or stop it, it's just going to lag.
It would not be far to ban, or kick people from stuff just because they can't control it.

If people are sparring with lag, and doing events with lag, it's not abuse.
It's them trying to play like everyone else.

Crono
04-17-2010, 01:05 AM
It really would not be that fair to everyone who has spent money just to be blacklisted and kick from events, spars, etc;
That would almost be like buying a game, and then not being able to save.

It's not fair to have someone of your lag-magnitude take part in competitive events. The normal sparring I can (barely) tolerate, but tournies and other important events need to filter out incredibly laggy people because a lot of folks are abusing it. I have nothing personal against people who are genuinely very laggy, however there comes a point where it is ruining people's events and sparring.

I disagree.
How would it feel if you had a 56k connection and not be able to participate in ANYTHING?
I mean, wtf would be the point of even playing if you don't get the chance to spar, play events, etc.?

It's not about "LOL UR SO MEAN" it's about being fair to the majority of "competitive" players. Lag is in essence ruining the gaming experience of the majority when it comes to spar tournies and whatnot. Catering to the majority > catering to the very select few who actually have connections issues and others who lag themselves on purpose.

This. There are people forced to use dialup or satellite internet because of their location (satellite is preferable because of speeds, but both have very high latency).

Not sure how accurate that is. The average ping right now on Era is 120 MS. It's usually slightly lower, but anything under 200 or so should be fine. A fifth of a second is hardly crippling.

And? I'm not against 300ms, it's hard to summarize someone's lag based soley on their latency. It's more of a subjective thing. If there's a player skipping around an entire spar ring and becomming very difficult to hit, it's not fair for the other players to have to put up with this. Simply put, it's the problem of the laggy user.

Luda
04-17-2010, 01:07 AM
56K is extremely uncommon so why should something that is rarely seen have priority? Majority of players are on cable, I'd rather see a majority of players pleased over one or two.

P.S. I don't think I've seen anybody with 56K since like 2004? (Minus Nightmareangel who upgraded to cable in 07-08)

Rufus
04-17-2010, 01:09 AM
56K is extremely uncommon so why should something that is rarely seen have priority? Majority of players are on cable, I'd rather see a majority of players pleased over one or two.

P.S. I don't think I've seen anybody with 56K since like 2004? (Minus Nightmareangel who upgraded to cable in 07-08)

lol

http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/1002/broadband_hm_1002_484x315.png

Door
04-17-2010, 01:16 AM
I have already made my views quite clear to Backdraft regarding this topic (who shot me down after attempting to give me a pretty masterful political run-around). Winning events with the aid of lag--whether intentional lag or not--is cheating. Yes, cheating. That's all there is to it. How can it be considered any different from using a trainer? If I logged into a friend's computer and played Graal not knowing that a trainer was being applied, should I be allowed to continue doing this? It's not my fault!! I can't help if I'm winning every event due to an unfair advantage! I shouldn't be held responsible for the fact that every single person I spar is left in the dust even though they are much more skilled at sparring than I am!

I don't see a difference between that and 'unintentional' lag.
With that being said, as everyone understands that satellite does in fact have bad latency.

Also,

There is no way to fix this, or stop it, it's just going to lag.
It would not be far to ban, or kick people from stuff just because they can't control it.

If people are sparring with lag, and doing events with lag, it's not abuse.
It's them trying to play like everyone else.
For some people, the 'only Internet that they can get' provides an unfair advantage and bragging rights. Chakrah, you love playing the martyr act, but it's very clear that you take advantage of your connection and know that it's a huge asset. Nice gloat-video, pal.

pZpN5qWXmLs

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 01:16 AM
Well, if someone lags, there lag also effects them; everyone lags to him to.

I mean, look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDO07SYBQ0

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 01:24 AM
Damn i look good in my movie

Crono
04-17-2010, 01:26 AM
Well, if someone lags, there lag also effects them; everyone lags to him to.

Not the point. Also Blobz clearly has the advantage there because viewing it from the other guy's screen would show Blobz massively skipping everywhere.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 01:28 AM
You think they would've fixed this problem a long time ago if it's such a big deal.

Oh wait, they still haven't so.
It must not be, so stop whining. QQ

Crono
04-17-2010, 01:30 AM
You think they would've fixed this problem a long time ago if it's such a big deal.

Oh wait, they still haven't so.
It must not be, so stop whining. QQ

lol gg.

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 01:32 AM
You think they would've fixed this problem a long time ago if it's such a big deal.

Oh wait, they still haven't so.
It must not be, so stop whining. QQ

Agreeeeeeeeeeed!

tempandrew
04-17-2010, 01:38 AM
I have already made my views quite clear to Backdraft regarding this topic (who shot me down after attempting to give me a pretty masterful political run-around). Winning events with the aid of lag--whether intentional lag or not--is cheating. Yes, cheating. That's all there is to it. How can it be considered any different from using a trainer? If I logged into a friend's computer and played Graal not knowing that a trainer was being applied, should I be allowed to continue doing this? It's not my fault!! I can't help if I'm winning every event due to an unfair advantage! I shouldn't be held responsible for the fact that every single person I spar is left in the dust even though they are much more skilled at sparring than I am!

I don't see a difference between that and 'unintentional' lag.

For some people, the 'only Internet that they can get' provides an unfair advantage and bragging rights. Chakrah, you love playing the martyr act, but it's very clear that you take advantage of your connection and know that it's a huge asset. Nice gloat-video, pal.

pZpN5qWXmLs


This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

One day, if your internet is not doing good, go in a spar or event and try to win. It's really hard. Working with lag is an actual skill, you need a high amount of talent to be able to get it to work for you. Having wireless, my internet likes to spike up sometimes and start screwing around, to the point where I'll have Chakrah-like lag. I've tried sparring under these conditions and I was being wooped EVERY time. It's not cheating, because it doesn't give you an edge, it just gives you a different set of conditions to play under.

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 01:40 AM
Why don't players like Ares, Brett, or any of the high ranked sparrers complain?
Is it because they actually know how to face a player with lag?

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 01:41 AM
Why don't players like Ares, Brett, or any of the high ranked sparrers complain?
Is it because they actually know how to face a player with lag?

Exactly.

This goes back to where I said "STOP WHINING"

getting butthurt over losing to me in a spar isn't anything.

maximus_asinus
04-17-2010, 01:44 AM
If I logged into a friend's computer and played Graal not knowing that a trainer was being applied, should I be allowed to continue doing this? It's not my fault!!
In most cases a player does not have control over their connection type (whether they cannot afford a new connection, there is no upgraded connection in their area, or they are not of age and play off their parent's connection). Trying to compare these two groups of people (trainer users, and laggers) is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Granted there are probably people out there who lag intentionally, but I don't see why the truly unintentional laggers have to be punished for the acts of a few people.

Rufus
04-17-2010, 01:50 AM
Exactly.

This goes back to where I said "STOP WHINING"

getting butthurt over losing to me in a spar isn't anything.

You should know more than anyone that I am not posting this because I am "butthurt" about anything. There are a few of us that don't let you win events or Castle Wars, I just don't think players should have such things disrupted by laggers like you.

In most cases a player does not have control over their connection type (whether they cannot afford a new connection, there is no upgraded connection in their area, or they are not of age and play off their parent's connection). Trying to compare these two groups of people (trainer users, and laggers) is like trying to compare apples to oranges. Granted there are probably people out there who lag intentionally, but I don't see why the truly unintentional laggers have to be punished for the acts of a few people.

From experience with the playerbase, I believe this to be untrue. I don't think I know a single person on the server that has over 300ms consistently and doesn't abuse and boast about it. They are in the same league as trainer users.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 01:57 AM
Rufus, shut up.
You're just being bullheaded and want to win an arguement now.

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 01:58 AM
If they complain about losing to you, than why would they even attempt to spar you?

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 02:01 AM
Even better, if they know I lag, then don't fight me?

MysticX2X
04-17-2010, 02:09 AM
This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

One day, if your internet is not doing good, go in a spar or event and try to win. It's really hard. Working with lag is an actual skill, you need a high amount of talent to be able to get it to work for you. Having wireless, my internet likes to spike up sometimes and start screwing around, to the point where I'll have Chakrah-like lag. I've tried sparring under these conditions and I was being wooped EVERY time. It's not cheating, because it doesn't give you an edge, it just gives you a different set of conditions to play under.

It's actually not that hard. One day my brother was torrenting on our wireless connection so my latency was really bad. I started to have relative ease when sparring people. Lag is the same way for both opponents, but in my honest opinion, the lagger has it easier. It would have to depend on download/upload speed however.

You guys say its unfair to Chakrah to restrict some event/spars he can play in, but how many people's fun has he ruined? Quite a lot. And he seems to admire it too.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 02:12 AM
You guys say its unfair to Chakrah to restrict some event/spars he can play in, but how many people's fun has he ruined? Quite a lot. And he seems to admire it too.

Chakrah seems like a total ass. I said it wasn't fair to people who genuinely lag and can't help it, not to people who just act stupid.

maximus_asinus
04-17-2010, 02:21 AM
Chakrah seems like a total ass. I said it wasn't fair to people who genuinely lag and can't help it, not to people who just act stupid.This.

MysticX2X
04-17-2010, 02:22 AM
Chakrah seems like a total ass. I said it wasn't fair to people who genuinely lag and can't help it, not to people who just act stupid.

I agree, but I don't think there really has been a non-idiot with lag as incredibly bad as Chakrahs. BlobZ lagged as bad as Chakrah and he was a total douchebag.

Even better, if they know I lag, then don't fight me?
It's inevitable to fight you in events/major spar tournies?

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 02:28 AM
i'm not going to be sympathetic and say that i'm sorry about my lag, because i can't help it.

but you really know how annoying it is to hear "fix ur lag, u should be banned qq, ban u from server!!!11" every day?
so yeah i might come off as a prick, but i have my reasons.

now stop being big babies

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 02:55 AM
Why did no1 complain about BlobZ? :O

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 02:59 AM
Why did no1 complain about BlobZ? :O

yeah, i've been wondering the same thing.

weeway
04-17-2010, 03:10 AM
I usually have about 50-75MS but sometime it gets bad because I share a connection with my brother and sister. In my case sure I lag a bit for other people but I also see other people lagging on my screen too so I guess it's more fair.
But as an ET I see people who have very bad lags and sometimes i agree it's not fair and they should be kicked but I can't kick them. haveing a ping monitor might help for some people but then theres people who randomly spike.

I usto have a really bad lag to and I just really wanted to play events and I always got kicked so I know how it feels it sucks.

MysticX2X
04-17-2010, 03:17 AM
Why did no1 complain about BlobZ? :O

Are you new? Everyone did.

geneticfrog
04-17-2010, 03:19 AM
I SUPPORT A LAG CAP!!!

from experience in a TTPK on UN vs charka i was tellnig the ET to kick him beacause no one can see him move and hes still hitting poeople.

So I used up my whole 13 hp slashing his motionless char that warps around.... EVEN when i was slashing RIGHT in his face he still hit me and didn;t take any damage over and over.

it was just rediculous and people ended up leaving the event beacause the other teams couldn't fight back.

YES TO LAG CAP!

plus era has a lag cap of 250 MS already.... they dont care about a playesr feelings.... if you cant get it under 250 MS YOU are OUT OF THERE.

again.... yes to lag cap!

geneticfrog
04-17-2010, 03:26 AM
so basically that means everyone playing the event has their event ruined so one guy can stay in and play even if he lags way too much.

Majority rules, lag cap is a yes!
kick the laggers in the butt!!!

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 03:27 AM
Majority rules

Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

Rufus
04-17-2010, 03:38 AM
Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

I spoke to a few Era players and staff and laggers are removed from events there, just not automatically. Sounds a little contradictory to your beliefs.

geneticfrog
04-17-2010, 03:43 AM
Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.

he can still play graal just not events and major events due to WAy too much lag.... at the point where you cant hit him.

I payed for graal too.... dont i get a right to have faire game play?
if he can lag to 1k i want to be able to use WSU in major events.

I dont see the sense in making he laggers happy while 98% of the graal players who want to have faire game play must suffer.

it literally ruins the events if you cant hit someone so i want to be able to use WSU on laggers so i can god mode so its faire. it just will never end. :asleep:

WaDaFack
04-17-2010, 03:50 AM
Are you new? Everyone did.

Are you kidding me? When his lag was first introduced, almost everyone complained.
After a while, everyone just shut up.

Also, I agree. He paid to play the game, not to get banned from events, the only fun thing left to do on UN anyways.

Heroin
04-17-2010, 04:07 AM
major bull****

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 04:14 AM
can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.

qft

Rufus
04-17-2010, 04:18 AM
I understand that some people will read what I've said, take their experiences of minor laggers, and feel like it is some kind of catastrophe in excluding these people from competitive aspects of the server. However..

68 Players Online
Highest Ping: geneticfrog (1033ms)
Lowest Ping: Graal754612 (34ms)
Average: 100.03ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.05%

When people in this thread are saying "majority" they really do mean it. Can someone please explain to me what justifies allowing laggers to spoil the playing experience for the other players? I'm really not getting it.

salesman
04-17-2010, 04:28 AM
I'll say it again, an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. Regardless of whether or not it is intentional, it should not be allowed because it is unfair to those who are playing under normal circumstances.

A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 04:29 AM
It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.

Rufus
04-17-2010, 04:29 AM
A similar issue we had on Era involved players using a program to speed up processes on their computer (Graal in particular). Basically, everything on the clientside would run faster than normal, giving them a huge advantage. The detection we developed would catch people using the program, but it also caught someone whose computer came with artificial overclocking software pre-installed. The software on his computer was producing the same effect as the cheating program, therefore giving him the same advantages...unintentionally.

Now, would you disable the detection and allow cheaters to play on the server just because of this one person? Hell no.

Eventually the player learned how to disable the software on his computer and was allowed to play again, but the issue is still pretty much the same.

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 04:38 AM
Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.

Using a utility to speed up the Windows process clock and lagging as a result of a poor internet connection are completely different things... :confused:

Rufus
04-17-2010, 04:44 AM
Using a utility to speed up the Windows process clock and lagging as a result of a poor internet connection are completely different things... :confused:

No idea why you're quoting me when I didn't even bring it up (probably eager to argue with me) but they're both placing everyone else at an unfair disadvantage. Both are questionable, and if neither are provoked, don't expect either to change.

Door
04-17-2010, 04:45 AM
It's not an intentional spoiling, Rufus.
I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.

It doesn't matter WHY it is happening, Chakrah. It's unfair to the vast majority of players, as Rufus showed us. I'm sorry if 3% of the playerbase cannot participate certain events/sparring/Castle Wars at times (or all the time). That is way less harmful than stealing from 97% of the players.

If people like BlobZ and Chakrah didn't take advantage of their lag by playing in events even when they receive complaints from other players, then this would not have to be enforced. Unfortunately, however...

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/Jennierocket/Graal/chakrahcheat.png

Demisis_P2P
04-17-2010, 04:45 AM
Would it be possible to use somebody's ping to draw a circle around their player that shows where they might be after delay is taken into account? So that you know how far ahead of them you need to slash/shoot?

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 04:48 AM
you edited that pic clearly

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 04:58 AM
No idea why you're quoting me when I didn't even bring it up (probably eager to argue with me) but they're both placing everyone else at an unfair disadvantage. Both are questionable, and if neither are provoked, don't expect either to change.

I quoted you because you quoted Sales, who had mentioned players who were using "speed tools" to increase the framerate of Graal. You, in your message, said someone had recently been banned for that, which is apparently reason to create a thread about lagging.

once again:

Someone was banned for the exact same reason yesterday, hence why I thought it would be an appropriate time to bring this up.


wat

PrayDoh
04-17-2010, 05:07 AM
As a laggy player and as a member of the PR team on Unholy Nation, I support a lag cap on events and spars.

Lag prevents me from playing the game in the way I like to play it, which is skip-free, and actually being able to hit players where I see them on my screen. It's because of lag that I choose to remove myself from most oppurtunities to play events or spar.

I've been on both sides of the fence, and it is pretty undeniable that players with excessive lag have an advantage over others. To put it in perspective, Chakrah went from having 1600 rate before he lagged, to breaking 2100 with his excessive lag.

To reiterate, even though it would disallow me from playing a lot of events, I support a lag cap.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 05:13 AM
Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept

Rufus
04-17-2010, 05:19 AM
85 Players Online
Highest Ping: Chakrah (700ms)
Lowest Ping: KittyGirl97 (25ms)
Average: 90.08ms
Pings Below 300ms: 97.64%

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 05:31 AM
You think they would've fixed this problem a long time ago if it's such a big deal.

Oh wait, they still haven't so.
It must not be, so stop whining. QQ
They tried to, they just sucked at doing it and disabled it instead of trying to fix it.

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 05:35 AM
Not when the other player pays (paid?) just as much as you for the right to play.
"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Let's say it's the 1950s..
You're all playing basketball right, being white (non laggers)..and I want to play basketball but I can't because im a lagger(Black).

You won't let me play because I'm a different.

same concept
Seriously? You're making that comparison?

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 05:47 AM
"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 05:54 AM
lol?

because it's totally ok to decide one day you're no longer going to allow players with high pings to participate in the game
Sure, the requirements aren't written on paper like say, a PC game is. But if I buy a PC game that says I meet the minimal requirements, but not the recommended requirements... I'm not going to be shocked when I'm missing out on some of the game. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean I'm entitled to experience it when I lack what is recommended.

Participating in online gaming means you're putting yourself in that situation whether it's written down or not. I've downloaded plenty of games and realized I just couldn't enjoy it with my internet connection, even though I met the minimal requirements. Now this becomes especially bad when it goes from tarnishing your personal enjoyment, to messing it up for everyone else that has to play with you.

Really, all I hear is "stop whining, stop being butthurt"... sounds like who's really butthurt is the minority that this is going to affect. Why don't you deal with the fact that you're actually going to have to deal with having a ****ty internet connection instead of everyone else that has the displeasure of participating in events with you.

snoop413
04-17-2010, 05:56 AM
a complete ban from events isn't necessary. looking at chakrah's profile he has over 500 hours and a total of 26 event wins. it's not 26 event wins this month, but total of all time since that feature was implemented in peoples profile. that is not very much at all. possibly he should be kicked in team events since thats when people complain the most, but i don't see it as that big of a deal. it is not hard to kill people who have a lot of lag, it is just time consuming.

i remember bell had an official rule against players who lag bad but it doesn't seem to be in affect anymore. there are still rules in events that are broken, even if they are minor ones. you aren't supposed to sit around and just talk to your friends and not fight, yet people do it all the time. yes, i do this too, but if they are going to bring back a lag rule please make sure to enforce all rules to be fair for everyone else.

weeway
04-17-2010, 06:06 AM
"Oh no, I paid for an online game that requires a decent internet connection and am shocked because suddenly me paying for an online game and knowing my connection sucks bit me in the ass? Maybe I should have thought twice about online gaming with my crappy internet."

Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 06:12 AM
i love everyone thats understanding my disability. :3

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 06:19 AM
Thats extreamly unfair.
Some people cant help lagging and people cant afford better internet.
it's not their fault there ISP sucks.
Just because they have bad internet dosent mean they should just be banned form playing games online.
So just because people can't afford new computers or help it, they should be able to play modern games? It just doesn't work that way in the computing world. The reality is that people who have ****ty internet tend to NOT be able to enjoy online games. I can't play my xbox 360 online half the time because my internet just isn't up to it.

You know what games like Call of Duty do when I lag? They FRAME STUTTER. This makes it impossible for me to aim, which means I should just quit. Oh well... should I sue Activision because I paid for the game? Not really. It sucks, but just like I can't help it, I shouldn't expect others to have to deal with my misfortune as well. I've also had to stop playing another MMO I was playing because my internet was disrupting my ability to enjoy it. Sure, they don't ban me from the game, but I acknowledge that even if I have an internet connection, that doesn't mean I qualify to play all online games, or that others should be forced to let me.

I have a very unstable connection. I get disconnected a lot. Know what happens when I get disconnected for even a second during an event? I get booted upon reconnecting. Damn, they're discriminating against my unstable internet.

ohshutup55
04-17-2010, 06:26 AM
I support a lag cap on events and spars.

I think it is unfair for the majority of the players to have to confront a really bad lagger who skips from right to left in 2 seconds. I admit that it would be unfair for the players who don't have any choice but to have a satellite connection, but these laggers form about 3-4% of the entire Unholy Nations' players.

I also think it is very unfair to have a really bad lagger participate to important Tournaments such as UTC & TTUTC because they take other players' chance to win the tournament by lagging so bad. It gets very hard to hit certain laggers to the point where some players give up on fighting because they realize they have no chance to win.

I have seen a lot of times while hosting events how laggers win some events so easily just because of their excessive lag. So I would be for the lag cap solution.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 06:27 AM
Sure, the requirements aren't written on paper like say, a PC game is. But if I buy a PC game that says I meet the minimal requirements, but not the recommended requirements... I'm not going to be shocked when I'm missing out on some of the game. Just because I paid for it doesn't mean I'm entitled to experience it when I lack what is recommended.

Participating in online gaming means you're putting yourself in that situation whether it's written down or not. I've downloaded plenty of games and realized I just couldn't enjoy it with my internet connection, even though I met the minimal requirements. Now this becomes especially bad when it goes from tarnishing your personal enjoyment, to messing it up for everyone else that has to play with you.
I'm not saying be unreasonable -- if someone is warping all over the place, go ahead and kick them. Arbitrary limits on ping, like the OP seems to be suggesting, are just unfair. If it's that much of a problem, use serverside hit detection.

Really, all I hear is "stop whining, stop being butthurt"... sounds like who's really butthurt is the minority that this is going to affect. Why don't you deal with the fact that you're actually going to have to deal with having a ****ty internet connection instead of everyone else that has the displeasure of participating in events with you.
My ping right now on UN is 29 MS.

Cloven
04-17-2010, 07:16 AM
Definitely support a cap, and the cap should take averages into consideration in case (as was already stated) spikes occasionally happen. Over all this is likely the fairest method and will support the largest majority possible.

I feel for those people who are unable (for whatever reason) to obtain faster and/or more reliable internet service, however the greater majority should not be forced to suffer because of it. There is just no logic to be found in presuming otherwise in my opinion.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 07:18 AM
Definitely support a cap, and the cap should take averages into consideration in case (as was already stated) spikes occasionally happen. Over all this is likely the fairest method and will support the largest majority possible.

I feel for those people who are unable (for whatever reason) to obtain faster and/or more reliable internet service, however the greater majority should not be forced to suffer because of it. There is just no logic to be found in presuming otherwise in my opinion.
You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 07:19 AM
You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.
Ya, let's move Unholy Nation over to serverside hit detection. That'll go well... are you even listening to what you're saying?

Rufus
04-17-2010, 07:19 AM
You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

Not one single person on the server would want this.

EhDavidEh
04-17-2010, 07:37 AM
I'm gonna take a new spin on this one and not blame Chakrah for his excessive lag and refrain from calling him an ass (even though he is). Instead, I'm calling out the entire UN staff for not doing ANYTHING about it. How long has lag been a problem on Graal? Its a classic "he can't help how badly he lags" argument. Its gotten to the point where *Torrent and Aarian have been winning the TTMST, seriously people. I feel like there has to be SOME (if any) boundaries to these laggers. It may be true that the player paid the same money we did, but that doesnt necessarily mean that they deserve to enjoy the game to its fullest extent. We could simply argue "We paid more money for our good connection - we should get SOME sort of special treatment", but that would seem immature. Not only do these players not deserve to play events, they also shouldn't be allowed to participate in any major tournies. It still IS a big problem on Graal, which is sad, because you'd think by now people would have done something about it. Its gotten ridiculous and completely out of hand, and the only people who can (and probably wont) do anything is the UN staff.

I'm just interested to see if these restrictions are put into effect, how many peoples MS will drop from 600 to 250 to 100 to 49. "I FIXED MY INTERWEBZ GUYS!!!!!"

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 07:39 AM
Ya, let's move Unholy Nation over to serverside hit detection. That'll go well... are you even listening to what you're saying?

Of course I am, and I'm only talking about events/sparring. Serverside hit detection got a bad name because Classic got it wrong, but I'd bet it's preferable to clientside detection if done correctly.

Heroin
04-17-2010, 08:02 AM
graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 08:18 AM
graal is not a modern game, its over 12 years old, it worked on computers that have the same power as pocket calculators nowadays and it worked on connections that had less quality than ****ing bamboo phones.. if anyone is to blame for this, then its cyberjoueurs and their ****ty servers, their ****ty engine and all the stupid decisions they made to completely ruin the potential of this game, but hey! it's fun to see a bunch of rabid dogs fighting on a sinking ship
How is someone with a 2000ms ping their problem? Take your CJ rage somewhere that it matters, please.

Deeek
04-17-2010, 08:36 AM
No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 08:39 AM
No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.
What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant. If you want to know the difference between sparring someone with even a decent connection and a lagger, get on UN and spar Chakrah.

Cloven
04-17-2010, 08:48 AM
You're not considering other options, such as serverside hit detection.

Produce a quality method for doing this, test it, take a preference poll. If the poll substantially agrees with you then I'd have real reason to consider it. Otherwise I don't see how putting the cart before the horse is a practical option at this time.

Deeek
04-17-2010, 08:52 AM
What? No one is explaining the difference because it is irrelevant.
Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 08:54 AM
Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?
Does it matter, though? Lag is lag is lag. The advantage of lag, whether it's intentional or not, is there. People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless. All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.

Deeek
04-17-2010, 09:06 AM
People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless.
All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.
Right, because lag abusers don't exist - it's just a really silly gimmick to scapegoat players with poor connections because you people lack the required patience to deal with them (as I said before).

I've also sparred Chakrah, by the way. I'm not about to point fingers at him though because I can't beat him.

Door
04-17-2010, 09:17 AM
Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1569793#post1569793

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 09:24 AM
Okay, in other words - can anyone actually prove when someone is "intentionally" lagging or not? How could you possibly percieve lag as an intentional advantage when it sacrifices line quality?
Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 09:26 AM
i log on with high ping and log off with high ping
and even when im not at my computer i have high ping.
yeah its so not real...

Deeek
04-17-2010, 09:41 AM
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1569793#post1569793
So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?
Oh, I missed this last part. Are you aware of how this stuff works in Graal? I find it quite arrogant of you to call the people who complain scapegoats when I am getting the very fine feeling that you're not aware of anything that is being discussed here.
Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?

DustyPorViva
04-17-2010, 09:43 AM
So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?
What?

Door
04-17-2010, 09:48 AM
So? Doesn't make him a "lag abuser". He's just admitting his obvious amusement over the abundance of immaturity rampant on this server. If I said the same thing that wouldn't make me a "lag abuser", would it?

Does this statement also make you equally arrogant for refusing to adequately prove anything you've said in this thread?

Ugh. Hint: There's a big difference between poor connections and emulation. I could emulate lag, but then I'm not really lagging am I?
Sorry, let me clarify since you seem to have serious issues with selective reading. This is the part I was directing you to (although I can see how you might be tempted to look at the pretty picture and ignore those silly word things above it).
I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.
Does that help?

coreys
04-17-2010, 11:04 AM
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/Jennierocket/Graal/chakrahcheat.png

Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O

In all seriousness, though, it's perfectly reasonable to bar laggers from playing events and the like, we do it on N-Pulse. However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

But they should be allowed to spar just fine. If someone has a problem with it, just don't spar them.

salesman
04-17-2010, 04:49 PM
However, we do it more or less at the ETs discretion, which is the way it should be done.

An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

LordSquirt
04-17-2010, 05:13 PM
I don't see what the big problem is.

Lagging in spars has always been a problem. There's not really a need for this to change. You just have to learn how you can beat lag, and if you can't try and try again.

btw: whose this Chakrah guy? Is he some new player or what. I've seen him on UN recently, but never heard of him when I played.

Rufus
04-17-2010, 05:19 PM
I don't see what the big problem is.

Lagging in spars has always been a problem.

:rolleyes:

Crono
04-17-2010, 05:33 PM
Of course I am, and I'm only talking about events/sparring. Serverside hit detection got a bad name because Classic got it wrong, but I'd bet it's preferable to clientside detection if done correctly.

Yeah let's go from weeding out 3-4 players from our competitive events to shafting everyone not in the USA. Classic didn't "get it wrong", serverside HD and Graal's default gameplay style doesn't mix.

tempandrew
04-17-2010, 05:49 PM
I don't think that the intention behind the cheating should affect how it is handled/whether it is handled at all. This is kind of an extreme comparison, but I think it gets my point across: When someone is hurting people irl and is deemed both sane and guilty, he/she is kept away from the public, usually in prison. When a mentally ill person is hurting others and cannot help what he/she is doing, that person is also kept away from the public. Is it fair to the mentally ill person? No. Is it the right thing to do? Yes.[/CENTER]

We should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.
THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!


Look, this whole discussion is ridiculous. You can't compare cheating to unintentional lagging, it's one of the most outlandish statements I've heard on a serious graal discussion in a long time, and that's saying something. Chakrah paid money to play this game. Blobz did too. So did Torrent. So did Aarian. So did I. So did Rufus. So did Door. It might be annoying to spar against him, or play events against him, but too bad. Don't spar him. Kick him from events if it's really a joint agreement that his lag is too much at the moment and it's severely holding up the event. Putting a lag cap is one of the most ridiculous and unfair things I've heard. What a stupid idea. Grow up and stop complaining about his lag. He can't help it.

And guess what? Some players actually move faster than others in sparring because they have faster computers with a faster CPU. Let's ban them from spars. They have an unintentional edge over other players in spars. This is cheating.

Honestly, do you people actually read what you're typing, because you sound like *****s.

Door
04-17-2010, 06:07 PM
Funny coming from someone who lamed castle wars so hardcore so that US could get a cheap win, ruining the fun for everyone else. >=O
Yeah, and I responded to your complaint like any fair player would:

[4/10/2010 9:08:10 PM] Corey: It became pointless to play after you started laming
[4/10/2010 9:08:20 PM] Corey: lost it's fun
[4/10/2010 9:08:21 PM] Jennie: they recently moved the REAL doorblocker place where you had to get staff to move the person (in the water)
[4/10/2010 9:08:57 PM] Jennie: ok
[4/10/2010 9:08:59 PM] Jennie: Im sorry :(
[4/10/2010 9:09:09 PM] Jennie: I won't block there anymoreWe should totally start jailing people irl who spread disease unintentionally because they get sick and come in contact with someone else.

THROW 'EM IN THE BRIG, THOSE BASTARDS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!
...does the word "quarantine" ring a bell?

It doesn't matter why someone is causing damage or hurting other people or being a public nuisance. What matters is that it has to be stopped, and this is true both online and irl. Sorry unintentional laggers, I feel bad that you can't help it, but you make up less than 3% of the playerbase at any given time, and you're ruining the game for potentially 97% of the players (although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 07:00 PM
(although based on Chakrah's screencap and video, it's become clear that while his lag may be unintentional, his use of that lag to ruin the game for others is more than intentional).

this is where i'm going to settle this.

i made that video to show you what exactly i have to do to spar with my handicap. in NO way whatsoever, did i make this video to gloat that im abusing my lag to win.

Ruining the game for others using lag? No.

Harassing players, and flaming them? Yes.

This whole thread deserves about 100 boxes of tissues because all you're doing is ****ing crying. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Door
04-17-2010, 07:08 PM
this is where i'm going to settle this.

i made that video to show you what exactly i have to do to spar with my handicap. in NO way whatsoever, did i make this video to gloat that im abusing my lag to win.

Ruining the game for others using lag? No.

Harassing players, and flaming them? Yes.

This whole thread deserves about 100 boxes of tissues because all you're doing is ****ing crying. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
Your attitude toward complaints is horrendous, Chakrah. You're only proving my point further by acting like such a jerk about your lag. You've also just stated that making other players miserable is a personal goal of yours. I don't see what would stop you from using your lag fulfill this goal. Even if you don't abuse your lag now (and believing that would take a huge stretch of the imagination after all the evidence I--and you--have put forth in this thread), there is nothing stopping you from abusing it in a moment of anger or bitterness, then continuing to act like you are doing nothing wrong.

You are probably one of the worst laggers I've ever seen--and I'm not talking about the extent of lagging you do. You're just a huge jerk about it.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 07:11 PM
If someone said you were manipulating something that you clearly had no control over, and let's say you heard this about 50 times a day everyday, maybe more.
I'm sure you'd end up being a little on the edge of madness too.

tempandrew
04-17-2010, 07:22 PM
Your attitude toward complaints is horrendous, Chakrah. You're only proving my point further by acting like such a jerk about your lag. You've also just stated that making other players miserable is a personal goal of yours. I don't see what would stop you from using your lag fulfill this goal. Even if you don't abuse your lag now (and believing that would take a huge stretch of the imagination after all the evidence I--and you--have put forth in this thread), there is nothing stopping you from abusing it in a moment of anger or bitterness, then continuing to act like you are doing nothing wrong.

You are probably one of the worst laggers I've ever seen--and I'm not talking about the extent of lagging you do. You're just a huge jerk about it.

There's nothing stopping me from getting hacks and hacking on Graal, either. There's nothing stopping me from getting one of my friends to do me a favor and hack Graal to delete files. Your arguments are so flimsy, Door. And who cares if he's a jerk about his lag? Everybody on Graal is a jerk about something. Let's ban 98% of BTK from sparring because they're jerks about it. They're better at sparring than me, so god dammit, they have an unfair edge! I demand this be stopped, because I want easier sparring targets!

IT'S CHEATING!

Door
04-17-2010, 08:14 PM
There's nothing stopping me from getting hacks and hacking on Graal, either. There's nothing stopping me from getting one of my friends to do me a favor and hack Graal to delete files. Your arguments are so flimsy, Door.
What's stopping you is that there is a rule against it, and you can and will be punished for doing it. Laggers are openly allowed to continue.

Pandar, you have a terrible attitude about it too, and you need to cool your temper. Lagging is unfair because it essentially applies a huge handicap advantage onto whomever is using it. Once again, shall I direct you Chakrah's video? He shows us that utilizing his lag is a matter of taking a few steps and using spin attack.

I don't complain because I think he's better than most people at events, Castle Wars, and sparring. I complain because I know he's not.

Yet he still wins all the time solely due to his lag.

Deeek
04-17-2010, 08:21 PM
Sorry, let me clarify since you seem to have serious issues with selective reading. This is the part I was directing you to (although I can see how you might be tempted to look at the pretty picture and ignore those silly word things above it).

Does that help?

It doesn't matter why someone is causing damage or hurting other people or being a public nuisance. What matters is that it has to be stopped, and this is true both online and irl.
Wow, so much whine.

"....I just had an epiphany. Let's just take everyone with connection issues, cram them into a rocket and blast them off into the side of a mountain!" :D:D:D

The problem is though is that all you're willing to do is point fingers and put the blame on others instead of just dealing with the problem yourself. Laggyness is a tenet of almost all MMOs, and waving your arms and screaming at it like a little kid isn't going to make it go away. Grow up.

Chakrah
04-17-2010, 08:36 PM
Deek I agree, In other cases, on different MMOs I have never seen anyone punished because of their lag.

Actually, I just logged onto WoW and played for about 10 minutes, yeah I lagged but no one complained on the forums or messaged me whining because I beat them in a duel.

tempandrew
04-17-2010, 08:38 PM
Wow, so much whine.

"....I just had an epiphany. Let's just take everyone with connection issues, cram them into a rocket and blast them off into the side of a mountain!" :D:D:D

The problem is though is that all you're willing to do is point fingers and put the blame on others instead of just dealing with the problem yourself. Laggyness is a tenet of almost all MMOs, and waving your arms and screaming at it like a little kid isn't going to make it go away. Grow up.

This. I've said it many times now, but this. Lag is part of playing online games, so you have to deal with it. Just because Graal is a low-scale MMO with a more tied-society doesn't mean it grants you the right to decide who is and who isn't allowed to participate in what events. I'll say it again, this is a ridiculous and outlandish discussion. It should be open and shut. No banning lag.

And as for my "temper", I am in no way angry. I'm making points. As someone with absolutely no lag when my internet is doing fine (as much as my router sucks, more than not the speed is at top quality), this decision does not affect me at all. I'm simply defending what's right, and having a 'lag cap' is not right. It literally is class discrimination, you're trying to ban people who can't obtain or afford a better internet from specific things.

coreys
04-17-2010, 09:34 PM
An ET's discretion usually means one of two things:

1. Eh, he's my friend so I'll let it slide.
2. I hate this lagger ***** (kicks cbk1994)

Not the way it should be done.

That's why you hire good ETs. Not that UN would know anything about hiring good staff that don't abuse their power.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 09:49 PM
shafting everyone not in the USA.

In other words, people who lag?

Deeek
04-17-2010, 10:01 PM
So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know. :rolleyes:
Stupid laggy servers!

coreys
04-17-2010, 10:13 PM
So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know. :rolleyes:
Stupid laggy servers!

Then ban Stefan :D

Rufus
04-17-2010, 10:34 PM
So what're you guys gonna argue about when server latency is involved? You can't ban servers, you know. :rolleyes:
Stupid laggy servers!

Everybody experiences server lag, I don't see how this is relevant to what anybody is saying.

Crono
04-17-2010, 10:44 PM
In other words, people who lag?

No? The laggy players in question in this thread alone are all from the US anyway.

It seems everyone is raging all over the topic of lag and not getting the point of the OP. We dont need ridiculously laggy players running around in spar and event tournies. Some are legit, some are faked, either way these select few need to either fix their connection issues or be forced to sit out on these tournies.

How these players will be left out is a different story.

cbk1994
04-17-2010, 11:10 PM
No?

If no, then serverside hit detection wouldn't be a problem for you... :confused:

Crono
04-17-2010, 11:57 PM
If no, then serverside hit detection wouldn't be a problem for you... :confused:

Serverside HD inherently favors those closest to it's location. Clientside, on the other hand, doesn't. It's even.

As I said before...

I'm not against 300ms, it's hard to summarize someone's lag based soley on their latency. It's more of a subjective thing. If there's a player skipping around an entire spar ring and becomming very difficult to hit, it's not fair for the other players to have to put up with this. Simply put, it's the problem of the laggy user.

cbk1994
04-18-2010, 12:03 AM
Serverside HD inherently favors those closest to it's location. Clientside, on the other hand, doesn't. It's even.

Internet games always favor those with lower latency. If clientside is "even", then lag wouldn't be a problem, which according to this thread, it is.

Chakrah
04-18-2010, 12:08 AM
I've said it many times now, but this. Lag is part of playing online games, so you have to deal with it. Just because Graal is a low-scale MMO with a more tied-society doesn't mean it grants you the right to decide who is and who isn't allowed to participate in what events. I'll say it again, this is a ridiculous and outlandish discussion. It should be open and shut. No banning lag.


This.

salesman
04-18-2010, 12:10 AM
with most online games I play, if you lag you have the disadvantage, not the advantage. (i.e. freezing in place, loss of control, etc)

Crono
04-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Internet games always favor those with lower latency. If clientside is "even", then lag wouldn't be a problem, which according to this thread, it is.

lol @ you nitpicking down to this level. It's ok though, I'm fine with it.

Clientside HD doesn't favor anyone. Serverside HD does. The problem doesn't have to do with clientside hd suddenly changing it's behaviour due to a player's lag, it has to do with a player becomming hard to hit because he's blinking all over the spar with random bursts of speed. This thread isn't about hit detection and changing it to serverside isn't a viable solution.

In the vast majority of the spars on UN lag isn't an issue. There will always be latency, but it only becomes a problem when the other player is excessively lagging. Even then it varies but what we consider "excessive"/unacceptable is a completely different issue. The matter at hand is whether UN is willing to put their foot down, at their own descretion, and disqualify these people from our competitive tournies and events.

cbk1994
04-18-2010, 12:18 AM
lol @ you nitpicking down to this level. It's ok though, I'm fine with it.

Clientside HD doesn't favor anyone. Serverside HD does. The problem doesn't have to do with clientside hd suddenly changing it's behaviour due to a player's lag, it has to do with a player becomming hard to hit because he's blinking all over the spar with random bursts of speed. This thread isn't about hit detection and changing it to serverside isn't a viable solution.

In the vast majority of the spars on UN lag isn't an issue. There will always be latency, but it only becomes a problem when the other player is excessively lagging. Even then it varies but what we consider "excessive"/unacceptable is a completely different issue. The matter at hand is whether UN is willing to put their foot down, at their own descretion, and disqualify these people from our competitive tournies and events.

I said earlier I support excluding players from events based on the reasonable opinion of a staff member. I'm against arbitrary ping limits, which seems to be what the OP was suggesting. We even have a guideline on Era for Events Team members that players with 300 MS or more of "lag" can be removed if they're excessively disrupting the event.

Crono
04-18-2010, 12:33 AM
I said earlier I support excluding players from events based on the reasonable opinion of a staff member. I'm against arbitrary ping limits, which seems to be what the OP was suggesting.

I'm pretty sure Rufus means this too. 500ms and above is pretty much given but is there a way to measure player skipping and whatnot?

WaDaFack
04-18-2010, 12:45 AM
Sooo.... if the limit was 500 MS and it was TTUTC/UTC finals, the guy is about to win than all of the sudden the server spikes and everyone goes to 10k MS, the player would be kicked? IMO, I'd rage.

A limit isn't necessary. Chakrah has 23 Event wins, so I really don't see what the problem is. In a spar, if you're going to complain when you lose, than just don't spar him.

DustyPorViva
04-18-2010, 12:50 AM
Sooo.... if the limit was 500 MS and it was TTUTC/UTC finals, the guy is about to win than all of the sudden the server spikes and everyone goes to 10k MS, the player would be kicked? IMO, I'd rage.
No. Everyone seems to be jumping to conclusions here.

PrayDoh
04-18-2010, 02:41 AM
Sooo.... if the limit was 500 MS and it was TTUTC/UTC finals, the guy is about to win than all of the sudden the server spikes and everyone goes to 10k MS, the player would be kicked? IMO, I'd rage.

A lot of the discussion here is trying to find a solution to the problem, not necessarily trying to use a system that we've already tried and proven faulty.

A limit isn't necessary. Chakrah has 23 Event wins, so I really don't see what the problem is. In a spar, if you're going to complain when you lose, than just don't spar him.

Event wins aren't counted in team events, where his lag is causing a lot of problems (i.e. FreezeTag, TTPK)

--
The PR Admin, both GP Admins and the ET Admin all agree that it's an unfair advantage, and that players with excessive lag should be disallowed from participating in certain activities.

That being said, it sort of changes the nature of the thread. The question is no longer whether or not we should disallow people with excessive lag, but how.

I'm in favour of coreys' idea, where it'll be up to the ET/GP/Spar Mods discretion. We had this system in place a year or two ago, and only 2 players were banned for an extended period of time due to lag.(eagle4 and BlobZ)

salesman
04-18-2010, 03:08 AM
I'm in favour of coreys' idea, where it'll be up to the ET/GP/Spar Mods discretion. We had this system in place a year or two ago, and only 2 players were banned for an extended period of time due to lag.(eagle4 and BlobZ)

Banned for lagging? What the ****?

PrayDoh
04-18-2010, 03:11 AM
Banned for lagging? What the ****?

Sorry. UN has ban features for both events and spars, and thats what I was referring to.

Deeek
04-18-2010, 05:32 AM
Everybody experiences server lag, I don't see how this is relevant to what anybody is saying.
....

Serverside HD is a horrible idea, as is the suggestion of averaging out a player's latency via ping over a period of time and then just barring them from events and such if it's over a certain MS (gotta give credit to who thought this up!). Player latency is already bad enough without considering the server's - making something like this will only end in player genocide if the server hiccups. How is Server HD going to make this better? It only resets the argument that rewards players with closer/faster connections to the server and gives them an advantage over others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing as were talking about right now?

UDP is frowned upon because Graal's protocol for it sucks, and players like me who are stuck behind a router have a hard enough time already trying not to fart without the server throwing us around all over the place (I can't open a port to keep packets bouncing off my router).

CharlieM
04-18-2010, 06:01 AM
lol on era one time I was torrenting and there was a huge raid, I lagged out in the elevator and sat there holding D with PBP, I got like 20 kills 1 death over and over again because half the time they couldn't even see me it was so bad

maximus_asinus
04-18-2010, 06:10 AM
I remember a time where 56k was considered fast, we should have banned all those 28kers when we had a chance!

Demisis_P2P
04-18-2010, 06:20 AM
lol on era one time I was torrenting and there was a huge raid, I lagged out in the elevator and sat there holding D with PBP, I got like 20 kills 1 death over and over again because half the time they couldn't even see me it was so bad

That is because damage from guns is handled clientside. You don't take damage from guns unless you see the bullet hit you on your own screen.

Melee is serverside though, so if somebody ran up beside you they could punch you to death before you even realised they were there hitting you. It takes about 6 seconds for somebody with an axe to kill you if you're standing still. If you're lagging, keep moving.

All healing is handled serverside though. So you'll get warped to the hospital and still have 0 health until the serverside catches up and you'll just keep dying, over and over again.
I don't have terrible lag (about 400ms average) and sometimes when I die I get about 3 or 4 deaths.

Because of the mixed damage system lag isn't as much of an issue on Era as it is on UN, and then even on UN it only matters for players who actually skip around the screen. Laggers who move fluidly the whole time and just delay aren't that much trouble because you can see where they're going and slash infront of them.

Hiro
04-18-2010, 07:00 AM
the main problem is not that players lag; it's the players who lag for long periods of time that create the unfair advantage, whether intentional of not

can someone teach that idiot the difference between cheating on purpose and an issue you have no control about?

other than that, YES, it is unfair to the majority of the players to some degree, but expelling everyone from certain parts of the game just because of their handicap connection-wise is not the right way to go either.

if someone is actually going to look into this, good luck on making everyone happy.
this is essentially the problem, and great care has to be taken into consideration in dealing with this (assuming we are actually going to deal with it right now)

No one here has yet to explain the difference between "unintentional" lagging. Stop scapegoating people with poor connections.i'll explain the difference. when someone can control their ping, especially during events/sparring, then you realize that they are lagging on purpose. when someone is constantly lagging no matter what they are doing, then it can have the appearance of legitimacy. both cause problems, in that laggy players, who albeit are beatable at least in sparring and to a lesser extent in events, take a certain type of "playing" in order to achieve it, and it's ridiculous when these players get any sort of lag spike where you just suddenly get hit 4-5 times in a row with literally no control over it

Does it matter, though? Lag is lag is lag. The advantage of lag, whether it's intentional or not, is there. People do intentionally lag themselves, but it doesn't matter regardless. All laggers should be treated the same specifically because we can't really prove who is just abusing it and who is not.
this is true, because the problem stays the same whether being intentional or not, so the solution must affect all laggers

I don't see what the big problem is.

Lagging in spars has always been a problem. There's not really a need for this to change. You just have to learn how you can beat lag, and if you can't try and try again.

btw: whose this Chakrah guy? Is he some new player or what. I've seen him on UN recently, but never heard of him when I played.chakrah is the new torrent except not as cool (jk (8)

just because it's always been a problem doesn't mean we couldn't manage something in the ways of controlling it, or equalizing it for the fairness of the large majority of players who do not lag. so here is the question: should we really care about this argument of players not being able to get high speed internet?

let's say we do: if yes, then we have to implement a very opinionated and somewhat corruptible system of circumstantial policing. if there is any evidence of a player abusing the ability to make themselves lag then they can be banned from events/sparring for a period of time. players who constantly lag can be allowed, but if any changes to their lag at some point occurs (they do not keep up a constant lag) then they can be banned in a similar fashion to the above. obviously things like lag spikes will be taken into consideration, as we want to allow everyone to play regardless of how they lag

let's say we don't: if no, then we implement a lag threshold that can be flexible enough to allow a lag spike but throughout enough to weed out the constant/intentional laggers. this means there isn't a bias in the decision: even if you lag spike and get kicked, you went over the lag limit so you lose. even if you live in a location where you cannot get a solid internet connection, to bad: you went over the lag limit, so do what you can to get a better connection. to make this more fair (as it seems pretty harsh right now) we could allow exceptions to the limit, depending on just how laggy the person is. if someone just has a spike every 5 minutes that kicks him off but is a solid 50MS the entire rest of the time, we can obviously let him slip by so he can continue playing. maintaining a 300MS is a bit more troublesome, because that's so large a lag that it can lead to an unusual raise and ease to winning, so perhaps an exception but a banning from certain events/sparring tournaments would allow the player to continue playing but not cheapen the win when it counts

fact of the matter is, the majority of players do not lag: we cannot lessen their experience (which is how it's supposed to be experienced) for the (very) few laggers who get screwed over by lame internet companies

Deeek
04-18-2010, 07:32 AM
i'll explain the difference. when someone can control their ping, especially during events/sparring, then you realize that they are lagging on purpose. when someone is constantly lagging no matter what they are doing, then it can have the appearance of legitimacy. both cause problems, in that laggy players, who albeit are beatable at least in sparring and to a lesser extent in events, take a certain type of "playing" in order to achieve it, and it's ridiculous when these players get any sort of lag spike where you just suddenly get hit 4-5 times in a row with literally no control over it
I consider that more of a emulation of lag instead of true latency, like if I were to download a program of sorts that controlled the outflow of packets I could appear to be lagging but not in it's true entire definition, which is what I'm assuming we've been talking about here. Emulation isn't really a problem because that's obviously cheating and we all know what to do with cheaters around here :cool:

There's people who lag at no fault, people who lag and are jerks about it, and people who cheat using exploits/3rd party programs. If you don't define this then you run into a problem of ambiguity...

Stephen
04-18-2010, 08:15 AM
People abuse lag to win activities such as events and sparring are no better than those who use trainers. It is an unfair advantage, and both the players and staff are sick of it. For most people I personally believe it is controlled, and the only measure that is in place is, "If they can't be hit, they can't take part!" which doesn't do much. Most people can get at least 1 hit on someone who is lagging, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to play. Laggers are taking liberties, and with no incentives to stop lagging to win, why would anyone even bother to not lag?

I usually download overnight, but the over the last three days I decided that when I wanted to download something, I'd continue to play Graal and see how I fair up. With my torrented lag I could easily target certain individuals in events and had no problem winning a lot of the time. I've played Castle Wars with torrents on before too, and when you're constantly warping around the place you can easily take it over.

Yes there are people who have problems with lag out of their control, but to put it bluntly, that is their problem. PrayDoh has a bad connection and he hasn't just sat and made it awkward for everyone else; he has made every effort to fix the issue, but I don't see the same for anyone else that lags. The other players shouldn't be placed in the position they are because of it and even if you can't control your lag, it doesn't remove that it is unfair to everyone else. If they're over a certain ping, they should not be allowed to participate in the competitive aspects of the server, simple as that.
Would be neat if there were specific areas of spar limited by latency. 40ms and below zone one, 41-100ms for zone two, and 101ms+ are zone three.

Crono
04-18-2010, 01:35 PM
UDP is frowned upon because Graal's protocol for it sucks, and players like me who are stuck behind a router have a hard enough time already trying not to fart without the server throwing us around all over the place (I can't open a port to keep packets bouncing off my router).

How is it frowned upon when the majority of UN (according to one statistic) is using it? Slowly more and more people are realizing that forwarding a port isn't exactly difficult and there are only a few who actually have problems with it. When two players are sparring with UDP on it's silky smooth. :cool:

Would be neat if there were specific areas of spar limited by latency. 40ms and below zone one, 41-100ms for zone two, and 101ms+ are zone three.

On clientside HD that isn't really relevant. This is why I'm kind of "eh" about latency. Americans and Europeans can comfortably spar assuming neither have bad connections and both are using UDP(TCP, of course, can make anyone harder to hit and skippy). If two people have 100ms, this doesn't necessarily mean they're both laggy. Hell they're probably both from Europe and thus, because it's clientside HD, extremely smooth with no discernible delay.

coreys
04-18-2010, 04:31 PM
You should -not- have to forward a port for UDP. If you do, your router sucks for not automatically doing that, seeing as UDP is one of the major internet protocols.

UDP should be forced - just about every other online game out there uses UDP exclusively, it's the standard for any kind of online play. No other online game I know of lets you choose, that's why they don't have issues like this (because obviously you should never mix protocols like this, or problems arise).

tempandrew
04-18-2010, 06:28 PM
Would be neat if there were specific areas of spar limited by latency. 40ms and below zone one, 41-100ms for zone two, and 101ms+ are zone three.

Sounds like segregation.

Grey
04-18-2010, 06:51 PM
Would be neat if there were specific areas of spar limited by latency. 40ms and below zone one, 41-100ms for zone two, and 101ms+ are zone three.

Impractical if its forced and I believe if it was implemented it would suffer the same fate as the current rate-dependent spar rooms on UN. i.e. Rarely used, if ever.

Rufus
04-18-2010, 08:30 PM
We have one main spar on Unholy Nation and it has a queue. "Just don't spar laggers!" is not an option, and the majority should not have to just stop sparring because of one or two people. What we currently have is also why ping-specific spars would not work; it is unsociable to place everyone in different rooms, people wouldn't enjoy that. In addition to a spar queue, we also have spar tournament events which participants have no control over. You can't just choose who you want to spar, and that's the way it should be, but players should not have to sit out of these because of one or two people who are abusing lag.

Sparring isn't the only competitive aspect of the server. We have events and Castle Wars, which again you don't have the option to pick your opponents in. Each competitive area has its own dynamic, but all three are generally based upon PVP which changes a lot when you're playing against those with massive lag. Like I said in my opening post, if you are doing something that is unfair to everyone else, you shouldn't be allowed to participate until you are fair.

What is the incentive to attempt to fix the problems you are causing for other people if you're allowed to do what you're doing?

Hiro
04-18-2010, 09:54 PM
We have one main spar on Unholy Nation and it has a queue. "Just don't spar laggers!" is not an option, and the majority should not have to just stop sparring because of one or two people. What we currently have is also why ping-specific spars would not work; it is unsociable to place everyone in different rooms, people wouldn't enjoy that. In addition to a spar queue, we also have spar tournament events which participants have no control over. You can't just choose who you want to spar, and that's the way it should be, but players should not have to sit out of these because of one or two people who are abusing lag.

Sparring isn't the only competitive aspect of the server. We have events and Castle Wars, which again you don't have the option to pick your opponents in. Each competitive area has its own dynamic, but all three are generally based upon PVP which changes a lot when you're playing against those with massive lag. Like I said in my opening post, if you are doing something that is unfair to everyone else, you shouldn't be allowed to participate until you are fair.

What is the incentive to attempt to fix the problems you are causing for other people if you're allowed to do what you're doing?at the same time, you cannot tell legitimate laggers that they cannot play unless we're all willing to get rid of any laggers what-so-ever

Rufus
04-18-2010, 09:55 PM
at the same time, you cannot tell legitimate laggers that they cannot play unless we're all willing to get rid of any laggers what-so-ever

If 1 player has an unfair advantage over 10-20 players, yeah you can.

WaDaFack
04-18-2010, 10:10 PM
If 1 player has an unfair advantage over 10-20 players, yeah you can.

You lag yourself anyways, k?
Besides, half the players on the server intentionally lag themselves to get that unfair edge. So, if you where to add a lag cap to events + sparring, than I suppose half the server won't be playing events, nor sparring.
Also, there's the players who warp all over the place or have MASSIVE delay and yet still remain under 100-150 MS.
^_^

Luda
04-18-2010, 10:54 PM
half the players on the server intentionally lag themselves to get that unfair edge. So, if you where to add a lag cap to events + sparring, than I suppose half the server won't be playing events, nor sparring.

Or they'll fix it. :\

Chakrah
04-18-2010, 11:43 PM
The question still is, what if they cant.

Door
04-18-2010, 11:49 PM
Then they are forced to stop being wretched spoiled brats, and perhaps they also finally accept that sometimes they must sacrifice their own ill-begotten fortune for the sake of 97% of the population.

cbk1994
04-18-2010, 11:54 PM
stfu chakrah, you're not helping your cause

Then they are forced to stop being wretched spoiled brats, and perhaps they also finally accept that sometimes they must sacrifice their own ill-begotten fortune for the sake of 97% of the population.

They paid for the game just as much as that 97% did.

Door
04-19-2010, 12:04 AM
They paid for the game just as much as you did.
3% paid as much as 97%?! I think you need to invest in a new calculator, dude. But really, that's not even the point.

Individual rights only extend as far as the next individual. This pertains to the Internet and in real life. You are generally allowed to do what you want so long as it does not negatively affect someone else. Once a single player begins interfering with other players' experiences, that person must be handled. It's as simple as that. Whether this person can 'help' their abuse of the system should not even come into question--it's 100% irrelevant.

A player is negatively affecting many other players. That is all you need to know.

salesman
04-19-2010, 01:01 AM
They paid for the game just as much as that 97% did.

lern2math :noob:

If you buy an online game knowing that you have a ****ty connection, then that's just a bad investment on your part. Lagging on most online games usually makes it unbearable for you to play, not everyone else. Why should UN make the majority of its players suffer for the stupidity of a few?

Sure, laggers bought the game and have a right to play, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be certain requirements for events and tournaments (i.e. low ping).

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 01:16 AM
3% paid as much as 97%?! I think you need to invest in a new calculator, dude. But really, that's not even the point.
Not in volume. They paid the same as any of those 97% individually for the game. I think you know what I meant.

A player is negatively affecting many other players. That is all you need to know.

The solution is not to deny service to the paying customer.

If you buy an online game knowing that you have a ****ty connection, then that's just a bad investment on your part. Lagging on most online games usually makes it unbearable for you to play, not everyone else. Why should UN make the majority of its players suffer for the stupidity of a few?

Good question. Why do they? I've suggested solutions such as serverside hit detection, which would make it completely fair based on connection speed, but they've been shot down by people who said, gasp, that this would be unfair to laggers.

12171217
04-19-2010, 01:35 AM
I can't be bothered to read this whole thread, so this solution may have already been mentioned, but what should be done is using triggerclient and triggerserver to get a glimpse at how many packets are dropped over time. Lag, as in latency or ping, isn't the real problem, it's packets being dropped, then being resent or being lost altogether, provided it's UDP, so that way the sword swings don't occur as often, or in strange positions and directions. Check how many triggerclients and triggerservers are dropped, and if the amount is too great, it's a truly intentional cheater.

As far as latency goes, one thing you can do, if you're willing to do a rather large rewrite of the collision and movement systems, is store old player positions in arrays, then use timevar2 to match up the position of when the player pressed the sword button to exactly where both of them were at that point in time, by actually taking a few steps back in time. This is how many modern first person shooters handle lag compensation.

Door
04-19-2010, 01:38 AM
Not in volume. They paid the same as any of those 97% individually for the game. I think you know what I meant.

The solution is not to deny service to the paying customer.
But I don't think you know what I mean. If 97% of paying customers are being denied good service in a game, why should the 3% of players denying them good service be favored?

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 01:39 AM
why should the 3% of players denying them good service be favored?

Because they also paid.

Door
04-19-2010, 01:48 AM
Because they also paid.
So did hackers.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 02:01 AM
So did hackers.

But hackers broke the rules, unlike laggers.

Grey
04-19-2010, 02:08 AM
But hackers broke the rules, unlike laggers.

This. You cannot compare them unless you can definitively prove somebody is intentionally lagging themselves to gain that advantage.

Door
04-19-2010, 02:56 AM
Why are there rules against hackers? The majority of hackers are not using their hacks to actively disadvantage every other player; they are using their hacks to actively advantage their player. That is exactly what lag does.

If a person encountered a glitch on a server that allowed their player to have an advantage over other players (unlimited ammo/money, extra items, being a little faster, etc.), then this glitch would be corrected. Or at least I would hope it would. But.. but why? That's not fair to the player. He found the glitch fair and square!! He didn't do anything wrong, so why should his advantage be taken away? Because it's unfair to everyone else.

The fact that lag offers an advantage over other players is a glitch in Graal, and it needs to be fixed.

kia345
04-19-2010, 02:57 AM
I was ignoring this thread until I got cheated out of an event win because the ET was bros with Chakrah and his lag.

Screw you UN.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 03:04 AM
Why are there rules against hackers? The majority of hackers are not using their hacks to actively disadvantage every other player; they are using their hacks to actively advantage their player.

...what? Graal and other online games are built around competition. By giving themselves unfair advantages they are removing an advantage from others.

And yes, lag can give players an unfair advantage, but the difference between lagging and hacking is that laggers have no control over their lag. Is it really so hard to understand that? Sure, there are people who take advantage of their lag, or even purposefully lag, but there are also honest people with poor connections who would be locked out of a game they paid for.

Rufus
04-19-2010, 03:13 AM
By giving themselves unfair advantages they are removing an advantage from others.

Perfect logic right here folks. How come Era kicks laggy players? You never responded.

Door
04-19-2010, 03:13 AM
...what? Graal and other online games are built around competition. By giving themselves unfair advantages they are removing an advantage from others.

And yes, lag can give players an unfair advantage
okay.

_Z3phyr_
04-19-2010, 03:18 AM
I was ignoring this thread until I got cheated out of an event win because the ET was bros with Chakrah and his lag.

Screw you UN.
i was *****ing at ph8 when he did it to my team the round before yours!

kia345
04-19-2010, 03:21 AM
Sure, there are people who take advantage of their lag, or even purposefully lag, but there are also honest people with poor connections who would be locked out of a game they paid for.

So if I hack to help people, it's okay? As long as I'm not using it for an unfair advantage?

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 03:27 AM
okay.

What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?

_Z3phyr_
04-19-2010, 03:28 AM
and by this logic it should be okay to give me 20 hearts. as long as i'm hittable, right?

edit:
What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?
hell to the yes i would, and so would all of the other video game developers. they do it all the time: they're called ****ing system requirements!

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 03:33 AM
hell to the yes i would, and so would all of the other video game developers. they do it all the time: they're called ****ing system requirements!

You would penalize players with better computers?

kia345
04-19-2010, 03:34 AM
You would penalize players with better computers?

Would you offer an advantage to people with slower computers?

"hey bro, ur connection is bad. here, u play these events. u'll win. dese other ppl who love to play? who also spent money? screw equality bro, u win"

Door
04-19-2010, 03:34 AM
What's your point? Would you penalize players with better computers because they have an advantage over those with slower ones?
No, because they are playing Graal in the way it was meant to be played, and they make up 97% of the population.

More importantly, however, let me call you out on downright ignoring Rufus when he asked you an extremely pertinent question: How come Era kicks laggy players? You never responded.
Maybe I should go play Era. Seems like they have the right idea there.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 03:40 AM
More importantly, however, let me call you out on downright ignoring Rufus when he asked you an extremely pertinent question

I already answered his "extremely pertinent question":

I'm not saying be unreasonable -- if someone is warping all over the place, go ahead and kick them. Arbitrary limits on ping, like the OP seems to be suggesting, are just unfair. If it's that much of a problem, use serverside hit detection.

Rufus
04-19-2010, 03:43 AM
I already answered his "extremely pertinent question":
I'm not saying be unreasonable -- if someone is warping all over the place, go ahead and kick them. Arbitrary limits on ping, like the OP seems to be suggesting, are just unfair. If it's that much of a problem, use serverside hit detection.

Why are they kicked?

salesman
04-19-2010, 03:55 AM
But hackers broke the rules, unlike laggers.

Why are there rules against hacking? It gives you an unfair advantage over other players. Now, just some food for thought, let's take a look at this statement which is pretty much the only argument laggers have going for them in this thread:
laggers have no control over their lag.

what if hackers had no control over hacking? I know it sounds ridiculous, but for sake of argument, bear with me. Would you allow these players to be invincible, run at Mach 10, etc just because they have no control over it? No, you would not because like I've said 12304918401293 times in this thread -- an unfair advantage is an unfair advantage.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 03:55 AM
Why are they kicked?

Because right now on Era serverside hit detection is unusable; we've tried it and are reserving it for new events because of the nature of projectiles.

Rufus
04-19-2010, 03:56 AM
It's an unfair advantage.

Ding ding ding!

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 04:03 AM
I've never said that lag can't give an advantage; players also have unfair advantages for all sorts of things: computer power, location, language skills, reaction time, and so on. A player cannot control the quality of their internet connection, therefore they should not be penalized for it when the server is not even willing to take appropriate steps to make it fair for all players (read: serverside hit detection).

kia345
04-19-2010, 04:41 AM
A player cannot control the quality of their internet connection

Yeah man, the government provided me with a terrible internet service, it's not like we live in a world where people are capable of purchasing higher end entertainment products and services in order to keep up with the advancing times, wat2do comrade :confused::confused:

I'm going to go drive my model T down the road at 20mph, and I'll be damned if the police stop me for going too slow.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 04:48 AM
Yeah man, the government provided me with a terrible internet service, it's not like we live in a world where people are capable of purchasing higher end entertainment products and services in order to keep up with the advancing times, wat2do comrade :confused::confused:

I'm going to go drive my model T down the road at 20mph, and I'll be damned if the police stop me for going too slow.

An internet connection is not a car; your options are limited based on where you live. Some players have a choice of either satellite or dial-up internet.

Rufus
04-19-2010, 04:56 AM
An internet connection is not a car; your options are limited based on where you live. Some players have a choice of either satellite or dial-up internet.

Neither satellite nor dial-up is recommended for online gaming. Look on any website, any ISP, any speed tests. What would you say to a player who purchased a new computer (that was not recommended for gaming, but they went for it anyway as it's all they could afford) is complaining that they can't play a certain game? The same applies here.

Hiro
04-19-2010, 04:58 AM
we could just start banning people with a constant lag, where "constant lag" is at the discretion of the banner

fowlplay4
04-19-2010, 05:04 AM
Damn this is like.. Era vs UN Thread Wars.

cbk1994
04-19-2010, 05:23 AM
What would you say to a player who purchased a new computer (that was not recommended for gaming, but they went for it anyway as it's all they could afford) is complaining that they can't play a certain game"

"Did the game say, before purchasing, that you would be unable to play on your computer?"

The GraalOnline recommended (and required) system (http://graalonline.com/kingdoms/downloads/) is very generic: "Internet Connection (Modem or LAN)". That doesn't even specify a type of internet connection.

WaDaFack
04-19-2010, 05:51 AM
When UN had 200players, their where a load of laggers. The community diminished to 60-90people, and you decide to complain now? Heh.

salesman
04-19-2010, 05:58 AM
"Did the game say, before purchasing, that you would be unable to play on your computer?"

The GraalOnline recommended (and required) system (http://graalonline.com/kingdoms/downloads/) is very generic: "Internet Connection (Modem or LAN)". That doesn't even specify a type of internet connection.

UN can certainly change the terms for participating in their events and tournaments...that has nothing to do with Graal's system requirements.

tempandrew
04-19-2010, 06:52 AM
This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.

Demisis_P2P
04-19-2010, 09:01 AM
I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.

MysticX2X
04-19-2010, 05:53 PM
I pay $110 a month for 20MB/s Cable and I still have a 400ms latency on Era.
I've spent over $800 on routers and wireless cards to try and make my connection as fast as possible.
I have less than 200ms latency on American CS:S servers, and about the same on American WoW servers. So I'm not sure why my latency is almost double on Graal (I have UDP enabled).

There are about 8 people who all live in the same city as me and play Graal. 5 of them that I know personally all have the same ISP (Optus) and we all delay about the same.
Some of them are terrible sparrers (sorry Isra) and don't get kicked from Events for lagging; they're a free kill essentially. But my brother and I are both good sparrers and we do get kicked from events for lagging.

How is that fair?

I've played Graal on my university's internet connection (at the time universities and a few private companies had the only fiber lines in Australia). And I was just as good at sparring without lag, if not better, because I could actually see my opponent moving in real time as well. Normally I need to adjust to allow for the same 400ms delay that they would need to allow for to hit me as well.
I'm fairly confident that I could still win the majority of events that I enter even without my lag.

So then how is it fair to kick somebody from an event they probably would have won anyway just because they lag?

EDIT: bolded what I think is a key point that makes lag a lot more fair than what people are making it out to be.
I'm pretty sure you're an Era player, and there is a vast difference in the competitive style on both servers. I had played Era very very briefly in 2008 and I realized I was worse with lag. Whenever I lagged on UN, I would win a majority of spars with relative ease. I wish I could be more elaborate but I am not very knowledgeable with the technicality behind latency and Graal.

Point is, most people aren't better without their lag when sparring on a server like Unholy Nation.

Door
04-19-2010, 07:30 PM
This has turned less into a debate and more into spiteful post after spiteful post. To think I was criticized in this thread for having an 'attitude'; most of you are becoming incredibly snippy as the page count gets higher and higher. Many of you really need to grow up, and I think those of who I'm talking about know who they are. A 'lag cap' is not proposed in any other game but Graal, ironically the same game that is notorious for it's whiny and bratty playerbase that can never have things not go their way. You're not going to get away with a solution that's one-sided. Because you'll continuously get *****ing and whining from whatever side didn't get their way.

Unless you can all start wiping the tears off your cheeks and actually discussing this like civilized human beings, good luck finding a solution, because the only logical answer to this is a compromise that both sides can live under.

tl;dr - Grow up and make this an actual discussion.
Haha, once again Pandar, you have a terrible attitude. You are complaining that the thread has just become a slew of useless and bitter posts, but the most useless bitter post in quite a while has been yours.

What does your post even say, Pandar? You complained about the general topic of lag caps, which I will address below, then vaguely suggested that we need a compromise in half of a sentence (as though that qualifies as a contribution to the debate or even as a remotely enlightening statement), but the rest of your post is used to accuse people of crying and whining. Nice.

But I digress.

The reason why no other game has a lag cap is that no other game has a massive glitch regarding lag--one that offers an advantage to people using insufficient system requirements. (And one that is envied and emulated by those with sufficient system requirements in order to supplement their own performance.)

Nota Bene: If you intended your post as some kind of symbolic satire through the use of blatant hypocrisy (like an interpretive dance that leaves viewers gagging, but they later find out that the performance was intended to mock interpretive dancing), then bang up job, mate!

tempandrew
04-19-2010, 10:34 PM
Useless and bitter? I'm telling you you guys are going to get no where with actually discussing the issue at hand with each other, laggers to non-laggers, pro-lagcap to con-lagcap, and to make a compromise to appease each side.

I'm not sure how it's done in Doorland, but in human society, to solve problems, the most effective method is usually to calmly discuss it in an organize manner and to step-by-step go over things you could do to solve the problem. We've thrown our opinions in, that was step 1. The thread is delving deeper into useless banter, crying one way or the other, and not progressing to another step. Before you criticize me, saying I said nothing in my post, read the entire thing, please.



Whatever, though. Good luck finding a solution. I'm sure whatever decision that you guys reach will end up in one side becoming extremely *****y and moany, just like EVERY other decision made on Graal. You people can only see in black and white.

Hiro
04-20-2010, 03:00 AM
A lot of the discussion here is trying to find a solution to the problem, not necessarily trying to use a system that we've already tried and proven faulty.



Event wins aren't counted in team events, where his lag is causing a lot of problems (i.e. FreezeTag, TTPK)

--
The PR Admin, both GP Admins and the ET Admin all agree that it's an unfair advantage, and that players with excessive lag should be disallowed from participating in certain activities.

That being said, it sort of changes the nature of the thread. The question is no longer whether or not we should disallow people with excessive lag, but how.

I'm in favour of coreys' idea, where it'll be up to the ET/GP/Spar Mods discretion. We had this system in place a year or two ago, and only 2 players were banned for an extended period of time due to lag.(eagle4 and BlobZ)decision has already been made, now it's up to you to complain

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 03:32 AM
I agree, Rufus and Xaphan should no longer be allowed to participate in sparring or events.

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 03:36 AM
Perfect logic right here folks.


as a matter of fact, it is.

If you weren't retarded you'd be able to tell that sparring is a zero sum game. alas

jorollychu
04-20-2010, 10:29 AM
Agree. Rufus has one of the most annoying subtle lags on graal. Should force UK people to have their own sparring tournaments.

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 10:42 AM
if people were actually choosing to not participate in events or spars because Chakrah is there I might believe this is an actual problem but right now it just seems like some "sky is falling" attitude aimed at someone who has pissed Rufus off.

Crono
04-20-2010, 09:24 PM
so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 09:27 PM
so basically the thread is 13 pages long because people either

a) dont get it
or
b) trowlin

or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

DustyPorViva
04-20-2010, 10:03 PM
or there's people who get it entirely disagree for entirely reasonable reasons.

if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.
So they should stop playing the game just to try to make a point against less than a handful of players?

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 10:10 PM
So they should stop playing the game just to try to make a point against less than a handful of players?

I'm not saying they should actively protest, what I am saying is it clearly isn't bothering them as much as they claim if they're still participating with him there.

Deeek
04-20-2010, 10:11 PM
if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums.
Of course that's not going to happen because nobody legitimately cares about it.

DustyPorViva
04-20-2010, 10:12 PM
I'm not saying they should actively protest, what I am saying is it clearly isn't bothering them as much as they claim if they're still participating with him there.
Maybe they care more about trying to milk what little enjoyment can be got from this game without sacrificing it all because of one or two other players.

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Maybe they care more about trying to milk what little enjoyment can be got from this game without sacrificing it all because of one or two other players.

well then it seems like they're still enjoying it regardless of Chakrah being there?

Crono
04-20-2010, 11:09 PM
if people were actively protesting laggers being in events (IE by leaving) rather than just crying about it on the forums, you might convince me this is really game ruining. However, people still seem to be participating with Chakrah around so it just seems to be a witch hunt.

some ET's will remove you if you're too laggy, others wont. i think this thread is trying to standardize it on UN and i cant possibly see why you'd disagree with it.

Mark Sir Link
04-20-2010, 11:46 PM
some ET's will remove you if you're too laggy, others wont. i think this thread is trying to standardize it on UN and i cant possibly see why you'd disagree with it.

I tend to not like anything that excludes players whether it be a guild house you need a tag to get into or a player house or an event that you need a good enough connection for.

I don't like the idea of development time being used if not every player can use the outcome.

Crono
04-21-2010, 12:08 AM
I tend to not like anything that excludes players whether it be a guild house you need a tag to get into or a player house or an event that you need a good enough connection for.

I don't like the idea of development time being used if not every player can use the outcome.

You prefer to allow a single player to become an inconvenience for everyone else involved in a competitive event? You prefer to see people artificially lag themselves to gain an upper hand?

jorollychu
04-21-2010, 12:10 AM
It looks to me like Kevin will do anything he can to disagree with Rufus. Pointless vendetta created by his masters (Terazel Tenjin) at the other forum.

Mark Sir Link
04-21-2010, 12:16 AM
You prefer to allow a single player to become an inconvenience for everyone else involved in a competitive event? You prefer to see people artificially lag themselves to gain an upper hand?

I'd prefer to see no one excluded for any reason besides hacking or exploiting. I have had awful ISPs in the past that were probably on par or worse than Chakrah's current and if you think it's frustrating to play against him, it's definitely worse to be him.

I don't see any evidence that he is artificially lagging.

I have seen much worse connections/lags than his so I don't understand why this witch hunt has begun in the first place. What did he do, piss a bunch of people off by beating them in a spar?

Crono
04-21-2010, 12:18 AM
I'd prefer to see no one excluded for any reason besides hacking or exploiting.

Ok.

I don't see any evidence that he is artificially lagging.

I have seen much worse connections/lags than his so I don't understand why this witch hunt has begun in the first place. What did he do, piss a bunch of people off by beating them in a spar?

Who's "he"? I never referred to anyone, between us.

Mark Sir Link
04-21-2010, 12:19 AM
Ok.



Who's "he"? I never referred to anyone, between us.


It's fairly obvious that everyone in this thread is screaming for Chakrah's blood, spare me the bull****.

Crono
04-21-2010, 12:21 AM
It's fairly obvious that everyone in this thread is screaming for Chakrah's blood, spare me.

Am I?

sidthegreat2005
04-21-2010, 12:29 AM
I think anything that needs to be said on this topic has been said. We'll make a decision on this soon.